Pinkcuda

Willingness, honesty and open mindedness are the essentials of our recovery.
An "Open Mind" will also let the old ideas out. Remember the old ideas we tried to hang on to and the result was "Nil" until we let go absolutley? One of those old ideas was he idea that we could be sober and do drugs at the same time while hiding behind Tradition 3.
Is the "Sponsee" willing, honest and open minded?
Tell him to come see you when he is. That's my two cents.

McGowdog

I hear a bunch of junk about "disease" these days. I don't think Bill and Bob ever described it as such. Dr Silkworth mentions it in the Dr's Opinion and it's brought up again in the last 4 chapters that I don't work with. Oh, and I know... "all forms of spiritual disease yadayadayada.

How about this statement?

I don't even want to get into this debate. Disease is a doctor's term, not mine.

So I want to learn more about how labelling alcohol and drugs as being the "same disease" is correct but "a drug is a drug is a drug" isn't. I disagree with both, but I don't come here to argue. I just want to learn why you say that's different.

I'm an alky. I did/do steps and I don't want to drink booze, nor do I want to get high. That's a freaking miracle and I don't want to mess with it. I don't smoke weed and I don't raid my wife's medicine cabinet. I know she has oxy and percocet (sp? same thing?) rotting away in the cabinet. I take aspirin or advil if I'm in pain.

If I was coming from the state of having to hide it or justify it, the group could come down on me bigtime. But ultimately, I'd be back out drinking again.

I smoked weed once when I'd been sober for a while in AA, then the time came where I drank again and didn't have to worry about lying about my sobriety date. Which came first? Bauck bauck.

Bill W took LSD! What happened to his sobriety date after that?

Bill W was a nutcase who I'd never attempt to emulate! Oops. Did I say that out loud?

Seriously though, Dr Bob was the one who stayed spiritual and worked steps. And I doubt he had to take LSD to kick his depression. That's the guy I want to know more about.

DaveBB164

Yep you said it out loud, lol, good point about Bills sobriety date, never thought of that before,

must admit I agree with what you said about Dr Bob, he is the guy I research the most, not that I have anything against Bill.

navysteve

It sure is coming off that way. I used the word disease simply because it is understood, alcoholism and addiction are classified as diseases. I ain't here to argue that and won't. Read my previous posts and see where I stand. Agree or don't. I don't care.

Here is my post again:

They are the same because they are treated with the same 12 steps. They are both spiritual maladies. Both substances are a symptom of a much larger problem. And although NA's 12 steps bare little resemblance to AA's, CA has been using the Big Book of AA to help addicts recover and it has been working. The only reason I mention other fellowships here on an AA forum is to address your post.


I guess Iam in the nutcase category as well. I relate to Bill way more than I do Bob. I learn from Bill, who was a power driver and glory seeker ( and many other things) yet he never took that honorary degree from a prestigious school, or accepted the Man of the Year nomination. He had human flaws galore and utilized the AA program to work on them. How many of us would not get big egos if we were the co-founders of AA???? It is easy to Deify Dr Bob and vilify Bill. Bob was only with us 15 years and Bill had a whole lot of other problems besides alcohol. I don't place Bill on any pedestal but he has shown me alot ( and I never met him)

I won't debate, argue, or go tit for tat with you here. You can PM me if you want to straighten me out ( it probably won't help though)
Enjoy

McGowdog

Don't. Neenerneenerneener!

And I appreciate that. It's good to know CAs are getting recovery and the BB works for them too.

I don't know what to do with addicts because most meetings I go to are closed AA. I'd like to know I could send them to a recovered addict. I just come from a lineage that tought me that we can't be everything to everybody.

Straighten you out?!?!?! I'm the newbie here!

I just want to know if anybody speaks AA in here!

Oh, and with respect to the OP... "we recoil from it as from a hot flame." If that's not going on for a person in recovery, do the first 10 steps and re-examine that point.

Pinkcuda

At first glance it looks like we recoil from AA discussion as it was a hot flame. Almost like a real meeting!

McGowdog

Ef'in A buddy.

Mark75

FWIW...

Bill W. used LSD under the supervision of Aldous Huxley and it was, at the time, legitimate psychological research... He didn't go down to Haight Ashbury and drop acid while listening to the Grateful Dead. He didn't score it from Oswley or Ken Kesey out on the street...

I, personally, kind of like it that Bill W. was a little wacky... I am myself... No one can speak for Bill, but I honestly believe that Bill's experiments with LSD, which I believe predated the popular culture's love affair with acid, were an honest attempt at advancing the understanding of alcoholism, not a recreational activity.

I don't think he needed to change his sober date...

Just my 2 cents...

McGowdog

Oh I don't either. I loved to trip, btw. 4 bucks and 12 hours of bliss!

So what if he enjoyed it? All I know is that I wouldn't try it now. It would, as someone else in here stated, kill and ongoing spiritual regime and awakening.

aka, I don't need it.

Mark75

Wouldn't touch it.

Ago

Bill W basically founded AA (with Dr Bob) and wrote the majority of the big book and you call him a "nut job"???

then wonder if anyone "speaks AA" in here?

LoL

Bill was grandiose and quite a salesman. He, on occasion was pretty full of himself, and on occasion was full of sh1te. He, however, learned from his mistakes, a quality others could do well to emulate.

You may have more in common with Bill then you realize, except of course for the small fact that you didn't write a program that has saved millions of lives I mean.

I by no means deify the guy, but I don't have brass balls big enough to get sober using a program he basically put together and then run him down.

The description of a "disease" is an unhealthy state of mind or body that has recognizable signs and symptoms.

Sounds a bit like alcoholism to me.

FightingIrish

*smile*...when I said "I judge", I meant "I judge." I do - all the time. Lately there've been people announcing in meetings that they're just coming back, and I sort of suck my teeth and roll my eyes in a knee-jerk fashion. I don't know why I do that, but I'm trying not to.

I told a guy I was working with that he wasn't done. That said, I still call him, answer his calls, see him from time to time. Heck, I even bought him a beer. He will do the program when he is ready to do the program. And while I'm not his rescue nurse, if he at any point comes to me looking for help, I will do my best to help him.

So yes, I will not be inclined to spend much effort being proactive with someone who has no willingness, but if someone is struggling and proceeding in a two steps forward, one step back fashion, I'm not going to refuse.

M

DaveBB164

I have had the pleasure of working with a couple of guys who swore blind they did not identify with Bill Wilson.......................they do now,

for me Bill Wilsons story in the Big Book is the most sublime literary 12 step call anyone could ever hope to read.

navysteve

Its amazing how many people love to bash Bill. Regardless of what anyone thinks, we all owe our lives to all of our founders. God surely worked miracles through those first few. There are alot of AA revisionists who see New York as Babylon. Its amazing to me, because when I look at those guys I see men and women who overcame the impossible, yet many sit back now and judge them. Dr Bob is considered a saint by many yet he believed that women could ruin AA meetings, many of the first 100 didn't want blacks in AA meetings ( let alone addicts/ homosexuals etc...) . Clarence Snyder was... lets just say a little on the angry side. Yet the fellowship has grown to be all inclusive in our hopes that every alcoholic can get recovery. It is far from perfect this is true, and we should never fear pointing out the human frailties of our members ( especially the ones we put up on pedestals) but we have to remember what they did .

jimhere

I identify with Bill Wilson immensly. Don't know if it is a good thing or a bad thing, but I know that I have an ego and that no matter what I do, I can't defeat it. I can just make friends with it and make fun of it. My ego only gets me in trouble when it becomes the servant and not the master.

As for someone claiming to be sober in AA while using drugs and then using the excuse that AA is about alcohol, I call ********. Yes AA is about alcoholism, but sobriety is far more than abstinence from alcohol. It is a state of mind and a state of being. It is clarity of thought.

There are some exceptions. Bill's use of LSD was mentioned. In the early days, LSD was not used with the intent of "tripping" or "getting high." It was used as an aid in a genuine spiritual search. I'm not advocating the use of LSD, but at the time, it was believed to have some genuine use.

The Native American Church's use of peyote as a sacrement is another example. It is well known that alcoholism has ravaged American Indian tribes since the first white settlers introduced them to alcohol. Peyote has been used to maintain sobriety in the NAC. Not only abstinence from alcohol., but to maintain the clarity of thought required to live a truly spiritual way of life.

All that being said, I think I'll just stick to the Twelve Step path.
Jim

navysteve

That is how I feel Jim. There are no saint Bill statues in my home.

ian_g

Great point Jim. I know this when individuals question whether or not what they are doing is "kosher" in their heart, they know it isn't. The alcoholic mind can convince us that what we are doing isn't wrong. As George from Seinfeld said, "It isn't a lie if you really really believe it to be true". I lived my life convincing myself and justifying what I was doing. Eventually I started to believe that everything was alright. I truly believe no lie that if I used and it wasn't my stash, then I was still clean and sober. I convinced myself that I was. The wall eventually crumbles and I'm left facing the harsh reality that I tried to avoid for so long. I know today that when individuals question what they are either doing or thinking about doing, there is usually at least a hint of the feeling that maybe what I'm about to do isn't the right thing, or else they wouldn't be asking me what I think about it.

McGowdog

Oh absolutely! I'm a nutjob too!

AA is for EF-ups!

Tell me otherwise.

Oh how smug of you!

Oh no you di-int sister!

Look at the context with which I brought the thing up!

People were talking about doing drugs and keeping their sobriety date!

That's it! Bill died sober in my book. But he did take LSD! Period! I'm a Dr Bob kind of guy! I thought the 12 x 12 was chalk full of horsebleep and the AA pamplets are garbage too! We don't use that stuff in our meetings! Bill W was a service freak and thank God he was! But that's not my path! Get it?


Tell it to the judge. AA, by it's own traditions does not get into controversial topics like the Disease Concept. Show me anywhere undisputed evidence that AA endorsed, pushed, or otherwise signed off on the "Disease" label! I don't care what it "sounds like".

ian_g

Ok I have to agree here with you. It says in the BB that it is an illness that centers in the mind. I was told that a disease centers in the body and an illness centers in the mind.

McGowdog

Sober, but not clean. I get that too. But eventually, I take a shower.

Thanks, Ian_g... I guess my whole contention about this is all the flak AA is getting from minions of the Orange Papers and stuff. I don't read or look at that trash, but I'm seeing sheeple with nothing better to do than dog AA.

Did the disease concept not come about to further the industry of "alcoholism" and enable insurance to get involved?

Tell me it's not about money.