The Dilemma Of The Old-timer
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Pugetopolis
Posts: 2,384
The Dilemma Of The Old-timer
Not quite sure as to how to begin here.
Maybe I'll start by saying that sometimes I think that we are far too concerned about the newcomer. And we are ignoring another resource-our old-timers.
I have noticed a growing and disturbing trend. Not sure if it is locally or fellowship wide. You don't see a lot of people with double digit sobriety in the meetings.Especially those with say, twenty-five or more years. Where are they at?
I was talking to a fellow a few days ago. This man has been sober close to thirty years. He was telling me about how about a week or so ago he had "one of those days." I know what he's talking about. The kind of day where it doesn't matter how long sober you are or how good you work the program, everything just goes to hell. And you need some real fellowship, you need to be with your people. Anyway he was telling me that he felt that way last week and on that particular day, he looked in the meeting schedule. Now on any given day in this town you can go to a meeting just about any time. He was telling me that he felt like he needed some real fellowship and not just the social fluff that passes for an AA meeting in this town. And he didn't see any place he could go, so he just stayed home. I told him that I would be glad to talk with him anytime or go to a meeting with him. In fact, I invited him to my home group. More and more I am starting to see that this group isn't necessarily for the newcomer. but geared towards the person with time who is withering on the vine in AA.
In a lot of the meetings here, the old-timer with a message is ignored in favor of the thirty/sixty/ninety day majority. Like my friend recently told me, why go to a place where no one wants what you have and no one wants to hear anything you have to say. I know how he feels, but in all fairness I told him that he can't afford to drift into bitterness and cynicism and that maybe some inventory might be in order.
More and more I am hearing of this dilemma. People with time are dying in quiet desperation in AA. People tell them how good they are doing because they are sober X amount of years and their egos won't let them say anything. Sadly, some of the drink again, others just fade into bitter obscurity, some make the supreme sacrifice and commit suicide.
So, I am thinking that maybe I will start Twelfth-Stepping these kinds of people. I am not saying ignore the newcomers, but they belong to God. Everybody climbs all over themselves to help the newcomer, yet the old-timer is either given a hug and told how great he is because he is sober X amount of years or he is ignored.
p.s.-I'll let you guys in on a little secret. I can identify with the man I was talking about because I have been in his shoes recently.
Jim
Maybe I'll start by saying that sometimes I think that we are far too concerned about the newcomer. And we are ignoring another resource-our old-timers.
I have noticed a growing and disturbing trend. Not sure if it is locally or fellowship wide. You don't see a lot of people with double digit sobriety in the meetings.Especially those with say, twenty-five or more years. Where are they at?
I was talking to a fellow a few days ago. This man has been sober close to thirty years. He was telling me about how about a week or so ago he had "one of those days." I know what he's talking about. The kind of day where it doesn't matter how long sober you are or how good you work the program, everything just goes to hell. And you need some real fellowship, you need to be with your people. Anyway he was telling me that he felt that way last week and on that particular day, he looked in the meeting schedule. Now on any given day in this town you can go to a meeting just about any time. He was telling me that he felt like he needed some real fellowship and not just the social fluff that passes for an AA meeting in this town. And he didn't see any place he could go, so he just stayed home. I told him that I would be glad to talk with him anytime or go to a meeting with him. In fact, I invited him to my home group. More and more I am starting to see that this group isn't necessarily for the newcomer. but geared towards the person with time who is withering on the vine in AA.
In a lot of the meetings here, the old-timer with a message is ignored in favor of the thirty/sixty/ninety day majority. Like my friend recently told me, why go to a place where no one wants what you have and no one wants to hear anything you have to say. I know how he feels, but in all fairness I told him that he can't afford to drift into bitterness and cynicism and that maybe some inventory might be in order.
More and more I am hearing of this dilemma. People with time are dying in quiet desperation in AA. People tell them how good they are doing because they are sober X amount of years and their egos won't let them say anything. Sadly, some of the drink again, others just fade into bitter obscurity, some make the supreme sacrifice and commit suicide.
So, I am thinking that maybe I will start Twelfth-Stepping these kinds of people. I am not saying ignore the newcomers, but they belong to God. Everybody climbs all over themselves to help the newcomer, yet the old-timer is either given a hug and told how great he is because he is sober X amount of years or he is ignored.
p.s.-I'll let you guys in on a little secret. I can identify with the man I was talking about because I have been in his shoes recently.
Jim
Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 112
I hope the 'old-timer with a message' isn't ignored. I do remember when I had 30/60/90 days and couldn't stand some of the old timer's. Thank God they shared their experience, strength and hope with no thought of my approval or disapproval.
We need to shoot for the 'elder statesman' category as we turn into old timers. And we also need to care for our own spiritual needs......not easy. I've heard people share that it gets harder the longer you stay sober. I don't know if that's literal but I think we need to constantly work the steps no matter how long we have.
Don't take it personally if the newcomers won't listen to you. They won't listen to anyone else either. You know, you can tell an alcoholic but you can't tell him much !!!
An old timer who leads by example and humbly shares his e,s+h is a powerful asset to any group, even if they and/or the group don't realize it.
We need to shoot for the 'elder statesman' category as we turn into old timers. And we also need to care for our own spiritual needs......not easy. I've heard people share that it gets harder the longer you stay sober. I don't know if that's literal but I think we need to constantly work the steps no matter how long we have.
Don't take it personally if the newcomers won't listen to you. They won't listen to anyone else either. You know, you can tell an alcoholic but you can't tell him much !!!
An old timer who leads by example and humbly shares his e,s+h is a powerful asset to any group, even if they and/or the group don't realize it.
Originally Posted by jimhere 
Not quite sure as to how to begin here.
Maybe I'll start by saying that sometimes I think that we are far too concerned about the newcomer. And we are ignoring another resource-our old-timers.
I have noticed a growing and disturbing trend. Not sure if it is locally or fellowship wide. You don't see a lot of people with double digit sobriety in the meetings.Especially those with say, twenty-five or more years. Where are they at?
I was talking to a fellow a few days ago. This man has been sober close to thirty years. He was telling me about how about a week or so ago he had "one of those days." I know what he's talking about. The kind of day where it doesn't matter how long sober you are or how good you work the program, everything just goes to hell. And you need some real fellowship, you need to be with your people. Anyway he was telling me that he felt that way last week and on that particular day, he looked in the meeting schedule. Now on any given day in this town you can go to a meeting just about any time. He was telling me that he felt like he needed some real fellowship and not just the social fluff that passes for an AA meeting in this town. And he didn't see any place he could go, so he just stayed home. I told him that I would be glad to talk with him anytime or go to a meeting with him. In fact, I invited him to my home group. More and more I am starting to see that this group isn't necessarily for the newcomer. but geared towards the person with time who is withering on the vine in AA.
In a lot of the meetings here, the old-timer with a message is ignored in favor of the thirty/sixty/ninety day majority. Like my friend recently told me, why go to a place where no one wants what you have and no one wants to hear anything you have to say. I know how he feels, but in all fairness I told him that he can't afford to drift into bitterness and cynicism and that maybe some inventory might be in order.
More and more I am hearing of this dilemma. People with time are dying in quiet desperation in AA. People tell them how good they are doing because they are sober X amount of years and their egos won't let them say anything. Sadly, some of the drink again, others just fade into bitter obscurity, some make the supreme sacrifice and commit suicide.
So, I am thinking that maybe I will start Twelfth-Stepping these kinds of people. I am not saying ignore the newcomers, but they belong to God. Everybody climbs all over themselves to help the newcomer, yet the old-timer is either given a hug and told how great he is because he is sober X amount of years or he is ignored.
p.s.-I'll let you guys in on a little secret. I can identify with the man I was talking about because I have been in his shoes recently.
Jim
Maybe I'll start by saying that sometimes I think that we are far too concerned about the newcomer. And we are ignoring another resource-our old-timers.
I have noticed a growing and disturbing trend. Not sure if it is locally or fellowship wide. You don't see a lot of people with double digit sobriety in the meetings.Especially those with say, twenty-five or more years. Where are they at?
I was talking to a fellow a few days ago. This man has been sober close to thirty years. He was telling me about how about a week or so ago he had "one of those days." I know what he's talking about. The kind of day where it doesn't matter how long sober you are or how good you work the program, everything just goes to hell. And you need some real fellowship, you need to be with your people. Anyway he was telling me that he felt that way last week and on that particular day, he looked in the meeting schedule. Now on any given day in this town you can go to a meeting just about any time. He was telling me that he felt like he needed some real fellowship and not just the social fluff that passes for an AA meeting in this town. And he didn't see any place he could go, so he just stayed home. I told him that I would be glad to talk with him anytime or go to a meeting with him. In fact, I invited him to my home group. More and more I am starting to see that this group isn't necessarily for the newcomer. but geared towards the person with time who is withering on the vine in AA.
In a lot of the meetings here, the old-timer with a message is ignored in favor of the thirty/sixty/ninety day majority. Like my friend recently told me, why go to a place where no one wants what you have and no one wants to hear anything you have to say. I know how he feels, but in all fairness I told him that he can't afford to drift into bitterness and cynicism and that maybe some inventory might be in order.
More and more I am hearing of this dilemma. People with time are dying in quiet desperation in AA. People tell them how good they are doing because they are sober X amount of years and their egos won't let them say anything. Sadly, some of the drink again, others just fade into bitter obscurity, some make the supreme sacrifice and commit suicide.
So, I am thinking that maybe I will start Twelfth-Stepping these kinds of people. I am not saying ignore the newcomers, but they belong to God. Everybody climbs all over themselves to help the newcomer, yet the old-timer is either given a hug and told how great he is because he is sober X amount of years or he is ignored.
p.s.-I'll let you guys in on a little secret. I can identify with the man I was talking about because I have been in his shoes recently.
Jim
Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: The Sunny South
Posts: 1,666
As a newcomer to AA, I really can't speak to the dilemma of the old-timer.
There are probably at least 10 old timers in my home group, which regularly has 25-45 people at a meeting. These old timers chair alot of meetings, and I am thankful they do.
Their experience, strength and hope helps me, and helps keep me coming back. They all have double digit sobriety.
I hope they continue to chair, and share....
Peace.
There are probably at least 10 old timers in my home group, which regularly has 25-45 people at a meeting. These old timers chair alot of meetings, and I am thankful they do.
Their experience, strength and hope helps me, and helps keep me coming back. They all have double digit sobriety.
I hope they continue to chair, and share....
Peace.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,947
We have some old timers at my home group, probably at least a dozen, they don't all show up at once, but always at least 6 or 7... We have the gratitude collection in November and it is suggested that you donate (once) the number of years in dollars... I count the collections sometimes... there were 3 20$ bills just last nite. I'm thinkin' that this is why it's a good group, we have a lot of "old timers"...
An "old timer" (so... we struggled with the definition of a "newcomer" here a couple of weeks ago... what constitutes an old timer? how many years?
) brought in his sponsee last night who slipped after 6 or 7 months... I figured he had since I hadn't seen him for a while.... The slipper only shared that he was back after a slip and was here to start over, period... he talked less than 15 seconds.
I listened and carefully observed how the "old timer" handled his sponsee. It was amazing how well he was able to (humbly) allow the slipper his dignity yet allowing no patronizing bullsh1t like "relapse is a part of recovery"... It was truly a wonderful thing. I guess maybe you had to be there. I will not forget it.
So yes, Jim, they are a resource that ought never be taken for granted. Thanx for your post.
Mark
An "old timer" (so... we struggled with the definition of a "newcomer" here a couple of weeks ago... what constitutes an old timer? how many years?
) brought in his sponsee last night who slipped after 6 or 7 months... I figured he had since I hadn't seen him for a while.... The slipper only shared that he was back after a slip and was here to start over, period... he talked less than 15 seconds.I listened and carefully observed how the "old timer" handled his sponsee. It was amazing how well he was able to (humbly) allow the slipper his dignity yet allowing no patronizing bullsh1t like "relapse is a part of recovery"... It was truly a wonderful thing. I guess maybe you had to be there. I will not forget it.
So yes, Jim, they are a resource that ought never be taken for granted. Thanx for your post.
Mark
Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Southern Colorado
Posts: 1,167
I hear what you say Jim. I remember hearing Janice D say there's a lull of those between 5 and 12 years too.
I know that time takes time and some of my regrets for going back out is the fact that I would have double-digit sobriety if I got it and kept it, but I didn't.
I cannot change the past, but I can honor those that do have time and continue in A.A. Some of them tell me why they continue in A.A.; because they darn well need to. Now that may offend some in other recovery paths; but I was told that perhaps the ego is always with us and grows up along with our spiritual being as well.
I know of a few groups in Denver that have a bunch of very healthy oldtimers, middle timers, newcomers, alike because the continue to do steps... yearly.
This one group in particular has the whole gamut of sobriety, as evidenced by a group list of theirs ( I got this meeting list in 98 and don't have a current one;
6/1/59, 7/2/64, 3/1/66, 6/1/67, 1/1/71, 5/7/72, 2/7/72, 10/18/74, 5/30/75, 2/22/76, 4/3/77, 12/1/77, 5/19/78, 12/1/78, 1/2/79, 1/3/79, 3/11/79, 7/20/79, 9/3/79, 2/28/80, 4/1/80, 10/17/80, 2/24/81, 6/1/81 ,8/4/81, 11/8/81, 3/11/82, 6/29/82, 8/10/82, 10/4/82, 12/27/82, 3/10/83, 5/15/83
11/28/83, 4/14/84, 6/8/84, 8/10/84, 1/5/85, 2/18/85, 7/31/85, 10/10/85
11/24/85, 10/19/86, 10/31/86, 8/25/86, 11/6/87, 12/20/87, 1/1/88, 5/9/88
10/23/88, 2/8/89, 7/31/89, 9/13/89, 9/30/89, 2/2/90 ,6/2/90, 8/1/91
2/21/91, 3/3/91, 8/20/91, 3/30/92, 4/28/92, 11/23/92, 3/6/94, 6/6/95, 10/19/95, 6/16/96, 4/21/96, 8/17/96, 9/14/96, 11/7/96, 11/26/96, 3/18/97, 5/20/97, 1/4/98, 2/7/98, 4/5/98, 9/10/98
The line between oldtimer and newcomer is pretty fine here.
I go to meetings that have what you would call oldtimers, but they give the meeting up to the newer ones willingly. They haven't done any program work in a long time and they seem to be very comfortable with that.
They say stuff like... "Back when I first got sober..."
Add: What the list doesn't readily show is the 10s of people who come to the group every year and almost that many leave. A couple have stayed and remained each and every year because it's a strong group. But why only a couple of each as you go further up the list? Why so many newcomers?
I know that time takes time and some of my regrets for going back out is the fact that I would have double-digit sobriety if I got it and kept it, but I didn't.
I cannot change the past, but I can honor those that do have time and continue in A.A. Some of them tell me why they continue in A.A.; because they darn well need to. Now that may offend some in other recovery paths; but I was told that perhaps the ego is always with us and grows up along with our spiritual being as well.
I know of a few groups in Denver that have a bunch of very healthy oldtimers, middle timers, newcomers, alike because the continue to do steps... yearly.
This one group in particular has the whole gamut of sobriety, as evidenced by a group list of theirs ( I got this meeting list in 98 and don't have a current one;
6/1/59, 7/2/64, 3/1/66, 6/1/67, 1/1/71, 5/7/72, 2/7/72, 10/18/74, 5/30/75, 2/22/76, 4/3/77, 12/1/77, 5/19/78, 12/1/78, 1/2/79, 1/3/79, 3/11/79, 7/20/79, 9/3/79, 2/28/80, 4/1/80, 10/17/80, 2/24/81, 6/1/81 ,8/4/81, 11/8/81, 3/11/82, 6/29/82, 8/10/82, 10/4/82, 12/27/82, 3/10/83, 5/15/83
11/28/83, 4/14/84, 6/8/84, 8/10/84, 1/5/85, 2/18/85, 7/31/85, 10/10/85
11/24/85, 10/19/86, 10/31/86, 8/25/86, 11/6/87, 12/20/87, 1/1/88, 5/9/88
10/23/88, 2/8/89, 7/31/89, 9/13/89, 9/30/89, 2/2/90 ,6/2/90, 8/1/91
2/21/91, 3/3/91, 8/20/91, 3/30/92, 4/28/92, 11/23/92, 3/6/94, 6/6/95, 10/19/95, 6/16/96, 4/21/96, 8/17/96, 9/14/96, 11/7/96, 11/26/96, 3/18/97, 5/20/97, 1/4/98, 2/7/98, 4/5/98, 9/10/98
The line between oldtimer and newcomer is pretty fine here.
I go to meetings that have what you would call oldtimers, but they give the meeting up to the newer ones willingly. They haven't done any program work in a long time and they seem to be very comfortable with that.
They say stuff like... "Back when I first got sober..."
Add: What the list doesn't readily show is the 10s of people who come to the group every year and almost that many leave. A couple have stayed and remained each and every year because it's a strong group. But why only a couple of each as you go further up the list? Why so many newcomers?
Forward we go...side by side-Rest In Peace
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Serene In Dixie
Posts: 36,740
Jim.....I can appreciate your concern and of course...wish you
all the best as you work with any AA member interested
What you described is not happening in my area.
My experience.....I moved here with 9 years in program.
I immediately connected to AA and joined my home group
within a month of checking out various meetings.
Here I am....11 years later....still active and enjoying AA.
I no longer drive...I have a list of members who are
willing to get me to a meeting...as well as being staunch
fellowship friends. They enrich my life in so many ways...
My 20 years is not unusual in my home group.
We have about 25 strong program living members
with double digit years. Maybe the same have less than 1.
The majority are in "teen" years.
Our middle group now does the chairing/committment work
and usually the sponsorshipping. "Pass It On'....
I've never felt unwanted .. unappreciated or unheard.
I consider the key for me is not my years
but staying actively connected to God and AA.
I also wondered why this man did not go to his
home group or call an AA friend?
That's what I do in down times.
all the best as you work with any AA member interested
What you described is not happening in my area.
My experience.....I moved here with 9 years in program.
I immediately connected to AA and joined my home group
within a month of checking out various meetings.
Here I am....11 years later....still active and enjoying AA.
I no longer drive...I have a list of members who are
willing to get me to a meeting...as well as being staunch
fellowship friends. They enrich my life in so many ways...
My 20 years is not unusual in my home group.
We have about 25 strong program living members
with double digit years. Maybe the same have less than 1.
The majority are in "teen" years.
Our middle group now does the chairing/committment work
and usually the sponsorshipping. "Pass It On'....
I've never felt unwanted .. unappreciated or unheard.
I consider the key for me is not my years
but staying actively connected to God and AA.
I also wondered why this man did not go to his
home group or call an AA friend?
That's what I do in down times.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 112
Originally Posted by Cubile75
(so... we struggled with the definition of a "newcomer" here a couple of weeks ago... what constitutes an old timer? how many years? ) Mark
) Mark20 ?
25 ?
It's hard to say. We have an 'old timer' group where one old timer shares for the entire hour. When I was first getting sober 11 or 12 years ago, you had to have 10 years to speak. Now you have to have 20. And there are no shortage of potential speakers. So whatever the magic number is, I think it's up there.
Of coure if you would have asked me at 90 days I would have said 2 years........
God's Kid
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 1,820
In my local groups (which I no longer attend) there was quite a few 'old timers' when I got sober but since then most have died (sober). And while it pains me to admit I am judgemental, the ones left are pretty crazy. I.e. angry, have gambling problems etc... I think I have said this before but there is a guy who calls himself and old timer despite the fact he drinks every so often. He says it doesn't count because he doesn't get drunk.
I also know quite a few old timers who no longer attend meetings because they have been treated pretty badly by other AA members and can't get over the resentment or don't want to get inito the same situation. I.e. sharing things at meetings only to have them repeated by other members in their local community.
Another example is a lady who at 15 years + ended up in a relationship with a guy who beat her and she felt too ashamed to come to meetings. Obviously that relationship eventually ended and she became a regular member again.
At the end of end of last year, me and a friend of mine were laughing about how when we were newcomers, some people with 10+ years seemed so crazy and we certainly didn't want to be like them! And now with both of us at 10 years +, and both of us going crazy for awhile over different things (and not the kind of craziness meetings will fix) I look back and see what it was I did not like in those people and it was their humaness. Alcoholic or not. They weren't perfect and I couldn't stand it.
One of the most recent meetings I went to was a birthday for a chap who celebrated 30 years and it was the best meeting I have been to in along, long time. For me it high lighted how while we are all important old, timers have more expereince dealing with life sober.
Like you Jim, if I bump int an absent member I always suggest maybe they could come back because they've normally said something to me at some stage of my own soberity which has helped me and what a shame it is they feel they have nothing to give.
I also know quite a few old timers who no longer attend meetings because they have been treated pretty badly by other AA members and can't get over the resentment or don't want to get inito the same situation. I.e. sharing things at meetings only to have them repeated by other members in their local community.
Another example is a lady who at 15 years + ended up in a relationship with a guy who beat her and she felt too ashamed to come to meetings. Obviously that relationship eventually ended and she became a regular member again.
At the end of end of last year, me and a friend of mine were laughing about how when we were newcomers, some people with 10+ years seemed so crazy and we certainly didn't want to be like them! And now with both of us at 10 years +, and both of us going crazy for awhile over different things (and not the kind of craziness meetings will fix) I look back and see what it was I did not like in those people and it was their humaness. Alcoholic or not. They weren't perfect and I couldn't stand it.
One of the most recent meetings I went to was a birthday for a chap who celebrated 30 years and it was the best meeting I have been to in along, long time. For me it high lighted how while we are all important old, timers have more expereince dealing with life sober.
Like you Jim, if I bump int an absent member I always suggest maybe they could come back because they've normally said something to me at some stage of my own soberity which has helped me and what a shame it is they feel they have nothing to give.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,697
Thanks Jim..I see it and have talked to members with longer-term sobriety and they have related much of what you describe.
I think it's really about realizing that no amount of time away from a drink makes one different than another...and I find that "their" current experience isn't too far removed from someone with 10 days. IE - the spiritual malady, the feeling of being separate from still exists. While they are not put on pedastals in any way - they seemingly have the fellowship they crave, at least those in my group.
If this thing wasn't about "real" friendships, I don't know how long I would last.
I think it's really about realizing that no amount of time away from a drink makes one different than another...and I find that "their" current experience isn't too far removed from someone with 10 days. IE - the spiritual malady, the feeling of being separate from still exists. While they are not put on pedastals in any way - they seemingly have the fellowship they crave, at least those in my group.
If this thing wasn't about "real" friendships, I don't know how long I would last.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: scotland
Posts: 1,493
good thread jim.im going to completely flip the coin to the other side here.there is a monday night meeting in my area and the last time i was there,there was 26 folk there and the combined sobriety time was approx 375 years (around half the group were 10 years or less and myself was only a couple of months!).so we have one couple and they have combined sobriety of 65 years! they attend the thrus lunchtime meeting i go to which is one of my regulars.a few weeks ago they had been away for 6 weeks,and by the time they had got back i had officially gone through the steps with my sponsor.i went to these folk when i wanted a sponsor and they told me to use the group as a sponsor (very difficult as most of the folk that attend are not real alcohoilics so talk of the steps,spiritual awakenings,or God is very limited!) so that day they got back i shared my esh so far,after the meeting they were very interested in me and wanted to drive me home,all ten miles of it! thats it,ive arrived i thought! lol,,,anyways,as soon as i got in the car they asked me which meetings my bf went to,if i still worked for my uncle,did he pay me plenty and did he have lots of money.so that is what the oldtimers or some of them are like in my area.my friend George however just had his 60th bellybutton birthday,he tried and failed AA many times and was on his death bed last time he got back nearly 2 years ago.he has a sponsor,works the steps rigourously now and he is if you like my spiritual advisor,we talk almost every day and it was him aswell as some good folk on here that turned me on to "the sermon on the mount",i prefer his brand of sobriety.dont get me wrong,the first kind of folk that i was talking about have many words of wisdom and i listen,but unfortunatly in my area there is "own brand" AA from the "old timers".other "old timer" groups in the area,3 of which i know of dont even have the book on the table.so,where do i go now? tuesday night hospital group,one old timer (30+ years) who had a very sudden and vital spiritual experience a bit like Bill.W all those years ago.he has stuck by this meeting for years,and this group is growing and growing whilst the others are shrinking.im delighted for this chap.there are a few of us there under 40 that are working a good programme and have very little sobriety time,but i have a feeling,if we stick around this guy and just do what has been outlined like he has straight from the Big Book,then one day we will be old timers too.Jim im sorry you had this experience and i apoligise for going off topic slightly,just sharing my experience with the "old timers" in my area.
Member
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,861
Hey Jim,
You and I have shared off-line about this issue. I know that I struggle attending AA meetings altogether. I feel like a baptist in a mosque when I sit in most AA meetings. I have taken to occasionally reminding some of the newcomers who allow me to be of service how much they save my ass regularly, if it wasn't for the few who allow me to be of service I am certain I would be done with all of this. I get disgusted with the fellowship, (face to face and cyber world), I thank God for the few slivers I get. If that sounds angry to anyone here, sit in meetings for 20 years and watch the change, watch the thing that saved you morph into something different, watch your friends turn a blind eye to actual things that go terribly wrong in our fellowship and tell me...
How would you feel?????
You and I have shared off-line about this issue. I know that I struggle attending AA meetings altogether. I feel like a baptist in a mosque when I sit in most AA meetings. I have taken to occasionally reminding some of the newcomers who allow me to be of service how much they save my ass regularly, if it wasn't for the few who allow me to be of service I am certain I would be done with all of this. I get disgusted with the fellowship, (face to face and cyber world), I thank God for the few slivers I get. If that sounds angry to anyone here, sit in meetings for 20 years and watch the change, watch the thing that saved you morph into something different, watch your friends turn a blind eye to actual things that go terribly wrong in our fellowship and tell me...
How would you feel?????
Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Northern California
Posts: 204
I am grateful that I belong to a fellowship that is rich in active oldtimers with double digit sobriety. Every month at birthday night there has been at least one person with about the same amount of time sober that I have been alive, that always blows my mind. For whatever reason all of them in my fellowship happen to be men, so I have not reached out to any of them personally for support, although one did 12 step me of his own accord in a very touching way I won't soon forget.
Another Day in Paradise
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Upland, CA
Posts: 900
Good thread and a lot to consider in this topic. I know when I started in AA the meeting that got me sober and kept me that way for the first three years was approximately 30-35% members with over 10 years and several that had 20+. As time went on both that meeting and a sister meeting held on the same evenings became a hot bed for alcoholics/addicts who wanted to challenge anyone who reminded them that this was AA and while many folks are dual addicted it became almost a battle cry to defy the concept of AA as a fellowship of alcoholics. I watched several older members literally shouted down and heaped with disrespect when they sought to remind the newer members that there should be a singleness of purpose.
Sadly these meetings and many others that were increasingly populated by the recent "graduates" of treatment centers became a Wild West show of who had the most outrageous story about their exploits and their "dealers stories," soon I noticed that the old timers simply drifted away. After awhile I began attending fewer meetings and sometimes had to force myself to go at all. For the next 5 years or so I rarely made more than 1 meeting a week, that being a guided meditation meeting on Sunday mornings. I was also “invited” to a shuttered meeting held in a members home that was populated by 10 to 15 men and women who are prominent in the media and politics and chose this venue to protect their anonymity after some rather ugly instances where new members had shared with friends and family “guess who I saw in my AA meeting!” This group is very enjoyable from a philosophical viewpoint, but precludes the opportunity to work with the newcomer.
Over the past 2 to 3 years I have found meetings that are heavily populated by folks with 10 years plus where AA is a fellowship of recovered and recovering alcoholics who share about and discuss recovery and sober life. Newcomers who find these meetings seem much more likely to discuss their recovery and what life is like sober. Not so many stories about how wild and crazy they were, but how grateful they are now.
In short, there seems to have been a migration of old timers to more "friendly" environments and the Wild West shows seem to do a land office business in both attendance and a CONSTANT turn over of attendees. In a way from my perspective, Mr. Darwin's theory of survival of the fittest seems to be in operation with regard to both meetings and groups and those who attend these meetings.
Please understand that I am not advocating segregation based on time, in fact that would insure the ultimate extinction of AA, but what I do see is that meetings that attract and hold the old timer as members are also very healthy places for the newcomer who plans on being an old timer.
Jon
Sadly these meetings and many others that were increasingly populated by the recent "graduates" of treatment centers became a Wild West show of who had the most outrageous story about their exploits and their "dealers stories," soon I noticed that the old timers simply drifted away. After awhile I began attending fewer meetings and sometimes had to force myself to go at all. For the next 5 years or so I rarely made more than 1 meeting a week, that being a guided meditation meeting on Sunday mornings. I was also “invited” to a shuttered meeting held in a members home that was populated by 10 to 15 men and women who are prominent in the media and politics and chose this venue to protect their anonymity after some rather ugly instances where new members had shared with friends and family “guess who I saw in my AA meeting!” This group is very enjoyable from a philosophical viewpoint, but precludes the opportunity to work with the newcomer.
Over the past 2 to 3 years I have found meetings that are heavily populated by folks with 10 years plus where AA is a fellowship of recovered and recovering alcoholics who share about and discuss recovery and sober life. Newcomers who find these meetings seem much more likely to discuss their recovery and what life is like sober. Not so many stories about how wild and crazy they were, but how grateful they are now.
In short, there seems to have been a migration of old timers to more "friendly" environments and the Wild West shows seem to do a land office business in both attendance and a CONSTANT turn over of attendees. In a way from my perspective, Mr. Darwin's theory of survival of the fittest seems to be in operation with regard to both meetings and groups and those who attend these meetings.
Please understand that I am not advocating segregation based on time, in fact that would insure the ultimate extinction of AA, but what I do see is that meetings that attract and hold the old timer as members are also very healthy places for the newcomer who plans on being an old timer.
Jon
Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 35
Thank you, Jim for this topic -- its definitely not one you can bring up in a meeting but it is definitely worth discussing.
I know when I came in there were oldtimers galore, averaging 15-35 years, and when they would speak I would always leave the meetings wanting to hear, know and feel more of what they had. Although the one thing they never talked about was what it was like for them to be "oldtimers."
Now, over 20 years and 24 hours later, I really wish I had asked them that question as most of them have passed -- sober. My experience until recently has had me still wanting more -- and feeling, for lack of a better word, empty -- regardless of the number of newcomers I spoke with, the number of meetings I attended, the number of BB pages read, or the number of prayers said that day.
Finally, the dam broke. A couple, with over 60 years between them, asked 6 of "us" who were experiencing this "emptiness" to join them for a big book study. At first I was skeptical of a BB study utilizing CDs from a BB study thats geared towards the more seasoned member but I also felt like I had nothing to lose while possibly everything to gain. We meet every Sunday evening for 2 hours, starting with our "homework" before delving into the CD. What broke my dam was recognizing that I have been denying Grace, feeling more and more undeserving of Him and His Gift. Since breaking down and admitting this to my fellow studiers I am for the first time in a long time finding that me and my glass are actually feeling half full versus thinking its half full
Just my most recent esh... thank you again Jim.
I know when I came in there were oldtimers galore, averaging 15-35 years, and when they would speak I would always leave the meetings wanting to hear, know and feel more of what they had. Although the one thing they never talked about was what it was like for them to be "oldtimers."
Now, over 20 years and 24 hours later, I really wish I had asked them that question as most of them have passed -- sober. My experience until recently has had me still wanting more -- and feeling, for lack of a better word, empty -- regardless of the number of newcomers I spoke with, the number of meetings I attended, the number of BB pages read, or the number of prayers said that day.
Finally, the dam broke. A couple, with over 60 years between them, asked 6 of "us" who were experiencing this "emptiness" to join them for a big book study. At first I was skeptical of a BB study utilizing CDs from a BB study thats geared towards the more seasoned member but I also felt like I had nothing to lose while possibly everything to gain. We meet every Sunday evening for 2 hours, starting with our "homework" before delving into the CD. What broke my dam was recognizing that I have been denying Grace, feeling more and more undeserving of Him and His Gift. Since breaking down and admitting this to my fellow studiers I am for the first time in a long time finding that me and my glass are actually feeling half full versus thinking its half full
Just my most recent esh... thank you again Jim.
Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 700
Jim,
I'm glad you said 25 or more years !! Then I'm not an old timer I don't feel like one.
I gave my sponsor 27 year chip a few weeks ago. For most of those years he has never had a sponsor. I have been suggesting he find one. Being patient, He asked somebody with 2 years of sobriety. That has been in and out of this program for 28 years. This time he did the deal and is on fire, almost glowing. A miracle. My Sponsor said he picked him because this man has a strong spiritual component to his life.
He asked me if I thought he was crazy, I see nothing wrong with it, and said It was a great choice.
I agree with Steve, We had some bad meetings for years in my town, which led to sick fellowship. In my Wed night meeting a few old timers started picking the topics - The steps or passages in the BB. And always started the meeting getting it on track right away. The content of those meetings changed, and the fellowship followed along. I think sick meetings with sick fellowship have a content problem.
Who's responsibility is it to change the content? That has been beat to death in this forum. But I think it is the root of the problem with sick fellowship.
I have daily living problems like everybody else. I have meetings and a strong healthy fellowship I can call on at anytime. I hope your man can find his.
I'm glad you said 25 or more years !! Then I'm not an old timer
I don't feel like one.I gave my sponsor 27 year chip a few weeks ago. For most of those years he has never had a sponsor. I have been suggesting he find one. Being patient, He asked somebody with 2 years of sobriety. That has been in and out of this program for 28 years. This time he did the deal and is on fire, almost glowing. A miracle. My Sponsor said he picked him because this man has a strong spiritual component to his life.
He asked me if I thought he was crazy, I see nothing wrong with it, and said It was a great choice.
I agree with Steve, We had some bad meetings for years in my town, which led to sick fellowship. In my Wed night meeting a few old timers started picking the topics - The steps or passages in the BB. And always started the meeting getting it on track right away. The content of those meetings changed, and the fellowship followed along. I think sick meetings with sick fellowship have a content problem.
Who's responsibility is it to change the content? That has been beat to death in this forum. But I think it is the root of the problem with sick fellowship.
I have daily living problems like everybody else. I have meetings and a strong healthy fellowship I can call on at anytime. I hope your man can find his.
Last edited by AW2486; 12-01-2009 at 04:58 PM.
Member
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,861
Who's responsibility is it to change the content?
So is an 'oldtimer' someone with twenty years or more? I am seriously asking. Cause I don't know.
Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
