A Selfish Program
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Southern New Hampshire
Posts: 746
A Selfish Program
I heard it twice this week at anniversary meetings no less, "This is a selfish program
I have a blue book with the title Alcoholics Anonymous on the cover. It tells me that selfishness is the root of all my trouble, it further goes on to say I must be rid of this selfishness or it will kill me. I have written enough inventory to see that this is my experience.
A friend of mine says it is a program of enlightened self interest, which is a lot different. It implies my ongoing recovery is directly related to how willing I am to give away what I have been so freely given.
AA is a selfless program for incredibly selfish people.
I have a blue book with the title Alcoholics Anonymous on the cover. It tells me that selfishness is the root of all my trouble, it further goes on to say I must be rid of this selfishness or it will kill me. I have written enough inventory to see that this is my experience.
A friend of mine says it is a program of enlightened self interest, which is a lot different. It implies my ongoing recovery is directly related to how willing I am to give away what I have been so freely given.
AA is a selfless program for incredibly selfish people.
problem with authority
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 870
selfish programs
Rob, thanks.
I just realized I haven't heard that one in a while. I used to hear it all the time when I was in rehab, it felt like every person who came in to talk to us said they were there for themselves and not us.
In a strange way though I believe it got the message across to me that doing service would be necessary for my sobriety. Selfishness was a language I could understand best at that time.
-M
I just realized I haven't heard that one in a while. I used to hear it all the time when I was in rehab, it felt like every person who came in to talk to us said they were there for themselves and not us.
In a strange way though I believe it got the message across to me that doing service would be necessary for my sobriety. Selfishness was a language I could understand best at that time.
-M
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: witness protection program
Posts: 378
Rob thanks for mentioning that.... you're right. It never says in the BB that aa is "a selfish program." In fact we are told that freedom from self-will is the only path to freedom. I dunno where the "selfish program" BS got started, but I am glad you pointed it out.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,697
I must have missed the part that says worrying and being concerned with myself will ensure immunity from drinking when all else fails
Oh wait - that would be working with other alcoholics - not a real selfish act if you ask me.
Tks Rob
Oh wait - that would be working with other alcoholics - not a real selfish act if you ask me.
Tks Rob
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: witness protection program
Posts: 378
Someone should start a thread dedicated to BS ideas and sayings that go around meetings, yet are not in the BB and have nothing to do with alcoholics anonymous. I'm sure we could come up with a litany of examples.
On a another note, "Take what you want and leave the rest" .... correct me if I'm wrong, but that one isn't in the BB is it?
I have noticed (like other people have) that this has been interpreted by many as pertaining to the 12 steps of AA---- not what people say in meetings as was intended.
On a another note, "Take what you want and leave the rest" .... correct me if I'm wrong, but that one isn't in the BB is it?
I have noticed (like other people have) that this has been interpreted by many as pertaining to the 12 steps of AA---- not what people say in meetings as was intended.
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,002
SAY IT LOUD BROTHER!!!
How Bill W. refuted that 'A.A. is a SELFISH program.'
Another correspondent complained directly that he had been "disturbed to hear some A.A. speakers say, 'A.A. is a selfish program.'" The co-founder's response was eventually published in "The A.A. Way of Life":
I can see why you are disturbed.... The word "selfish" ordinarily implies that one is acquisitive, demanding, and thoughtless of the welfare of others. Of course, the A.A. way of life does not at all imply such undesirable traits.
What do these speakers mean? Well, any theologian will tell you that the salvation of his own soul is the highest vocation that a man can have. Without salvation - however we may define this - he will have little or nothing. For us in A.A. there is even more urgency.
If we cannot or will not achieve sobriety, then we become truly lost, right in the here and now. We are of no value to anyone, including ourselves, until we find salvation from alcohol. Therefore, our own recovery and spiritual growth have to come first - a right and necessary kind of self-concern.
From "Not-God, A History of Alcoholics Anonymous", pp. 243-244, by Ernest Kurtz.
A tabulation of words in the Big Book which contain the root "self".
Word Group Self-Word Count
Character Virtues
self-control 1
self-discipline 2
self-respect 1
self-searching 1
unselfish 1
unselfishness 2
Total 8
Character Defects
self-centered 3
self-centeredness 3
self-deception 1
self-destruction 1
self-esteem 7 *
selfish 11
selfishly 1
selfishness 3
self-justification 1
self-pity 11
self-pitying 1
self-seeker 1
self-seeking 4
self-supporting 1
Total 49
Other
self-appraisal 3
self-confidence 2
self-confident 1
self-conscious 1
self-consciousness 1
self-evident 1
self-imposed 1
self-propulsion 1
self-reliance 3
self-revealing 1
self-sacrifice 2
self-sacrificing 2
self-sufficiency 1
self-will 5
Total 25
Prepositions
herself 2
himself 75
itself 7
myself 22
ourselves 1
self 5
thyself 2
yourself 25
Total 139
Overall Total 221
From above posted site. Good stuff
A.A. is NOT a selfish program
Tom
How Bill W. refuted that 'A.A. is a SELFISH program.'
Another correspondent complained directly that he had been "disturbed to hear some A.A. speakers say, 'A.A. is a selfish program.'" The co-founder's response was eventually published in "The A.A. Way of Life":
I can see why you are disturbed.... The word "selfish" ordinarily implies that one is acquisitive, demanding, and thoughtless of the welfare of others. Of course, the A.A. way of life does not at all imply such undesirable traits.
What do these speakers mean? Well, any theologian will tell you that the salvation of his own soul is the highest vocation that a man can have. Without salvation - however we may define this - he will have little or nothing. For us in A.A. there is even more urgency.
If we cannot or will not achieve sobriety, then we become truly lost, right in the here and now. We are of no value to anyone, including ourselves, until we find salvation from alcohol. Therefore, our own recovery and spiritual growth have to come first - a right and necessary kind of self-concern.
From "Not-God, A History of Alcoholics Anonymous", pp. 243-244, by Ernest Kurtz.
A tabulation of words in the Big Book which contain the root "self".
Word Group Self-Word Count
Character Virtues
self-control 1
self-discipline 2
self-respect 1
self-searching 1
unselfish 1
unselfishness 2
Total 8
Character Defects
self-centered 3
self-centeredness 3
self-deception 1
self-destruction 1
self-esteem 7 *
selfish 11
selfishly 1
selfishness 3
self-justification 1
self-pity 11
self-pitying 1
self-seeker 1
self-seeking 4
self-supporting 1
Total 49
Other
self-appraisal 3
self-confidence 2
self-confident 1
self-conscious 1
self-consciousness 1
self-evident 1
self-imposed 1
self-propulsion 1
self-reliance 3
self-revealing 1
self-sacrifice 2
self-sacrificing 2
self-sufficiency 1
self-will 5
Total 25
Prepositions
herself 2
himself 75
itself 7
myself 22
ourselves 1
self 5
thyself 2
yourself 25
Total 139
Overall Total 221
From above posted site. Good stuff
A.A. is NOT a selfish program
Tom
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Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,876
Good topic!
What always strikes me as odd is that there are so many phrases kicked around the rooms including aa is a selfish program that people say are not aa. Then where do they come from and why are people saying them?
I was at a meeting last week where a young girl was saying how she can't make 90 in 90, it set off a huge debate during the meeting. A guy (bb man) stated that 90 in 90 was not aa it came from treatment centers. Well this was a surprise to me as my first sponsor told me to do 90 in 90. I hear it all the time...almost every begginers meeting I attend. I also see newcomers here being advised to do 90 in 90. Is it aa or not? I don't know, I did it and it served its purpose for me. It can be confusing for the newcomer.
As for aa being a selfish program...semantics at its best.
What always strikes me as odd is that there are so many phrases kicked around the rooms including aa is a selfish program that people say are not aa. Then where do they come from and why are people saying them?
I was at a meeting last week where a young girl was saying how she can't make 90 in 90, it set off a huge debate during the meeting. A guy (bb man) stated that 90 in 90 was not aa it came from treatment centers. Well this was a surprise to me as my first sponsor told me to do 90 in 90. I hear it all the time...almost every begginers meeting I attend. I also see newcomers here being advised to do 90 in 90. Is it aa or not? I don't know, I did it and it served its purpose for me. It can be confusing for the newcomer.
As for aa being a selfish program...semantics at its best.
Guest
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Southern New Hampshire
Posts: 746
Where does this come from
Anybody interested in seeing what our basic text has to say on most of the nifty little one liners thrown around the fellowship should check out the following link: That Ain't in the Book
As far as semantics go, I respectfully disagree, words have tremendous power, to influence, help, or even harm.
As far as semantics go, I respectfully disagree, words have tremendous power, to influence, help, or even harm.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,876
Rob, I agree words do have tremendous power. My point was an argument can be made for both sides. My first sponsor told me that aa comes before everything else, she said aa not sobriety there is a difference. I too have heard in the rooms that aa is a selfish program...do I agree...no, but for some it can be difficult to weed out what is aa and what is not.
Follow Directions!
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Fredericksburg, Va.
Posts: 9,730
What always strikes me as odd is that there are so many phrases kicked around the rooms including aa is a selfish program that people say are not aa. Then where do they come from and why are people saying them?
The best example I can think of is "Take what you want and leave the rest"! This in the context of what is said at a meaning is darn good solid advice. I am sure there is a lot of stuff you have heard said at meetings that are not program, but are simply someones opinion or advice, sometimes it is good stuff that you or someone else may be able to use, or it may be junk, we need to decide whether we should take that with us or leave it.
The sad thing is people like that slogan and take it out of context and to fit thier own rejection of parts of the program apply it to the first 164 pages of the BB saying that the phrase "Take what you want and leave the rest." applies to the program! All one has to do is read how it works to see that is a bunch of hooie!:
Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program.
Some of us have tried to hold on to our old ideas and the result was nil until we let go absolutely.
Half measures availed us nothing. We stood at the turning point. we asked His protection and care with complete abandon.
A guy (bb man) stated that 90 in 90 was not aa it came from treatment centers.
Is it aa or not?
BTW Rob I totally concur!!!!
Follow Directions!
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Fredericksburg, Va.
Posts: 9,730
what is aa and what is not.
In the BB where step 11 is covered there is a paragraph that says:
If circumstances warrant, we ask our wives or friends to join us in morning meditation. If we belong to a religious denomination which requires a definite morning devotion, we attend to that also. If not members of religious bodies, we sometimes select and memorize a few set prayers which emphasize the principles we have been discussing. There are many helpful books also. Suggestions about these may be obtained from one's priest, minister, or rabbi. Be quick to see where religious people are right. Make use of what they offer.
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Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,876
Taz I appreciate your reply. I agree that in the last 70 years there is a wealth of information at our finger tips BUT the quote from the bb that states "Be quick to see where religious people are right. Make use of what they offer." makes me uncomfortable since aa is not a religious program...or is it? Sounds a bit contradictory. JMO
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Join Date: Apr 2006
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Posts: 2,384
Bugs,
Ninety in ninety came from treatment centers to Narcotics Anonymous to AA.
Many of the terms, phrases, and slogans that we here in contemporary AA cames to us from either treatment centers or NA. I was reading through NA's basic text and saw a lot of what we hear in AA meetings today.
Jim
Ninety in ninety came from treatment centers to Narcotics Anonymous to AA.
Many of the terms, phrases, and slogans that we here in contemporary AA cames to us from either treatment centers or NA. I was reading through NA's basic text and saw a lot of what we hear in AA meetings today.
Jim
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Join Date: Apr 2006
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Posts: 2,384
That's right
Originally Posted by bugsworth 
Taz I appreciate your reply. I agree that in the last 70 years there is a wealth of information at our finger tips BUT the quote from the bb that states "Be quick to see where religious people are right. Make use of what they offer." makes me uncomfortable since aa is not a religious program...or is it? Sounds a bit contradictory. JMO
Bugs,
Please don't use that phrase to kick off one your "AA is not religious" thread hi-jackings.
That phrase comes from the EleventhStep instructions. Bill is offering a suggestion that the INDIVIDUAL member may find useful in his or her PERSONAL spiritual life.
Jim
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