Assuming We Are Spiritually Fit?
Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,697
Originally Posted by Pagekeeper 
My mind can be very sneaky. It can tell me certain actions are "okay" and not really contrary to my morals. I have a naturally analytical mind--that's not a bad thing; I believe it's a positive thing when applied to the greater good. But sometimes it can get me into trouble.
Psalm 118:24
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: ILLINOIS
Posts: 15,203
For many years since, I've gotten sober, I've went to ball games, concerts, comedy clubs, nice restaurants and alcohol is served. I wasn't bothered by this in the least. Been to several wedding receptions in VFW and American Legions.
The one thing I choose not to do is go to a bar. The primary reason for being in a bar for the most part is to drink. In the Lord's prayer, we pray lead us not into temptation. I'm not going to be praying for this and putting myself in harm's way.
I have some friend's I still on occasion do things socially with. They are social drinkers. They can order a drink and leave half of it sitting. By choice, I stay away from people that, drink like I did. I found out, after I stopped drinking, we didn't have much in common. I have this thing about having alcohol in my house. My kids make the mistake of bringing some over and leaving it there for me to find, I use it for a drain cleaner for my kitchen sink.
I didn't stop drinking to not enjoy life. Spiritually, mentally, physically I'm doing ok today. I just had a Christmas party Sat. night for our area groups. What would've been a very enjoyable evening was saddened by a long time member getting a DUI earlier in the day. That's a little reminder to me, the fun's no longer there for me or anyone in AA.
The one thing I choose not to do is go to a bar. The primary reason for being in a bar for the most part is to drink. In the Lord's prayer, we pray lead us not into temptation. I'm not going to be praying for this and putting myself in harm's way.
I have some friend's I still on occasion do things socially with. They are social drinkers. They can order a drink and leave half of it sitting. By choice, I stay away from people that, drink like I did. I found out, after I stopped drinking, we didn't have much in common. I have this thing about having alcohol in my house. My kids make the mistake of bringing some over and leaving it there for me to find, I use it for a drain cleaner for my kitchen sink.
I didn't stop drinking to not enjoy life. Spiritually, mentally, physically I'm doing ok today. I just had a Christmas party Sat. night for our area groups. What would've been a very enjoyable evening was saddened by a long time member getting a DUI earlier in the day. That's a little reminder to me, the fun's no longer there for me or anyone in AA.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 112
True enough.
But I would say a person who is that far off the beam is probably not in fit spiritual condition. Not according to my reading of the BB anyway. I think the big items need to be addressed. Otherwise we're just fooling ourselves.
People who displayed those major defects of character tended to get drunk in the BB. In fact, they still do. Sometimes a person can stay sober a long time while acting out but the question remains, are they really spiritually fit ?
I think for our purposes, we can assume not.
I know I have the lesser variety of all those defects myself and I'm not 'on the beam' on any given day, but the major defects are mostly gone. And I can say, with all honesty that when I act out on a major defect, I'm not spiritually fit. Not while I'm doing it and probably not for a good while afterwards. I just had a few bouts with my temper recently and I know all too well what I'm talking about..... It felt good as heck at the time but it was spiritual poison. All the good spiritual qualities I have were worth nothing. I was just in the pit. That's why I think it's an all or nothing situation. When you're off the beam, you're off. You drink over the on defect that broke you. Your assets aren't gonna save you because they're 'on the beam' and you're not.
And that's where the tools come in of course.
Fit spiritual condition is one of those great topics like humility and honesty that leads people to talk way outside their experience, to yammer platitudes they learned from the BB while their spouse wants to kill them, as they cut people off in traffic, as they steal from work and have affairs. Those meetings always amuse me.
.
But I would say a person who is that far off the beam is probably not in fit spiritual condition. Not according to my reading of the BB anyway. I think the big items need to be addressed. Otherwise we're just fooling ourselves.
People who displayed those major defects of character tended to get drunk in the BB. In fact, they still do. Sometimes a person can stay sober a long time while acting out but the question remains, are they really spiritually fit ?
I think for our purposes, we can assume not.
I know I have the lesser variety of all those defects myself and I'm not 'on the beam' on any given day, but the major defects are mostly gone. And I can say, with all honesty that when I act out on a major defect, I'm not spiritually fit. Not while I'm doing it and probably not for a good while afterwards. I just had a few bouts with my temper recently and I know all too well what I'm talking about..... It felt good as heck at the time but it was spiritual poison. All the good spiritual qualities I have were worth nothing. I was just in the pit. That's why I think it's an all or nothing situation. When you're off the beam, you're off. You drink over the on defect that broke you. Your assets aren't gonna save you because they're 'on the beam' and you're not.
And that's where the tools come in of course.
Originally Posted by Ago
Fit spiritual condition is one of those great topics like humility and honesty that leads people to talk way outside their experience, to yammer platitudes they learned from the BB while their spouse wants to kill them, as they cut people off in traffic, as they steal from work and have affairs. Those meetings always amuse me.
.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Pugetopolis
Posts: 2,384
How I gauge my spiritual fitness is very simple.
How are my relations with others? With co-workers? With other AA's? With friends? With strangers in line at the store? Am I impatient, intolerant, & critical?
My relationship with God is reflected in my relationship with you. If I tell you love God and I love you, but I have a resentment, I am a liar.
Jim
How are my relations with others? With co-workers? With other AA's? With friends? With strangers in line at the store? Am I impatient, intolerant, & critical?
My relationship with God is reflected in my relationship with you. If I tell you love God and I love you, but I have a resentment, I am a liar.
Jim
Member
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 1,636
For me at this point I guess I ""judge" my level of spiritual fitness at any given moment by how aware I am of or by how quickly I can access that fundamental, deep-core feeling that all is well and that I am fundamentally safe and cared for....
...and I do mean "fundamentally," because on the outside or in terms of what-the-h*ll ever -- good or bad in my estimation -- is going on around me or in my life, things can be stressful, messy, jubliant, turbulant, painful, exciting or whatever, but, if I'm spiritually fit, then none of that can really disturb or displace the core "wellness" and/or "wholeness." (That actually feels a bit weird to me sometimes, too, because, sometimes it feels like I'm almost schiziod -- like there's a crazy, frrenetic person on the outside who gets all caught up in stuff and wants, alternately, to play god and throw hissy-fits, and then there's the spiritually fit person who just is totally cool and connected and certain and just does the next right thing regardless of how much the crazy person is b*tching and moaning about it.)
...and my suspicion is that, even when I'm not connected spiritually/spiritually fit, that core wellness or whole is still there somewhere. It's just that I'm not doing the things I need to do to be able to access it easily and benefit from it.
The really awesome thing lately has been that, even in the midst of a lot of challenging stuff that's been going on for me, I seem to be able to maintain contact with that pretty well, and, if I realize I'm slipping out of contact and getting into negative, revved-up, obsessive, controlling, hyper-analyzing behavior and/or thinking, as soon as I realize that and make the effort to pause and be quiet, I have been able to access it again very quickly and easily.
...and that's a really good and empowering thing.
freya
...and I do mean "fundamentally," because on the outside or in terms of what-the-h*ll ever -- good or bad in my estimation -- is going on around me or in my life, things can be stressful, messy, jubliant, turbulant, painful, exciting or whatever, but, if I'm spiritually fit, then none of that can really disturb or displace the core "wellness" and/or "wholeness." (That actually feels a bit weird to me sometimes, too, because, sometimes it feels like I'm almost schiziod -- like there's a crazy, frrenetic person on the outside who gets all caught up in stuff and wants, alternately, to play god and throw hissy-fits, and then there's the spiritually fit person who just is totally cool and connected and certain and just does the next right thing regardless of how much the crazy person is b*tching and moaning about it.)
...and my suspicion is that, even when I'm not connected spiritually/spiritually fit, that core wellness or whole is still there somewhere. It's just that I'm not doing the things I need to do to be able to access it easily and benefit from it.
The really awesome thing lately has been that, even in the midst of a lot of challenging stuff that's been going on for me, I seem to be able to maintain contact with that pretty well, and, if I realize I'm slipping out of contact and getting into negative, revved-up, obsessive, controlling, hyper-analyzing behavior and/or thinking, as soon as I realize that and make the effort to pause and be quiet, I have been able to access it again very quickly and easily.
...and that's a really good and empowering thing.
freya
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 812
Again, thanks for the discussion.
I don't have the desire to drink today, the mental obsession, that is. But I still have unmanageability in my life at times--that list of bedevilments on page 53. Not to nearly the same degree as when I first started this journey, but from time to time--yes.
I don't have the desire to drink today, the mental obsession, that is. But I still have unmanageability in my life at times--that list of bedevilments on page 53. Not to nearly the same degree as when I first started this journey, but from time to time--yes.
Psalm 118:24
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: ILLINOIS
Posts: 15,203
Originally Posted by jimhere
How I gauge my spiritual fitness is very simple.
How are my relations with others? With co-workers? With other AA's? With friends? With strangers in line at the store? Am I impatient, intolerant, & critical?
How are my relations with others? With co-workers? With other AA's? With friends? With strangers in line at the store? Am I impatient, intolerant, & critical?
Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Pugetopolis
Posts: 2,384
Originally Posted by Pagekeeper
Again, thanks for the discussion.
I don't have the desire to drink today, the mental obsession, that is. But I still have unmanageability in my life at times--that list of bedevilments on page 53. Not to nearly the same degree as when I first started this journey, but from time to time--yes.
I don't have the desire to drink today, the mental obsession, that is. But I still have unmanageability in my life at times--that list of bedevilments on page 53. Not to nearly the same degree as when I first started this journey, but from time to time--yes.
That's the human condition, something we humans will never be able to manage. But we alcoholics don't have to try to manage them with booze anymore either.
Those human problems never totally go away, they kind of ebb and flow-money comes and goes, jobs, emotional nature, happiness, usefulness, working with others, relationships, people come and go, etc. But I've learned to be OK with them, in the middle of them the way they are and not have to fix them, try to change them, or run from them.
I think it was Thomas Merton who said "I've have found content within the discontent and comfort within the discomfort."
Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 413
I will never be spiritually perfect ... there is a difference between "fit" and "perfect".
So I ask myself, "Have I ceased fighting everything and everyone?"
If I find myself struggling against something, I have a spiritual issue requiring resolution. I'm not quite fit at that time. It is not a wise idea for me to be around alcohol.
When I completely cease fighting, and I can face the day with a calm sense of serenity, I am spiritually fit. Not perfect, just fit ... for now.
So I ask myself, "Have I ceased fighting everything and everyone?"
If I find myself struggling against something, I have a spiritual issue requiring resolution. I'm not quite fit at that time. It is not a wise idea for me to be around alcohol.
When I completely cease fighting, and I can face the day with a calm sense of serenity, I am spiritually fit. Not perfect, just fit ... for now.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Pugetopolis
Posts: 2,384
Someone named Therese of Liseaux, a French girl canonized by The Catholic Church as a saint in the early twentieth century, said this:
"Perfection is being who God made you to be."
That means that on some days I am perfect.
"Perfection is being who God made you to be."
That means that on some days I am perfect.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The Swish Alps, SF CA
Posts: 2,144
Originally Posted by jimhere
Someone named Therese of Liseaux, a French girl canonized by The Catholic Church as a saint in the early twentieth century, said this:
"Perfection is being who God made you to be."
That means that on some days I am perfect.
"Perfection is being who God made you to be."
That means that on some days I am perfect.
Not only that, but sometimes I am perfect even when I am uncomfortable, when I can't hear the music of the spheres, when monkeys aren't flying out of my butt.
There has been a huge shift for me over the years from "I am not like this" or "I will never do this again" to "this is what I am like in this situation" and "I may not be done doing this"
Seeing things for how they are, rather then how I want them to be including my own behavior takes away the value, and without the "value" (good and bad) I can make better decisions.
It's like instead of "being" resentful, or impatient, angry etc, I "have" anger, or frustration, etc, I still get these emotions, I just don't identify with them as much, and it's more important to quiet them then it is to be right, it's like I "have" hunger, rather then I "am" hungry, if I can detach, I can address.
We come to a point in the book where it says we have to make a decision, either God "is" (everything) or isn't, there is no "partial", but then I read and hear around the rooms, "if you are further away from God then you want to be, make no mistake, it's you that moved"
To me that is a mathematical impossibility, you can't (to me) accept the premise that God is everything, and then move away from God, to me these are learning times, if pain is the touchstone of spiritual growth, and all of these times I get "off the beam" are painful and I learn a lesson, how can that be "away" from God?
So once I accepted that as a premise, and started to learn how to "detach", shame and guilt went away as coping tools, because in some ways I believe alcoholism is a shame and guilt based malady (or it becomes so) that has a lot in common with a mushroom, ie, if you keep it in the dark and feed it s**t it flourishes, and one of the ways my alcoholism tries to communicate with me is with shame and guilt.
Anyway, it all boils down to I am exactly where I am supposed to be, and if I am uncomfortable, or going through a painful learning experience, or a long dark tea time of the soul, it doesn't mean I am not spiritually fit, it means I am a spiritual being that is growing.
Once again, the bottom line is how I treat others, in traffic, how do I treat my loved ones, etc, and that means WITHOUT hidden agendas, without "love with strings" or putting things in my "favor bank", much of what we view as "good behavior" is self serving, and quite frankly isn't virtue, it's selfishness disguised as selflessness, and for me the litmus is "Is this virtuous? Do i expect anything in return? Do I have a hidden agenda? Is this love with strings? Does this decision bring me peace?"
Virtue is it's own reward, because when I expect a reward for virtue, it's not virtue any more.
Anyway, short version
yeah Jim, me too, it's just some days I am more perfect then others
Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Boston
Posts: 10
This is a great thread!
For Me: I am Spiritually fit when I am moving to God and not running away from God. When I am moving to God I am teachable, I am able to take direction, I am willing, I am able to see (usually with the help of my sponsor) where I am at and where I need to go. I am consious of me and my effect on those around me. When things don't "go my way", I am able to accept that it is not God's will and that He has a plan for me that is PERFECT because it is His design. I wish to be the me God wants me to be.
When I am running from God, I am NOT teachable or willing. I become "Little Miss Can't Be Wrong". I can not see the reality of me and will take helpful suggestions as attacks and ways to control and change me. When things don't "go my way", I have tantrums. Sometimes that can be seen by others and sometimes in my head. I don't care about how I affect those around me. I just want to fill up me with me. I want to be the me that I want to be.
I know without a doubt when I am running to God or away from God. When I an running to God it doesn't mean that I am perfect. It just means that I am communicating and building the most important relationship in my life.... my relationship with God.
For Me: I am Spiritually fit when I am moving to God and not running away from God. When I am moving to God I am teachable, I am able to take direction, I am willing, I am able to see (usually with the help of my sponsor) where I am at and where I need to go. I am consious of me and my effect on those around me. When things don't "go my way", I am able to accept that it is not God's will and that He has a plan for me that is PERFECT because it is His design. I wish to be the me God wants me to be.
When I am running from God, I am NOT teachable or willing. I become "Little Miss Can't Be Wrong". I can not see the reality of me and will take helpful suggestions as attacks and ways to control and change me. When things don't "go my way", I have tantrums. Sometimes that can be seen by others and sometimes in my head. I don't care about how I affect those around me. I just want to fill up me with me. I want to be the me that I want to be.
I know without a doubt when I am running to God or away from God. When I an running to God it doesn't mean that I am perfect. It just means that I am communicating and building the most important relationship in my life.... my relationship with God.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The Swish Alps, SF CA
Posts: 2,144
On further reflection:
I guess it all boils down to my understanding of the word "sin" and "character defects"
I go back to the origin of the word Sin, it was an archery term, it meant "to miss the bullseye", so, if I "sin" it's not that I have "done something wrong" and I need to beat myself up about it, it's I "missed the bullseye" and I get another chance to try again, whether today or tomorrow, and I have the tools to clean up any messes I made.
As far as "character defects" go, I think they boil down to things that harm me or others, I have the tools to deal with them as well. Some are more subtle then others, especially all the forms of pride (for me) because with Pride I can justify any sort of errant nonsense
"We are not saints, the point is we are willing to grow along spiritual lines" as long as I am willing to grow along spiritual lines, and take the actions to do so, I am spiritually fit
BB 1st edition
I guess it all boils down to my understanding of the word "sin" and "character defects"
I go back to the origin of the word Sin, it was an archery term, it meant "to miss the bullseye", so, if I "sin" it's not that I have "done something wrong" and I need to beat myself up about it, it's I "missed the bullseye" and I get another chance to try again, whether today or tomorrow, and I have the tools to clean up any messes I made.
As far as "character defects" go, I think they boil down to things that harm me or others, I have the tools to deal with them as well. Some are more subtle then others, especially all the forms of pride (for me) because with Pride I can justify any sort of errant nonsense
"We are not saints, the point is we are willing to grow along spiritual lines" as long as I am willing to grow along spiritual lines, and take the actions to do so, I am spiritually fit
BB 1st edition
Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 112
Saint Augustine prayed : "Give me chastity and continence, but not yet."
I don't see that prayer as a sign of spiritual fitness. He was still hanging on to his own will although he was 'in theory' willing to give up his vices in order to do God's will.
For me, I need to make sure I'm not doing any of the big sins first. The 7 deady sins are called deadly for a reason. They kill us spiritually. (dead people aren't considered 'fit')
If I'm acting out on lust, anger, greed, gluttony, sloth, anger, jealousy or pride in an area of my life I need to address it before I go any further. I've rationalized so many things in my sobriety I really need to stick with the basics !!
It's easy to sit back and pontificate but to actually live a good moral life is hard. But I think that's what the BB says I need to do.
What usually happens is I come to the conclusion that I'm not actually 'fit' spiritually and ask God for strength and mercy anyway. so....go figure......
I don't see that prayer as a sign of spiritual fitness. He was still hanging on to his own will although he was 'in theory' willing to give up his vices in order to do God's will.
For me, I need to make sure I'm not doing any of the big sins first. The 7 deady sins are called deadly for a reason. They kill us spiritually. (dead people aren't considered 'fit')
If I'm acting out on lust, anger, greed, gluttony, sloth, anger, jealousy or pride in an area of my life I need to address it before I go any further. I've rationalized so many things in my sobriety I really need to stick with the basics !!
It's easy to sit back and pontificate but to actually live a good moral life is hard. But I think that's what the BB says I need to do.
What usually happens is I come to the conclusion that I'm not actually 'fit' spiritually and ask God for strength and mercy anyway. so....go figure......
Originally Posted by Ago
On further reflection:
"We are not saints, the point is we are willing to grow along spiritual lines" as long as I am willing to grow along spiritual lines, and take the actions to do so, I am spiritually fit
BB 1st edition
"We are not saints, the point is we are willing to grow along spiritual lines" as long as I am willing to grow along spiritual lines, and take the actions to do so, I am spiritually fit
BB 1st edition
Laozi Old Man
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
Originally Posted by jimhere
"Perfection is being who God made you to be."
With only a cell-phone to keep me connected to mentors and fellowship I had to monitor my spiritual fitness closely. I eventually figured out that "sense of purpose" was the best barometer for judging if I was spiritually fit.
As long as I felt that my life had purpose (even if I did not know exactly what it was) I did not need anything else to feel OK. I did not need pills & booze, I did not need material possessions, I did not need entertainment, I did not need praise or approval, I did not even need companionship. If someone asked me if I was OK, I could say I really was OK.
God's Kid
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 1,820
Originally Posted by jimhere
How I gauge my spiritual fitness is very simple.
How are my relations with others? With co-workers? With other AA's? With friends? With strangers in line at the store? Am I impatient, intolerant, & critical?
My relationship with God is reflected in my relationship with you. If I tell you love God and I love you, but I have a resentment, I am a liar.
Jim
How are my relations with others? With co-workers? With other AA's? With friends? With strangers in line at the store? Am I impatient, intolerant, & critical?
My relationship with God is reflected in my relationship with you. If I tell you love God and I love you, but I have a resentment, I am a liar.
Jim
I've seen a lot of AA members come in to AA, stop drinking and then say thank god that's over! I've dealt with all my problems now by working the 12 steps so I can sail through life! (I was certainly 1 of them.) But after I'd been round a few years I started to learn how faulty my thinking/ideas about how to live really were and as they saying goes 'you either grow or you go.' My expereince has been people don't start drinking after years of soberity because they stopped coming to meetings, they start because they refuse to deal with an area of their life that scares them too much or is just too painful. In my expereince, for woman it is usually to do with abusive relationships and codependecy or/and eating disorders. And when you're full of s##t there's no room for god right?
I also use to beleive that 'Spiritual Fitness' and "Feeling Good' were one in the same thing but I don't anymore. Like Jim said my gauge centres around how willing I am to give to others. I.e. a kind word to a frazzled check out operator.
Member
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 1,636
Just so ya'll know, after reading this thread last week, I brought up Spiritual Fitness and how paying attention to that might be helpful in dealing with the trials and tribulations associated with the holidays for so many people as the topic at my HG last Tuesday. (Sometimes I get so tired of hearing all the b*tching and moaning about the holidays at meetings from Thanksgiving through New Years and hoped that maybe we could do something more constructive.) Anyways, it was a good meeting, and today I got feedback from 5 people that they were able to implement some of what they heard at the meeting and that it made a big difference in their Christmas experiences this year...
...so, just thought I should pass along the "thanks for that topic!"
freya
...so, just thought I should pass along the "thanks for that topic!"
freya
Laozi Old Man
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
Originally Posted by jimhere
I think it was Thomas Merton who said "I've have found content within the discontent and comfort within the discomfort."
"In this life pain is inevitable but suffering is optional." (unknown author)
"My friend promised when these things were done I would enter upon a new relationship with my Creator; that I would have the elements of a way of living which answered all my problems." (BB page 13)
""Quite as important was the discovery that spiritual principles would solve all my problems." (BB page 42)
Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
