ru12

Now that is a good question.

Mark75

Boleo

Wu Wei is an important concept of Taoism (Daoism), that involves knowing when to act and when not to act. Another perspective to this is that "Wu Wei" means natural action - as planets revolve around the sun, they "do" this revolving, but without "doing" it; or as trees grow, they "do", but without "doing". Thus knowing when (and how) to act is not knowledge in the sense that one would think "now" is the right time to do "this", but rather just doing it, doing the natural thing.

Wu may be translated as not have or without; Wei may be translated as . The literal meaning of Wu Wei is "without action", "without effort", or "without control", and is often included in the paradox wei wu wei: "action without action" or "effortless doing". The practice of wu wei and the efficacy of wei wu wei are fundamental tenets in Chinese thought and have been mostly emphasized by the Taoist school. The aim of wu wei is to achieve a state of perfect equilibrium, or alignment with the Tao, and, as a result, obtain an irresistible form of "soft and invisible" power.

RobbyRobot

Well, you're welcome? <GRIN>

Seriously, I'm talking clearly when alcohol is drank, ingested. You personally have no "power" over the resultant chemical effects. None. So in fact, this translates simply enough to "being powerless over alcohol."

Serenity? Not sure what serenity has to do with our discussion between you and I...

Anywho, I like your sense of humor, no problemo.

freshstart57

Is the sum of this that drinking makes us drunk? That's it? If this were really about not being able to behave after ingesting some amount of alcohol, this whole discussion would never have gotten started.

The statement is made that we can't control our behavior around alcohol before we drink it. Some can, some can't. I quit drinking because I could, not because I couldn't.

bbthumper

Agreed. The program of AA as laid out in the Big Book applies to a certain type of alcoholic. Those whose main problem is lack of power. It is indeed not necessary for every one.

RobbyRobot

This describes both the obsessional trait of alcoholism, and physical cravings, being (supposedly) causing one to be unable to control certain behaviors before drinking alcohol.

tammy711

(I want the last 17 minutes of my life back! ;- )

Kidding. This was an intense, yet interesting thread. There were some really good nuggets of knowledge peppered here and there.

From a new teetotaler: Thanks to those that passionately posted based on their experiences.



----

Mark75

You could because.... AVRT? ... Not fighting the beast anymore?

freshstart57

I don't wish to derail but, seeing that it is you, Mark, that is doing the asking...I accept that there is an urge to drink sometimes. I no longer accept that I am compelled to act on it.
Ethanol is a kind of inanimate matter, it just sits there, mindin' its own bidness, having no power of its own. It is just stuff. I used to believe I was powerless over my behavior around alcohol, but I asked myself, what could happen if I somehow came to believe that I was not powerless in taking that drink? That was when I quit. It just sorta happened, I dunno, I was hungover.

BackToSquareOne

One thing we should all remember is that there are a lot of different levels of obsession. I did a 28 day 12 step based rehab back in 1991. I remember getting home and the desire to drink was so great that I drove down to the state store and completely restocked my home bar. I paced the floor for about an hour and said screw it, the desire to stop just wasn't there at the time. I never viewed it as a lack of power tho, more like a lack of desire to throw in the towel.

Fandy

So all that rehab and 12step program did not help you?
Sometimes after reading all the surrendering, powerless, thumping, and daily meeting suggestions I would feel sorry for the new posters,! Its like a thundering herd descending on them.

BackToSquareOne

I put nothing into it really, it was done more to please family than anything else.

Boleo

OK, not everyone is powerless over (or around) alcohol. My "experience" is that alcohol has a spirit nature (it is often called spirits) as well as being an inanimate matter. For me alcohol was a form of higher power, when it called, I obeyed. I could delay it for a few hours or maybe a day or two. But that was the best my so-called will power could do to fight it. I knew that I could not go the rest of my life fighting it. Sobriety was a cross to bare and sooner or later, I knew I had to put that cross down. Struggling One-Arduous-Day-At-A-Time was a living hell for me.

Now here is where the "ad hominem" argument is apropos: those who have not experienced this feeling have only an opinion about an experience that they have never had. This kind of experience has another name - "inexperience".

For an alcoholic of my type, the only solution is what Carl Jung called:

"Spiritus contra spiritum".

ru12

I agree.

DayTrader

If there was a thread.....and the subject asked for help with understanding a poem written in sandskrit, I can only imagine how many follow-up posts there would be by folks totally compelled to explain how sandskrit is a dead language, how they get along fine not knowing sandskrit, how their "English" isn't as demeaning as sandskrit, and then he follow up posts about how someone studied it for a handful of days but decided it wasn't for them...... Then, the folks who DO know that form of writing and have experience with it can get chastised for being a thundering herd - scaring ppl off.

I'd challenge everyone to try.....maybe for just a week..... Sharing experience rather than opinions. For me, it means I don't have the right to comment with my inane poin of view in a whole lotta threads. ....and I'm sure y'all appreciate that as I post on here more than enough already.

tomsteve

well said, daytrader.

isinganyway

The program works in many ways. There's no one definition of a "real alcoholic." And the Big Book was written in the 30s... we've learned a lot about brain chemistry and addiction since then.

Don't assume there's "one type" or "one real" kind of alcoholic.

Sapling

We've also learned how many lives the program has saved since it was written...Including my own. I like this definition...It's me.

But what about the real alcoholic? He may start off as a moderate drinker; he may or may not become a continuous hard drinker; but at some stage of his drinking career he begins to lose all control of his liquor consumption, once he starts to drink.

BB pg 21

By the way...Great post Daytrader!

onlythetruth

I see that in my absence for a couple of days, y'all have been at it again!

These discussions can be frustrating but they are extremely valuable to all parties. I remember trying to raise these questions and have these discussions during my time in AA and being totally shut down. The very fact that this issue is being debated in the open is definitely progress.