The Concept Of Powerlessness
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Columbus, Ohio
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Chops: "Doesn't the book say at "certain times" we are powerless over the first drink? So if it is only at certain times I fail to see how I can be completely powerless."
The problem, Chops, is that I don't know when those "certain times" are going to happen. If I knew that Wednesday morning at 10 am I am going to have a "peculiar mental twist" that was going to lead me back to drinking, I could prepare myself. Because I don't know, I can't plan and prepare and I can't prevent it from happening. All it takes is one "certain times" to lead me back into the hell of active alcoholism.
If I can't prevent something from happening, I think it is a fair statement to say that I am powerless over it. If I knew when those "certain times" were going to occur, then I wouldn't be powerless at all. I view this as an all-or-nothing proposition. In order to be protected from those "certain times" (which I can't predict or foretell or prevent), I need to have a solution (a power greater than myself) that provides a defense all the time.
Susan
The problem, Chops, is that I don't know when those "certain times" are going to happen. If I knew that Wednesday morning at 10 am I am going to have a "peculiar mental twist" that was going to lead me back to drinking, I could prepare myself. Because I don't know, I can't plan and prepare and I can't prevent it from happening. All it takes is one "certain times" to lead me back into the hell of active alcoholism.
If I can't prevent something from happening, I think it is a fair statement to say that I am powerless over it. If I knew when those "certain times" were going to occur, then I wouldn't be powerless at all. I view this as an all-or-nothing proposition. In order to be protected from those "certain times" (which I can't predict or foretell or prevent), I need to have a solution (a power greater than myself) that provides a defense all the time.
Susan
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Posts: 645
When I think about it, there are only "certain times" when I need to wear my seat belt (i.e., when I get into an auto accident). But if I don't wear my seat belt all the time, I am likely to find myself head-first into the windshield. My policy, for myself and anyone who rides in my vehicle, is 100% seat belt use 100% of the time. It's safer that way. Susan
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Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: New Jersey
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Originally Posted by susanlauren 
When I think about it, there are only "certain times" when I need to wear my seat belt (i.e., when I get into an auto accident). But if I don't wear my seat belt all the time, I am likely to find myself head-first into the windshield. My policy, for myself and anyone who rides in my vehicle, is 100% seat belt use 100% of the time. It's safer that way. Susan
I was able to abstain from alcohol for 11 years. Then I wasn't. My number came up. And then it was like being dragged around by a gorilla for 2 years.
"Whether such a person can quit upon a nonspiritual basis depends upon the extent to which he has already lost the power to choose whether he will drink or not." BB p. 34, More About Alcoholism
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Originally Posted by Chops
Doesn't the book say at "certain times" we are powerless over the first drink? So if it is only at certain times I fail to see how I can be completely powerless.
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Join Date: May 2011
Location: TN
Posts: 162
Just a hypothetical question. If you suddenly found out through some scientific discovery tomorrow that there was no such thing as your HP of your own choosing, would you automatically go back to drinking? Would you lose all the power that you gained through your HP during your spiritual awakening. Basically would you be powerless again? Would you give up?
I have no ddesire to start any sort of spiritual/religous debate over this post, BUT the question as posed seems moot to me as my sense of a higher power, or anyone elses, be it God, Jesus, Allah, Muhhamed, the door-knob, etc, cannot be credited or discredited through any form of science. This alone was, and remains, the hardest part of the program of alcoholics anonymous for me to grasp. I must have faith in some power that is greater than myself without any form of scientific evidence of that power's existence.
I have no ddesire to start any sort of spiritual/religous debate over this post, BUT the question as posed seems moot to me as my sense of a higher power, or anyone elses, be it God, Jesus, Allah, Muhhamed, the door-knob, etc, cannot be credited or discredited through any form of science. This alone was, and remains, the hardest part of the program of alcoholics anonymous for me to grasp. I must have faith in some power that is greater than myself without any form of scientific evidence of that power's existence.
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Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 581
Originally Posted by Supercrew
Just a hypothetical question. If you suddenly found out through some scientific discovery tomorrow that there was no such thing as your HP of your own choosing, would you automatically go back to drinking? Would you lose all the power that you gained through your HP during your spiritual awakening. Basically would you be powerless again? Would you give up?
See, I believe the steps are a process of ego-deflation and the reduction of self. That's what gives me power-- I've cleared the weeds and underbrush and I'm allowing the spirit that's always been there to navigate more. It's not so much about a deity in a robe on a cloud.
Today's Muse
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West end
Posts: 1,081
This concept is an easy one for me. My insane drinking has proven it hundreds if not thousands of times. I can't drink. If I start, I can't stop. I am powerless once I take that first drink. If I don't pick up that first drink, the obsession doesn't take over.
Staying sober is easy for me today. Before, after a binge, I was like a caged animal who would do anything for the next drink. Drinking is a choice. I guess that would be a part of the "free will" concept. It wasn't a choice before. Getting sober is a combination of things, eliminating the alcohol from the system and ridding the symptoms of why we drink. Cleaning out the cobwebs is a huge part of getting and staying sober. It didn't just happen. I had to learn not to pick up and it was the hardest challenge I have ever encountered.
Today, I don't desire to drink. I don't dance with the devil by thinking this time will be different. I know better. I lived the lie and want no part of it. Acceptance is key...
Staying sober is easy for me today. Before, after a binge, I was like a caged animal who would do anything for the next drink. Drinking is a choice. I guess that would be a part of the "free will" concept. It wasn't a choice before. Getting sober is a combination of things, eliminating the alcohol from the system and ridding the symptoms of why we drink. Cleaning out the cobwebs is a huge part of getting and staying sober. It didn't just happen. I had to learn not to pick up and it was the hardest challenge I have ever encountered.
Today, I don't desire to drink. I don't dance with the devil by thinking this time will be different. I know better. I lived the lie and want no part of it. Acceptance is key...
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Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 567
ok, my apologies.
Powerless BEFORE the first drink,
Well,
An Illustration of my own experience:
My own experiences spans over that 35 year drinking.
To clarify, I thought that drinking sensibly is learnt as we tumble from teenage, young adult, marriages, divorces, single again phases, at some stage I will "learn to drink".
This seed of thought was planted in teenage years at work by those I drank with who some seemed to have normal living styles.
Some would come to the bar, 1 or 2 beers on pay day and go home.
I was either kicked out, not served, left that bar to go to another bar.
By Monday I was broke and had credit arrangements for lunch.
Pay day came round again, pay my credit, and broke again on Monday.
It seemed I could only break the credit cycle when holiday pay came around cos we were paid in a lump sum and was not, well not suppose to be back at work for 4 weeks.
I was back in 2.
No money.
So from 1974 to 2007, give or take a few years, round up/down, 35, I always thought, "I'll get it right one day".
Now the parrallel is this......,
The fade-out of the last black-out drunkeness was on average around 2 weeks.
I thought no one remembered because the memory or the force, or the "gravity" faded. It seemed very distant.
The "gravity" of what happened at weddings, outings, arrests for drunk and disorderly etc etc, with the exception of court appearance dates, seemed to fade.
So my delusion was, "I don't remember, therefore they don't remember because we ALL fade like that and life goes on".
Powerless before the drink for me was, after that 2 week binge, "it's Friday night again, time to party"!
My mind will obssess about what I can do, and not get so drunk. I will try something different.
Where are my friends?!!
1. I don't want to see them cos they are boring drinkers.
2. They don't want to see me cos the last time things got messy.
3. girl freind/s, gone.
Solution:
look for "new beginning". Try to "learn to drink".
These "new beginnings" are usually people, places and things but the lights seems have gotten dimmer.
It becomes "places and things", then goes to "things" and my "thing" became work-gambling-drinking-family court, then the only thing left is the drink,
still wondering, "one day I'll get it right" and win.
The above illustration is not unique, I have heard these similarities in principle many times and identify with the unmanageabilty, 2nd half of Step 1
What does the Big Book say?
The key here I identify with is;
t with sufficient force
sufficient force
Powerless before the first drink, seems to be "mind".
"Insufficinet force"
I am powerless to "feel" the damage I caused, the feelings of others.
If I was arrested, the charge would be read out, get fined and pay the fine.
My mind would still justify it as, "expenses!"
Damage to property, mirrors and bar windows for being kicked out by bouncers, "a good night out", IF I got away with it, seldom.
Insufficient force to feel what this is doing, or in denial to accept it is directly or indirectly hindering my position in society to make a living.
To me, it was water off a ducks back, and I will drink again because my mind will eventually self delude and start to justify or need a drink to calm the restlesness.
That's been the cycle all along.
Ok, I can guess the next thing is the HP thing.
Illustration:
can't stop to drink once I start to drink, can't stop thinking about a drink and did not realize I was obsessing about that thought of a drink.
What are the rules to live cos mine are not working and by now all family and freinds has moved on while I still got that teenage seed, "learn to drink" seeded by a human 35 years ago (2007).
What now?
What's the next card ?
My mind said, "ring AA and to find out why the change in personality after the first drink".
That call diluted that teenage seed.
Powerless BEFORE the first drink,
Well,
An Illustration of my own experience:
My own experiences spans over that 35 year drinking.
To clarify, I thought that drinking sensibly is learnt as we tumble from teenage, young adult, marriages, divorces, single again phases, at some stage I will "learn to drink".
This seed of thought was planted in teenage years at work by those I drank with who some seemed to have normal living styles.
Some would come to the bar, 1 or 2 beers on pay day and go home.
I was either kicked out, not served, left that bar to go to another bar.
By Monday I was broke and had credit arrangements for lunch.
Pay day came round again, pay my credit, and broke again on Monday.
It seemed I could only break the credit cycle when holiday pay came around cos we were paid in a lump sum and was not, well not suppose to be back at work for 4 weeks.
I was back in 2.
No money.
So from 1974 to 2007, give or take a few years, round up/down, 35, I always thought, "I'll get it right one day".
Now the parrallel is this......,
The fade-out of the last black-out drunkeness was on average around 2 weeks.
I thought no one remembered because the memory or the force, or the "gravity" faded. It seemed very distant.
The "gravity" of what happened at weddings, outings, arrests for drunk and disorderly etc etc, with the exception of court appearance dates, seemed to fade.
So my delusion was, "I don't remember, therefore they don't remember because we ALL fade like that and life goes on".
Powerless before the drink for me was, after that 2 week binge, "it's Friday night again, time to party"!
My mind will obssess about what I can do, and not get so drunk. I will try something different.
Where are my friends?!!
1. I don't want to see them cos they are boring drinkers.
2. They don't want to see me cos the last time things got messy.
3. girl freind/s, gone.
Solution:
look for "new beginning". Try to "learn to drink".
These "new beginnings" are usually people, places and things but the lights seems have gotten dimmer.
It becomes "places and things", then goes to "things" and my "thing" became work-gambling-drinking-family court, then the only thing left is the drink,
still wondering, "one day I'll get it right" and win.
The above illustration is not unique, I have heard these similarities in principle many times and identify with the unmanageabilty, 2nd half of Step 1
What does the Big Book say?
Page 24
The fact is that most alcoholics, for reasons yet obscure, have lost the power of choice in drink. Our so-called will power becomes practically nonexistent. We are unable, at certain times, to bring into our consciousness with sufficient force the memory of the suffering and humiliation of even a week or a month ago. We are without defense against the first drink.
The fact is that most alcoholics, for reasons yet obscure, have lost the power of choice in drink. Our so-called will power becomes practically nonexistent. We are unable, at certain times, to bring into our consciousness with sufficient force the memory of the suffering and humiliation of even a week or a month ago. We are without defense against the first drink.
t
We are unable, at certain times, to bring into our consciousness with sufficient force the memory of the suffering and humiliation of
sufficient force
Powerless before the first drink, seems to be "mind".
"Insufficinet force"
I am powerless to "feel" the damage I caused, the feelings of others.
If I was arrested, the charge would be read out, get fined and pay the fine.
My mind would still justify it as, "expenses!"
Damage to property, mirrors and bar windows for being kicked out by bouncers, "a good night out", IF I got away with it, seldom.
Insufficient force to feel what this is doing, or in denial to accept it is directly or indirectly hindering my position in society to make a living.
To me, it was water off a ducks back, and I will drink again because my mind will eventually self delude and start to justify or need a drink to calm the restlesness.
That's been the cycle all along.
Ok, I can guess the next thing is the HP thing.
Illustration:
can't stop to drink once I start to drink, can't stop thinking about a drink and did not realize I was obsessing about that thought of a drink.
What are the rules to live cos mine are not working and by now all family and freinds has moved on while I still got that teenage seed, "learn to drink" seeded by a human 35 years ago (2007).
What now?
What's the next card ?
My mind said, "ring AA and to find out why the change in personality after the first drink".
That call diluted that teenage seed.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: far far from home
Posts: 373
I really like your explanation Susan, thanks. Kind of like what my sponsor said to me when I was 10 months sober but had yet to do the steps. My life had dramatically improved and in my view I had no reason to do any step work, he said "why take the chance to drink again?" Following the book will guarantee you don't.
I guess my point is that at certain times a mental defense will indeed me keep away from the first drink and at other times the HP steps in. So I am not completely powerless all the time. My actions can prevent the car from getting into an accident in the first place so I don't need the seatbelt to save me. Other times the accident will be out of my control, thus I need to be buckled up.
I have no experience with returning to drinking after a period of sobriety, I never really quit, except for a few alcohol fostered hospitalizations and major surgeries, however I never swore it off, I always had a plan to return. But in the past three years I have experienced "thinking the drink through" and not taking the first drink once I did think it through. It was the knowledge set forth in the Doctor's Opinion that did come to my mind, once I start this, it won't stop, guaranteed based on my physical make up.
I am also sure that in the last 3 years my HP and the steps have saved me from a strange mental blank spot when I was defenseless against the first drink.
I guess my point is that at certain times a mental defense will indeed me keep away from the first drink and at other times the HP steps in. So I am not completely powerless all the time. My actions can prevent the car from getting into an accident in the first place so I don't need the seatbelt to save me. Other times the accident will be out of my control, thus I need to be buckled up.
I have no experience with returning to drinking after a period of sobriety, I never really quit, except for a few alcohol fostered hospitalizations and major surgeries, however I never swore it off, I always had a plan to return. But in the past three years I have experienced "thinking the drink through" and not taking the first drink once I did think it through. It was the knowledge set forth in the Doctor's Opinion that did come to my mind, once I start this, it won't stop, guaranteed based on my physical make up.
I am also sure that in the last 3 years my HP and the steps have saved me from a strange mental blank spot when I was defenseless against the first drink.
Member
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 224
Wow! This is an intense conversation.
As hard a time I have with the idea of powerlessness, I love the idea of a higher power.
I don't want to drink because it ***** up my life and the lives of those I care about. I don't think science can disprove that. It just may be harder for me to follow through without a higher power.
As hard a time I have with the idea of powerlessness, I love the idea of a higher power.
I don't want to drink because it ***** up my life and the lives of those I care about. I don't think science can disprove that. It just may be harder for me to follow through without a higher power.
Laozi Old Man
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
Originally Posted by Supercrew
Just a hypothetical question. If you suddenly found out through some scientific discovery tomorrow that there was no such thing as your HP of your own choosing, would you automatically go back to drinking?
Member of SMART Recovery
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,722
Originally Posted by Boleo
In my case, I am sure I would. I never did learn how to quit drinking. My sobriety is a byproduct of being spiritually fit. If there were no spiritual power in the universe, I would have no clue how to not drink. Not drinking has nothing to do with why I am sober today.
OTT
New to Real Life
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: I come in Peaces
Posts: 2,071
Originally Posted by onlythetruth
I absolutely did learn how to quit drinking. My sobriety is a byproduct of knowing how to live a sober life and enjoy it. I believe there is a spiritual power in the universe, but if there weren't, I still wouldn't drink. I know perfectly well how to stay sober, and not drinking is the foundation of it.
OTT
OTT
Fully accepting that the two were mutually exclusive was step 1 though.
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,095
Powerlessness was an experience or a realization for me. As a concept, I could never get my head wrapped around it. It always seemed like I made a choice to drink.
I had periods of sobriety. And it seemed like if I just applied myself hard enough, worked hard enough, did everything I could to stay away from a drink, I would be OK. Powerless as a concept meant nothing to me.
But one day, after failing yet again at those periods of sobriety, I got to experience being powerless. I knew the consequences of my drinking, I knew what would happen, and I absolutely knew I would drink.
I think that's why these threads go sideways and get combative sometimes. Neither right or wrong, some of us have experienced this powerless thing and some of us have not. Powerless, out there somewhere as a concept, never made sense to me. After I had experienced it, it was crystal clear what it meant.
I had periods of sobriety. And it seemed like if I just applied myself hard enough, worked hard enough, did everything I could to stay away from a drink, I would be OK. Powerless as a concept meant nothing to me.
But one day, after failing yet again at those periods of sobriety, I got to experience being powerless. I knew the consequences of my drinking, I knew what would happen, and I absolutely knew I would drink.
I think that's why these threads go sideways and get combative sometimes. Neither right or wrong, some of us have experienced this powerless thing and some of us have not. Powerless, out there somewhere as a concept, never made sense to me. After I had experienced it, it was crystal clear what it meant.
Member
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 224
What is so hard for me, and makes it hard for me to accept that I need to be here, is that I have managed over time to enjoy the sober life for a week, weeks, month, even a couple months. Maybe when I first return to booze it is harmless. Then it becomes nothing but harm. I don't think I'm powerless against alcohol, but I think I've given alcohol a lot of power over me. Power that I haven't taken back . . . yet.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Posts: 645
Keith,
I think you are exactly right. Powerlessness is not a philosophical discussion or debate nor a matter of intellectual assent or agreement. For me, it was a "shaken to the very core of my being" experience and not a pleasant one at that.
What I had believed and had accepted as reality (i.e., I'll be fine as long as I don't drink) simply dissolved before my eyes and in its place was the truth of my situation (i.e., I will drink again and there is absolutely nothing I can do to stop that from happening).
It was a night and day difference. I went from "I'm not taking any of the steps, I'm never going back to AA, and I have no need for a Higher Power" to "I'll do anything, no argument, no debate, no objection, just tell me what to do and I'll do it."
Yes, the meaning of powerlessness became crystal clear. And there was something else that became crystal clear to me too as a result of my experience -- I can never go back to what was because there is nothing left to go back to.
Susan
I think you are exactly right. Powerlessness is not a philosophical discussion or debate nor a matter of intellectual assent or agreement. For me, it was a "shaken to the very core of my being" experience and not a pleasant one at that.
What I had believed and had accepted as reality (i.e., I'll be fine as long as I don't drink) simply dissolved before my eyes and in its place was the truth of my situation (i.e., I will drink again and there is absolutely nothing I can do to stop that from happening).
It was a night and day difference. I went from "I'm not taking any of the steps, I'm never going back to AA, and I have no need for a Higher Power" to "I'll do anything, no argument, no debate, no objection, just tell me what to do and I'll do it."
Yes, the meaning of powerlessness became crystal clear. And there was something else that became crystal clear to me too as a result of my experience -- I can never go back to what was because there is nothing left to go back to.
Susan
Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Eastern Us
Posts: 1,366
I've only been sober since December so I don't really know that much about all this. But I do know that I cannot get drunk if I don't drink. And I think that not drinking is the most important part of my sobriety. Now I am working on why I drank so much, why I was so uncomfortable in my own skin, why I needed to alter the way I felt so often. I am working on why I wanted to run from life so often. And I am coming to believe that I indeed have something lacking in my spiritual life. I need to belive that there really is something more important than me and my desires.
I don't care if I'm powerless or not, It doesn't matter to me. I know that my life is much better if I don't put ethanol in my body. I know that I feel much better when I am working to help other people too. And that is where I am at presently in my recovery.
Good topic by the way.
I don't care if I'm powerless or not, It doesn't matter to me. I know that my life is much better if I don't put ethanol in my body. I know that I feel much better when I am working to help other people too. And that is where I am at presently in my recovery.
Good topic by the way.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bethlehem, PA.
Posts: 1,781
I believe that to a large extent we create our own misery. There are things that happen that are out of our control and these would be the "Things that can not be changed". The world is full of these and the best we can do is to develop the courage to accept those things.
I also think that our decisions, good or bad, all have consequences so in that sense we do create our own reality. Good or bad, right or wrong, sometime our decisions boil down to a judgement call and many times we'll be wrong, but that's life.
My view is that perception defines reality not the other way around and in many cases our perception gets so screwed up that it only allows us to see the negative side of everything. Maybe it could be said that a person is "Powerless" if their perception of reality gets so twisted that they see no other solution. Their problem/solution mode could get so altered that alcohol is the solution to every problem. In my hard drinking days I kind of think that this is where I was.
Is this description sort of what the AA crowd is talking about?
I also think that our decisions, good or bad, all have consequences so in that sense we do create our own reality. Good or bad, right or wrong, sometime our decisions boil down to a judgement call and many times we'll be wrong, but that's life.
My view is that perception defines reality not the other way around and in many cases our perception gets so screwed up that it only allows us to see the negative side of everything. Maybe it could be said that a person is "Powerless" if their perception of reality gets so twisted that they see no other solution. Their problem/solution mode could get so altered that alcohol is the solution to every problem. In my hard drinking days I kind of think that this is where I was.
Is this description sort of what the AA crowd is talking about?
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