FrothyJay

I stayed sober for 11 years. Not miserable, not white-knuckling, but certainly not recovering or sane about my alcoholism.

The truth I would have told you then is that I was not going to drink again. And boy, would I have sounded convincing. I would have meant it.

The truth I will tell you now is that the above statement was insanity masquerading as commitment. My truth now is that I am unable to not drink without a power greater than myself operating in my life.

The periods of sobriety I achieved on my own willpower always looked and felt pretty good until they ended. "Suddenly" happened.

susanlauren

BacktoSquareOne,
My perception did not define and was not reality. I thought my perception was reality, but actual experience showed me otherwise. I thought that as long as I didn't pick up a drink, I would be fine. Don't drink, can't trigger the physical craving for alcohol, can't end up on a binge, alcohol problem solved. That was my perception.

The reality is that I have these "mental twists" and "blank spots" where my thinking convinces me that it is perfectly okay to drink again. "This time it will be different." "I deserve it." "A drink or two won't hurt me." Or I don't think at all, I just do it. Not drinking does not solve the problem with the mental obsession about alcohol/drinking.

Bottom line: I can't drink because I cannot control my drinking. I can't stop drinking because my "mental twists" and "blank spots" will cause me to pick back up again. That is what powerlessness is.
Susan

BackToSquareOne

Yes Susan, but your screwed up perception did define your reality when you were drinking or you wouldn't have done it. It would seem that through AA you changed your thinking or perception of reality.

Supercrew

I think the power/powerless argument lies with the alcoholic. Some people feel that they were able to abstain happily for extended periods of time yet have a lapse in judgement, so basically if they if they made a mistake did they really have power to begin with? Others may not drink for extended periods of time but still obsessively think about drinking so even though thery aren't drinking being that they think about it they feel powerless.

I feel that at one point I did feel helpless, but maturity helped me realize that I was never really powerless, I just continued because that is what I had done for a long long time. I felt there was no other option, until I matured and realized that what I was perceiving wasn't real, it was a barrier my brain built to protect my my vice and keep me drinking.

If people need to feel they are powerless great, I just needed to mature.

slugger9787

I am powerless over my diabetic disease.

I can use what power I have and take my insulin daily. The insulin treats the disease.

I can use what power I have and take the medicine for my disease of alcoholism as well. The first medicine I must take is abstinence. By my adherence to and affirmation of abstinence, I am subscribing to the fact that

I have no power over my disease's appetite for alcohol. Either while I am abstinent and especially when not abstinent.

By abstinence, that means that I am using my will power to not drink. Whether I choose to do that "one day at a time" or "forever" is not speaking to the powerlessness that I have with regards to the disease. Those are just current and futuristic periods of time.

I look in my past and can tell that I had no control. No willpower, or that I was powerless.

I need to preserve my ego's dignity, I will look at my past and say that I just made wrong choices. Really? then why the fear that drinking one will be a wrong choice if one still has power. That is not logical.

onlythetruth

Yes. There is a black and white aspect to it, which is why I suspect that the concept of "powerlessness" resonates with some people. For myself, I can appreciate and accept the fundamental reality that I cannot drink safely, ever, period, without viewing myself as powerless.

What this discussion shows, though, is that there is no one "right" way or "wrong" way to view the matter. People see things differently, and that's ok.

OTT

Zencat

That's the best explanation I have read yet. Thank you.

I could easily see for myself, depending how I would interpret my experiences in active alcoholism, that I was powerless. I feel that many alcoholics experience much the same symptoms, yet its how that experience is filtered through perception is what decides if one is powerless or not. I experienced a loss of control, both on when I would drink and how much I would drink. I could easily translate that experience as powerless or translate it another way as symptom a of alcoholism.

Once I put in place an addiction treatment plan, I regain recover from my symptoms. So then powerlessness, if I see it as a symptom, goes away with being recovered from active alcoholism.

April999

For me, accepting that I can't drink responsibly ever, I think has come with getting older, I thought a lot differently in my early 20's than I do now. When I came to terms with the fact that I will die from this if I don't stop, I stopped. I can somewhat understand peoples powerlessness, but I think in the end, it is me who has to choose whether or not to drink, even if I have to make that choice frequently. Ive only been sober for 11 months, and have had a 1 day slip up, about half way through. To tell you the truth, if I only drank 1 day a year, I would consider this a success. No days a year would be better, but Im learning more and more everyday.

slugger9787

Recovery from alcoholism is 5% spontaneous. (no AA)

This is consistent with 35 out of 36 alcoholics
die before thay admit complete defeat.

105/108 die before hitting the ultimate bottom.

With outside help (AA) the recovery is about 75%

105/108 die before they discover that they are powerless.

Supercrew

I read that AA is 5%, not 75%.

Also could it be that AA is taking credit for people recovering who finally matured and would have recovered anyway?

I recovered on my own, with my own program, and I had all of the so called "spiritual awakening" feeling, and lost the obsessive thoughts about alcohol after about 90 days. If I would have attended AA and got the exact same result from abstinence and daily action for self improvement, would it be safe to assume that I would be saying I was saved by AA? When the reality was I finally decided to take action in solving my drinking problem, I finally matured enough to make my mind up, and I decided I would be happy with that decision.

Obviously if you want to perceive yourself as powerless you can, but I think powerless vs. not ready to take immediate daily action to solve the problem, might be interchangable.

Mark75

Good for you, supercrew... awesome, really... Now if everyone could be... just like you! Then all anyone has to do is grow up!!

Enoy

http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_bigbook_chapt3.pdf



It's been my understanding that the idea is that we are powerless over alcohol "ON OUR OWN". We do have some power , the power to make certain decisions to keep us from drinking ( such avoidance of situations in the beginning, going to meetings , working with others , eating candy ... etc )

But we also need help and support from our Higher power or family or friends etc..... Basically that we can't control it all by ourselves with out the proper support systems in place.

Obviously these don't apply to EVERYONE, but to almost all of us real alcoholics it does.

Enoy

This is possible. But you've got to remember that this rating is skewed. Courts here in the states send you straight to AA whether you want it or not for DUI's. In every meeting I attend there are atleast 20% that are there by force not choice. Now keep in mind that I tend to see the same volontary folks in there week in and week out. The mandatories shift and go.

So in a group of 30 people. 6 of them are forced. the following week 4 new ones are there , the following week 5 new ones.... then all 6.

So now in the course of a month we have 21/24 people that didn't want to be there or get well.... They went right back out and started dirnking again or never tried to stop. (Like the kid today that I watched take a schedule and map out a full month of meetings and fill in the information he learned at each one IN ADVANCE to fill his quota.... I don't expect to see him again for a while.)

When AA was started in 1934 it was strictly voluntary and people that WANTED to quit. Not the ones forced to go.

I went because I was forced back in 2002 after a DUI. stayed sober 3 years. This time I am going because I want to.

You'll also see lots of people that AA worked for a given amount of time... ( probably closer to 60% ) but getting complacent or deciding to stop attending thinking they were "healed", only to backslide a short while later.

Kjell

Wowza! What a thread and just skimming through, shows me that once again we are our own problem

...and that gosh darn ego of ours - what to do when we don't even know it's getting in the way?

We don't know, what we don't know and our stories aren't over with. There is much to be told, still.

My viewpoint is that if I simply could have outthunk my alcoholism, then would I even be an alcoholic to begin with? If I had the power, why didn't I use it?

Just my 2-cents and respect to all.

Kjell~

Supercrew

I know it is hard for some to see, and it isn't as simple as "growing up". I battled for over 10 years, because although part of me wanted to quit, I truly didn't believe (subconsciously) it would be possible for me to quit and be happy. I didn't have a model of someone I knew closely who had done it, and all I knew was life with alcohol. There were no other real aspects to my life. Alcohol was everything to me.

I understand that AAer's might take offense to my use of the word "maturity", but I had to mature to a point that I could accept not drinking, consciously and subconsciously. I could almost always make a conscious effort in the short term to not drink, but drinking was brainwashed so deep in my head that I would always go back to it. I had to have a maturity change on the subconscious level to be alright with never drinking again, and to be happy with that decision.

Until that change was made internally through practice and determination, I would still be doing the same damn thing, thinking about drinking, drinking, regretting I drank.

If AA helps you flip that subconscious switch....good for you, but for me to say I can't keep myself from putting a bottle to my lips, which was killing me and ruining my life, and be happy about that decision on my own, would mean that I am not capable of doing anything on my own.

Powerlessness is obviously in the eye of the beholder, and if you truly believe that you need to have a spiritual awakening through an HP to get this power then great! I would like to think we have it all along but just didn't have the tools to find it for a period of time.

Supercrew

I think this should be called the Wizard of Oz thread. The Lion wanted courage, the Tin Man wanted a heart, and the Scarecrow wanted a brain, so they went to the Wizard. The Wizard showed them that they had it all along, they just couldn't see it in themselves.

Kjell

Supercrew - change a few key words and we have a lot of similarities. I love the maturation process point and boy have I had to do A LOT of that in my 18 months of sobriety.

Obviously, one main difference is I strive for God's will, not my own, and attempt to live a spiritual life, but I can relate to much of what you just wrote.

Kjell~

Kjell

...and the AA-to-be wanted a God, wanted spirituality, and He was there, all along.

Kjell~

Supercrew

Kjell, I get it, my problem was I don't believe in a God or an HP. If I am adamant in my beliefs whether the be true or false how could I ever really succeed in that program?

Short answer is I couldn't. But if I can do it without the spiritual component, which I did, it has made my beliefs more strong that the power is inside us. Sorry for the Wizard of Oz thing, it was probably in poor taste, but it struck a chord with me while I was typing the previous post.

Mark75

Some would call that a spiritual awakening... LOLOLOLOLOL