RobbyRobot

Of course you're powerless over alcohol the drug. You quit drinking for that very reason. No one has power over alcohol. No one. Period.

The idea that you are powerless over thinking about alcohol, of course you're not, you can easily choose from many working solutions not to think about alcohol, no problemo. So can I do the same.

I'm still though, powerless against, and over, and under, and whater, lol, of alcohol itself. I always was beaten by alcohol, and I always will be beaten by alcohol. Its a done deal.

RobbyRobot

Totally well said, bbthumper.

Yeah. Lack of real power is the essential dilemma we once had. Now, things are different, lol.

Thanks for that definitive share. Way cool.

Cottonwoodchris

Dang, Day Trader, I have missed you since I was gone for so long. Your comments always seem to hit home.

Robby, You are getting under my skin the more I read your comments. That's a good thing.

BackToSquareOne

I always saw a bit of a half truth in the dichotomy of the alcoholic vs hard drinker meme. I don't believe that one is born an alcoholic, it's a condition brought on by continued abuse of an addictive substance. Some may addict more easily than others but you must still abuse the substance in order to get addicted.

During my over 3 decades of drinking and substance abuse I could have fit either description at different points in time. How deeply I was in the throes of addiction had more to do with it than any exogenous factors. There were periods when I would have walked over hot coals or sold my soul to the devil for my substance of choice and other times when I could go many months between benders.

How does one go about explaining this quandry when either definition could apply depending on how deeply I happened to be in the throes of addiction. Can one fluctuate between alcoholic and hard drinker? Isn't that breaking all the rules?

bbthumper

I think that one can be an alcoholic without being addicted to alcohol. Some of us never get to the point of physical addiction, but still experience the loss of control. Others drink heavily for long enough to become physically addicted, but once separated from alcohol for a sufficient time find that their problem is solved. What makes me an alcoholic is that when I drink I lose choice and control. Physical addiction is not always present in an alcoholic. An alcohol-addicted person may not necessarily be an alcoholic. I think alcoholism has very specific symptoms.

BackToSquareOne

It's an interesting topic, if I went back to drinking a half gallon of vodka a day I'd be physically addicted in a few days. My power of choice would mentally seem to go away because the desire to drink would be much stronger than the desire to stop. I wouldn't really lose my power of free will or choice but it would sure seem that way.

freshstart57

Can you find a source for this statement? Is there a definition of the word anywhere that agrees with this? Word definitions are not usually a matter of fusebox.

bbthumper

This is based on the Big Book's description of alcoholism and my experience.

jml318

Hello everyone, some thoughts of late:

getting to that special place - the point of sweet celebration of all you've been denied seems somehow justifiable in the imbibement of substance. no matter how many are hurt or inconvenienced in the process. the ruse - it's never enough. you cannot quench the intense longing, no matter the proclivity. all the distilleries, poppies, coca harvests, and pharmaceutical variants cannot escape this fact. i function today because i have to, though i know i am far from having any semblance of control.

alcohol is definitely optiate like. based on my experience, i now appreciate the assessment that there is something to THIQ. this drug turns me into a person would never be without its influence

Mark75

If you think in terms of physiologic addiction vs. psychologic addiction I think there is a lot of room for all of that...

Sapling

The phenomenon of craving being one I never knew I had...Till I read what it was....What an eye opener that was.

Boleo

I drank for 30+ years. An outside observer would have said I drank like an alcoholic for most of that time. I drank too much, I drank too often, I got into too much trouble from a normal persons perspective.

However, I really only became alcoholic for the last 5 of those years. Why?
Because I drank as much as I intended to, I drank as often as I intended to and I got into as much trouble as I intended to for the first 25 years or so. The benefits of drinking outweighed the consequences by such a wide margin that I thought it was well worth it to suffer a few consequences.
Even though I drank a lot. Even though I blacked out a lot and even though I got into trouble a lot - I intended to do so and actually liked the drama and chaos in my life. I bragged about it to my drinking buddies and we all laughed about it. It was sick but it was fun at the same time.

Then something changed. I drank more than I intended to. I drank more often than I intended to. I got into more trouble than I intended to. The consequences started to outweigh the benefits. It was no longer a laughing matter. I tried to control how often I drank. I tried to control how much I drank. I tried to limit how much trouble I got into. That is when I became powerless. To an outside observer nothing really changed. I still drank way too much in their opinion for 3 decades.

The point is - the powerless thing did not show up until I tried to control my drinking and failed. If I had stopped in time, I would have looked like a drunk for a couple of decades but I would not have been "beyond human aid" as the Big Book calls it and not have been the type of powerless alcoholic that it addresses.

Powerless is an inside job.

bbthumper

Amen

davaidavai

It's downright annoying when people critisize the concept of powerlessness per AA. Infantile. I quit so I don't feel powerless! Not because they are wrong or AA is right but just because it seems to fly in the face of common knowledge. Haven't you ever seen Kung Fu? Seek not the answer, but to understand the question? This is a common, common philosophical concept found in most religions, in poetry the world over, at every level of human achievement. Where there is success, there is some form of giving up, losing one's self in a greater flow of things. Giving up the search, giving up the drive to control thereby entering into a richer experience wherein stuff like boozing becomes trite.

Now this objection rooted in an extremely narrow interpretation of 'power' is not annoying because it's necessarily wrong or right: it's annoying because it greets a vein of centuries old popular thinking as if it's a new idea invented by AA. Very literal minded. Very uncultured.

freshstart57

Ad hominem?

Mark75

Thank you, I have been searching for those words every time we discuss powerlessness on SR.

Perhaps that last bit about uncultured. However, there are times when I get sooooo frustrated by the posturing that goes on in these discussions... "I am not POWERLESS, I am strong!!" and there is that implication, sometimes, real or imagined, intended or not... "I am stronger than YOU! Powerless?? not me!".

I am, personally, way past feeling, somehow, I guess, dissed... if you will. But this is a very important, no, the MOST important, concept in recovery. AA with seeking a power greater than ourselves... and AVRT, not engaging the beast... and frankly, if one isn't powerless, on some level, what is the point of participating in an online forum about alcoholism and addiction?

ru12

I think there is enough frustration to go around. I particularly enjoy being told what I am, that of course I'm powerless . . . that EVERYONE is powerless over alcohol ("Of course you're powerless over alcohol the drug. You quit drinking for that very reason. No one has power over alcohol. No one. Period." thanks Robby for setting me straight about that one). These posts drip with serenity! I'm not powerless over ethanol. Perhaps this is an infantile and ... what was the word ... uncultured (that's it) understanding, but it is mine and it severs me quite well at the moment.

Mark, if I state that I'm not powerless over ethyl alcohol how does that affect you? If I say that I am not powerless, that doesn't mean that I am strong, it just means that I might have some power to affect my behavior when it comes to ethanol. I don't drink it. I can be in a room full of it. I can serve it to other people. I can buy it at the store. It just doesn't affect me any more because I don't drink it.

I participate in these discussions because I think that I might be able to help someone quit drinking. How does that have anything whatsoever to do with being powerless? Why do you post here?

I just don't know why some people get their panites in a twist if someone else doesn't buy this powerless construction. It isn't helpful to SOME people. And that is simply the turth.

Finally, when I initially ventured an opinion on this subject, I misread the title. . . I missed the part where it said it only wanted AA's opinion on powerlessness. I answered as someone not in AA and that was a mistake.

Mark75

I reach past my son's case of Heineken, one of my brands, that he keeps in the garage refrigerator to get a diet coke, daily... I sat at the bar with my ski buddies Friday before we went to the latest Warren Miller Film screening, drinking a seltzer and lime, my wife has her white wine spritzer every night before bed... I hardly notice, and if I do, it has no POWER over me whatsoever...

So I am not powerless... Or am I?

That is why it was so refreshing to hear the Kung Fu quote about not seeking the answer but understanding the question.... So what's yours?

ru12

I don't know what YOU are Mark. I stated what I am. There is a difference. But I like your question.

Mark75

Is there a difference between us? Or are these just different answers to different understandings of the same question?