nandm

This thread has taken on a life of it's own ...... lol

Barto

When I saw this thread started by REZ, I thought someone would take it all the way home as few ever do. So, let me be the first here to ask you: “What ‘exactly’ is a mood or mind altering drug?”

Let me share this literature with you before you answer, if you have the courage to opine. Please read before snapping to judgment:

http://www.aa.org/pdf/products/p-35_...anAlcohol1.pdf

http://www.aa.org/pdf/products/p-11_...ersMedDrug.pdf

http://www.drugabuse.gov/JSP/MOD6/cards.pdf

Tobacco, Nicotine - NIDA Drugs of Abuse and Related Topics

What do those of you that espouse that “you must abstain from all mood altering drugs to be sober” say now? Don’t be shy. Are you going to change your date?

I believe drugs are an outside issue in AA, as does AA conference approved literature. However, personally, I would consider changing my sobriety date if I took ‘certain drugs’ for recreational purposes.

As for the disease concept, I agree that it is Silkworth’s notion – and not really adopted by the Big Book which presents the notion as the "medical estimate" (not AA’s point of view). The book states merely that the notion make sense to us. Whether it is true, I don’t know, and I’m not sure I really care. Would it change the solution?

PS. I love a good speaker, circuit or not.

And here's another worthy link:

http://www.caffeinedependence.org/ca...ependence.html

FightingIrish

As I finish my third 24 oz. cup of the day...

DaveBB164

interestingly Dr Silkworth does not use the word disease, malady or illness, which are all synonyms of each other, however he does use the word allergy

"The doctor’s theory that we have an allergy to alcohol interests us. As laymen, our opinion as to its soundness may, of course, mean little. But as ex-problem drinkers, we can say that his explanation makes good sense. It explains many things for which we cannot otherwise account".

the "medical estimte" is of the plan of recovery described in the Big Book, without Dr Silkworths opinion I do not believe AA would have happened, Bill W understand the hopelessness of his alcoholism from Dr Silkworth , it is only when we fully comprehend the fatality of a problem do we seek a solution, Dr Bob understood it because Bill explained the Drs opinion, Bill had been 100% unsuccessful in helping another alcoholic previously,

to be honest Barto I don't fully understand your motive or reasoning with the caffeine and nicotine stuff its all a bit pedantic to me,

I never went out got loaded on caffeine and woke up next to some girl I never knew the name of, I never woke up after a belly full of coffee with a guilt and remorse and fear so bad I wanted to die, I never stole from my wife's purse to get a mocha

I am not being silly its just things need to be put into some kind of perspective and seen for what they really are.

Barto

I never woke up next to a stranger behind pot either. It made me anxious and tended to make me isolate (much the way caffeine affects me now). So, can I smoke pot and be sober? Are you saying that I can take mind altering drugs as long as they don’t cause blackouts?

The points are: 1) some of us use the terms “mind altering” and “mood altering” way too loosely. Caffeine and nicotine are undisputedly mind (& mood) altering drugs, as are many prescribed meds; and 2) many AA’s use mind altering drugs and don’t change their date. So why do we say no “mind altering drugs” when that’s not what we mean, and certainly not the way we live?

The reason I make these very valid points is: 1) I believe in being literal; and 2) many such statements cause afflicted people to go off doctor prescribed medications to their detriment.

I guess I believe in AA’s singleness of purpose. But that said, for myself, I add other drugs to my list that would constitute a slip. But just because I add them, doesn’t mean I require anyone else to. And I work with guys that are drinking, too, as Ebby did with Bill.

And the root of the "spiritual experience solution" we have comes from Roland Hazard’s last visit with Dr. Jung, not from Silkworth. It was Hazard who, after seeing Jung, carried this message to Ebby who then carried it to Bill.

So my question remains, what exactly is a mind altering drug? Can you define this term so that it jives with your definition of sobriety? (Let’s just assume ... because it’s true ... that all mood altering drugs are necessarily mind altering.)

For the record, I don’t smoke pot, or do any illegal drugs. If I did, I would change my date.

Additionally, I think the use of the word pedantic is pedantic. LOL.

Barto

You go Irish. Have one for me, and help me make my point! LOL. Really, I wish I could have one with you.

DaveBB164

Barto,

Forgive me, I am on the same page as you now,

I never said the solution came from Silkworth, Silkworth gave Bill the full problem although he had certain understandings of a solution

Barto

No problem, Dave. It’s all good.

McGowdog

So he made you feel like an idiot, or you chose to feel like an idiot-er moron?

See, that's why I don't have a sponsor. I just do the deal.

The "disease" controversy/argument was never mine in the first place. I see a lot of posters with a lot of opinions about AA and about "Alcoholism" in general that use it as a bone of contention. I could really care less if it's a disease or not.

I don't think you have to be a brain surgeon... or an electrical engineer such as myself... to get this thing. I think you can Forrest Gump this thing and get it. In fact, all that "knowledge" is just a cross to bear, and that's so very much my experience. I have this huge road block from my head to God. Or as they say, "To experience God, you've gotta be out of your mind." Get out here!

There's this guy in my hometown who talks about degrees and how they belong on thermometers and where you can stick your thermometer... Laffe is laaack a bowx of choklates... y'nvr nowhatchurgonnagit!

Love that emoticon! Thx nandm!

Lightweight. Anybody who goes off on the dangers of coffee just ain't my kind of people. I think they're evil.

Right! He does use the word "addict" though... which I don't like so much. But another can of worms.

jimhere

Come on Patrick, no need to belittle people here. I come from the same line of sponsorship as you do and my first sponsor had me get a dicionary. I do the same with the guys I work with.

Knowing the meaning of a wiord and where it comes from can change the entire meaning of a sentence or a paragraph. I've had spiritual awakenings chasing words around in the dictionary.
Jim

McGowdog

Sheesh! I feel like I'm at home or something!

But I went to MSU. Make Sh... Up!

My last attempt at sobriety... when I last came back in, I just came in, sat down, drank my coffee...and pretty much listened. I did what I was told and stuff, but the only time I cracked the book was to do my inventory, 5th step it...blahblahblah... ammends. Then I prayed and meditated. When I spoke, it was with regards to the topic and strictly my experience. I went for a year without the need to debate and argue.

It was so peaceful. Eventually, my brain woke back up or something. Then I had to know something again. I sometimes miss that 1st year.

DaveBB164

To get the full meaning of what I am reading I need to be able to read things in the context they were written, in order to do that I need to understand the syntax and semantics which requires a dictionary,

like Jim says the meaning of a word and where it comes from can change the entire meaning of a sentence,

if I am reading and take words for what I think they mean I am putting my own slant on it and not seeing the true meaning of what is written.

navysteve

I didn't realize that if a sponsor was telling a newbie to get a dictionary he was making them feel stupid. My first sponsor told me to shower everyday, that made me feel clean, not stupid. It was something I didn't always do when I was out there running around.

ian_g

That's true thinking back I didn't brush my teeth for weeks...when I got sober I think I ended up with 8 cavities as a result of total disregard for hygiene in any matter.

It's funny that you guys bring up the dictionary and looking words up. I remember feeling offended by having to use one. I thought that since I got into a good college I knew everything. I was too "prideful" to steep that low to use a dictionary. I still had that mentality of "I know everything and you can't tell me something I don't know". I know now that you can't help someone who already knows everything. I got my a.ss kicked in some more of course.

Last time in...I picked up the dictionary LOL.

Eroica

I guess I'm just an a**hole because if anyone ever told me to get a dictionary.. let's just say they're not gonna hear from me any time soon. You're pretty much evading the question. Anyone can understand a dictionary entry. Dictionaries don't teach anything. lol If a person isn't understanding something, its either because its not being explained right or not explained enough. Or, as is the case with the word "disease", just makes no sense at all in the context of addiction IMO.

RufusACanal

Sponsorship 101

There is no "clean" in AA, unless it has something to do with personal hygiene; soap with the water is not optional. Furthermore, traditionally speaking, AA already have a proven system of how to work with those who infringe on our single of purpose; "don't let the door hit ya where the God Lord split ya."

Enlarging my ability to discern information has allowed me to enlarge other areas of my life, particularly my spiritual life; grab a dicitionary and please look attentive and shut up as I continue my tirade.

Anyone care for some COFFEE !!!

jimhere

True enough. But I think true understanding comes from experience. Something has to happen. It has to go from the head to the heart.

freya

Eroica: You might try looking at it this way: When someone tells you to go get a dictionary, he is exhibiting faith in the fact that you can learn to figure things out and to understand things for yourself, and he is providing you with some direction as to how to go about doing that.

On the other hand, when people just give you the answers (which, of course, will be their answers BTW) they are babying you, keeping you dependent on them, and, not only really treating you like an idiot, but behaving so as to ensure that you remain an idiot (usually, on some level, because they want to be able to feel "better" than you and/or maintain some kind of power or control over you). That's what's otherwise known as "enabling," and enabling is really not such a helpful behavior for alcoholics, who are trying to get sober, to be receiving from the people who care about them.

Also, the fact that a person new to recovery is being encouraged, on even a very minimal and basic level such as this, to do for and find out for himself, can help to build self-esteem. Self-esteem depends on one's learning to act and acting in esteemable ways. What is esteemable about relying on someone else -- be it a parent, a partner, a sponsor or anyone else -- to just do it all for you and give it all to you?

freya

jimhere

Very true Freya.

My sponsor told me to question everything and not take his word for it, but to find out for myself. He encouraged me to think for myself.
Jim

McGowdog

Well if they rewrote their interpretation of the steps, I think it would go a little like this:

So after reading the Orange Papers, let's rewrite the steps, shall we?

1. Admitted that our parents are terrible and it's the world's fault.

2. Came to believe that reliance on God is weak and a cop-out. Call it a disease and beg the Gov't for money.
3. Made a decision to smoke lots of cigarettes and drink lots of coffee.

4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of everybody else in the room.

5. Admitted to me myself and I that if I ever get as bad as those others, I'm gonna ask for help.

6. Were entirely ready to pontificate on what this program is all about.

7. Humbly looked into the mirror and compared my outsides to your insides.

8. Made of list of people who owe me money.

9. Made direct ammends and told people what I really think about them.

10. Continued to find excuses for my behavior and unique ways of blaming others.

11. Sought through Praise and Medication to improve my mood and ask God to help me feel good.

12. Give freely of everything I've learned.

How's that?