Recognising verbal abuse

[loobylue]

I hope no one minds me posting this, but it wasn't until recently when I read about verbal abuse and added that information to what I had read here that I finally got the last piece of the puzzle in place of what has been happening to me all these years, I am just starting to wrap my head around it, I had been lead to believe I was oversensitive, couldn't take a joke, a killjoy even, he seemed to like everyone else (down the pub anyway) so what was up with me? Anyway, these were just a few points to consider...

EVALUATING YOUR EXPERIENCE

He seems irritated or angry with you several times a week or more although you hadn't meant to upset him. You are surprised each time. (He says he's not mad when you ask him what he's mad about, or he tells you he's not mad when you ask him what he's mad about, or he tells you in some way that it's your fault).

When you feel hurt and try to discuss your upset feelings with him, you don't feel as if the issue has been fully resolved, so you don't feel happy or relieved, nor do you have a feeling that you've kissed and made up (he says 'you're just trying to start an argument!' or in some other way expresses his refusal to discuss the situation.

You frequently feel perplexed and frustrated by his responses because you can't get him to understand your intentions.

You are upset not so much about concrete issues - how much time to spend with each other, where to go on vacation etc - as about the communication in the relationship: what he thinks you said and what you heard him say.

He rarely, if ever, seems to want to share his thoughts or plans with you.

He seems to take the opposite view from you on almost anything you mention, and his view is not qualified by 'I think' or 'I believe' or 'I feel', as if your view wrong and his right.

You sometimes wonder if he perceives you as a separate person.

You can't recall saying to him 'cut it out' or 'stop it'.

He is either angry, or has no idea of what you are talking about when you try to discuss an issue with him.

[loobylue]

Also, a few feeling based observations which struck a chord with me too



Feeling temporarily thrown off balance and momentarily unable to right oneself.

Feeling lost, not knowing where to turn, searching aimlessly.

Being caught off guard.

Feeling disconnected, confused, disorientated.

Feeling off balance, like the rug has been pulled from under one's feet.

Receiving double messages but somehow unable, or fearful to ask for clarification (or asking for clarification and not getting it).

feeling generally bugged by the simple presence of a person.

To discover that one was mistaken in one's evaluation of where one stood or what it was about.

Feeling totally unprepared for a broken promise or unfulfilled expectation.

Experience the shattering of an important dream.

Where one assumed good will, ill will seems to prevail.

One feels pushed around, not in control of one's direction.

Unable to get off redundantly spinning circles of thoughts.

What seemed clear becomes muddled.

An uneasy weird feeling of emptiness.

A strong wish to get away, yet feeling unable to move, as if frozen.

One is befuddled, not able to attack the problem.

Feeling vaguely suspicious that something is wrong.

Feeling that one's world has become chaotic.

[sodetermined]

He seems irritated or angry with you several times a week or more although you hadn't meant to upset him. You are surprised each time. (He says he's not mad when you ask him what he's mad about, or he tells you he's not mad when you ask him what he's mad about, or he tells you in some way that it's your fault).

This is a big one at our house. He's upset, angry, and grouchy, but yet in his eyes, he is never mad. Drives me crazy.

[Pajarito]

Ditto that Soconfused. Mine would be obviously angry, grouchy, etc., but if I asked him why he was so mad- he wasn't mad. Twisty, warped- made me 2nd guess myself far too much. I'm done with that.

[isitme]

I've been doing a lot of research on verbal and emotional abuse lately. Seems I'm always trying to find the right "label" for my problems. But that's another subject entierly. LOL

I've come to think that mine and ABF's problems really seem to be more about the abuse than the drinking. I've read enough posts to believe that my ABF would be a dry drunk or one of the ones who doesn't get nicer when he gets sober. I have really started to think his bigges problem is with manipulation and emotional abuse more than with the alcohol..even though the totally seem to go hand in hand.

I agree with almost every point made in those two posts.. yet I find myself waiting around for some more.

[isitme]

This is really long, so I'll only post the link. However it pretty much describes the covert abuse style of my ABF to a T. He's definately the type to makes me look like the crazy, mad, yelling lunatic while he stays calm & controlled, yet he's manipulating the S**T out of me at the same time. Turning words around, bringing up the past and making me feel miserable with out directly making it seem that way. It's truley mind boggling...

Physical & Emotional Abuse Forum: Worth Reading and re-posting... - DailyStrength

and this one too.
Physical & Emotional Abuse Forum: Some traits of emotional abusers... - DailyStrength

[bookwyrm]

Wow, thanks for those two links isitme! And I thought I was going crazy....

[lizw]

A few months ago I was at a fast food place with a newly sober alcoholic, who also has a long history of relapsing.

Off the top of my head I don't recall what we were talking about but what ever it was caused her to get a little nasty and start to make horrible personal comments about me.

We'd finished our food so I just stood up and said let's go.
As we walked up the street I rubbed her back and said something nice to her.
I even gave her a ride home too.

It wasn't till later on that I realised I had behaved like that to her verbal abuse automatically. I.e. I felt uncomfortable, like I was being attacked so terminated the conversation and got on with my own day.

The place I have learnt to do this stuff is in Al Anon. Pre Al Anon, I would have attacked her back and then we would have had a real argument. I doubt we would have left the fast food place together to say the least!

While I think it is good to know 'what is what' and to be able to label behavior, for me it is just important to also know how to deal with it and not take it personally.

[isitme]

Originally Posted by lizw

While I think it is good to know 'what is what' and to be able to label behavior, for me it is just important to also know how to deal with it and not take it personally.

I totally agree! I hate that I look for lables. I think i do it to try to find out how I can deal with it. But the more I know the more I realize I can't deal with it, and I shouldn't have to deal with it if I don't feel comfortable doing so.

I'm not saying your actions are inappropriate at all.. in fact I applaud them. I just don't think i can do it. I don't think I'm strong enough anymore. If feel so outside of myself and as I contiune to try to work on me I think the only way back to myself is a one way ticket out of this maddness. Even though I think my traits have been scrutinized (sp?) and amplified I've always been a pretty sensitive person, I wouldn't say weak, but sensitive. And even if I see the crap for what it is, it still hurts that someone I love would choose to treat me that way. I don't think it's something I would ever be able to ignore.

[lizw]

Just to be clear on this, this person wasn't my partner but just a close friend.

I haven't lived with alcoholism, active or otherwise for 2 years. And as far as I am concerned there is only enough room in my life for one crazy person, and that is me. I will never, ever, God willing live with a person who thinks it is okay to abuse me, ever again.

And despite not being in a relationship with an alcoholic, I still attend Al Anon and probably will to the day I die. I've a lifetime of recovering to do.

:atv

[DesertEyes]

wow, wonderful information. Thanx for all the links and the honesty. You gusy think I should make this a sticky?

Mike

[Chrysalis123]

I would like this to be sticky. Thanks Mike

[denny57]

I no longer react to the verbal abusers in my life, either. I also don't keep them in my life - it's way too short.

[Ago]

I just walked away from a verbal abuser a few days ago....what a confusing few years....

There seems to be a lot more about men being the abuser however my experience has been it goes both ways, and as a man being involved with a surreptitious emotional abuser...it's very very confusing...it made me doubt my own reality...

My biggest "block" has been trying to convince...or make this person realize that their actions had an impact on me...as well as trying to convince people around me that this was in fact taking place, that's where the insanity lay for me (when the truth is they all already knew and had been recommending I leave for the last two years, at this point they are disgusted with me for repeatedly going back, and have informed me if I do so again, they will subject me to ridicule <in a supportive way>).

What was recommended to me, was just walk away, let it go...kind of like...well, if I was hanging out in the slums at 2AM, eventually I would get beaten up and robbed, the question is not so much what they did "to me" but what was I doing in a dangerous area where I KNEW if I hung out, I would get hurt. None of her behavior was a surprise, it had happened repeatedly, my insanity was going back and "expecting different results"

some quotes I liked were and gave me "ah-ha" moments were:

"One of the more subtle but effective ways an abuser can "wind" his partner up is by invalidating/rejecting/showing no compassion for the feelings of his partner - especially in conjunction with a deliberate act of malice that was designed to upset or hurt the partner. He will claim the act was either "accidental" or intended to help the partner. He will try to tell his partner that it is NOT OK to feel angry or hurt or upset by his actions - or that if she DOES feel those things, her "feelings are her own" - that he has no responsibility towards repairing any emotional damage he may have caused. As part of this tactic he may pay lip-service to personal responsibility by saying he "takes responsibility" for his actions, but then make no offer to do anything about the resulting emotional pain, or say that there is nothing he can do to repair the damage or make restitution. If she tries to get him to do anything to make restitution he will use the word "blame" as if it is a dirty word, and accuse her of trying to lay "blame" on him for his actions. This is the functional equivalent of someone using a board to "fan" you and when he "accidentally" hits you over the head, telling you that he was just trying to HELP and that if you feel PAIN, well, your feelings are your own, and he can't be responsible for YOUR feelings, and there is nothing HE can do about it now... Non-abusers who genuinely ACCIDENTALLY hurt a loved one's feelings, do not refuse to nurture those feelings - they help repair the emotional damage, and they don't repeatedly make the same "mistakes" over and over with their partners.


Emotional abusers have huge double standards. What is ok for them, is NOT ok for their partners. I.e. THEY are allowed to get angry - their partners are not.


If caught in a lie or exposed in a situation where he can't immediately manipulate his partner into taking the rap, he may try to go for the sympathy ploy, in an attempt deflect the situation away from his bad behavior.
or:
-to bring up stories of childhood/parental abuse (watch these, they are the same old stories each time, and if you listen closely, you may see that his behaviors closely match those childhood abuse patterns...)
-to bring up troubles and things bothering him at work
-to bring up his hurt and "pain" over something YOU did ages ago, and have long-since paid for.

Emotional abusers hate apologizing - and if they DO apologize, they will only do the same thing again. They know this, and will even try to make it seem like any expectation of an apology is really an attempt to "blame" them. (Again, "blame" being that dirty word). For example, "You just want me to say I'm sorry and promise I'll never do it again, so that when I screw up again, you can point a finger and blame me and get angry with me and say, "See? You did it again and you promised you wouldn't!"" This is called "projection" - abusers do it all the time. They project THEIR issues onto their partner, and try to make it their partner's problem. They make it sound like the partner's is somehow wrong or attempting to set them up for "blame", for wanting some sign of compassion and remorse, and an indication of willingness to work on the behavior problem.

If you find that you are having to explain the basics of respect and courtesy to a partner - if you are finding that he just DOESN'T SEEM TO GET IT, when you try to explain why his behavior or actions were disrespectful - run far and run fast. People who are capable of maintaining and contributing to a loving, supportive, healthy relationship, DON'T need to constantly have the concepts of respect, compassion, and consideration explained to them.

Anyway, for me, the best thing I can do is walk away, let go, not obsess, and get some time behind me, work on myself for awhile (do a fourth step around this) and hope I don't have to repeat this lesson again.

Have a great day and stay strong

[espresso]

Just like to say a big THANK YOU to everyone who has posted here. Really interesting reading.

[DesertEyes]

done stickied in the section "About Abuse"

Mike

[YellowRed]

Great thread. Took me years to finally see I was living with emotional abuse. It was always my fault. I seemed to be blamed for everything even though I couldn't see what I'd done. Seething, bubbling under the surface... I felt like he was a volcano ready to erupt but apparently he was 'never angry'. Still denies so many of the things he said. Its like we were using the same words but speaking completely different languages. At least I just don't have to subject myself to it any more.

[loobylue]

I think the worst thing for me was trying so heartbreakingly hard to try to make him happy, and being so disappointed when I couldn't, I was going to ridiculous extremes and making life so hard for me just to get him to smile, only to be met with flatness, I just couldn't see what was wrong with me. I even remember thinking to myself that if I could just be really perfect to him for a whole year and not say anything to him everything would be different and he wouldn't need to drink to get away from me, good grief!

The relief of knowing that actually, I am a good person and he is the one with the issues THAT I DON'T HAVE TO FIX, AND I CAN'T FIX has changed everything, I can see everything he throws at me for what it is and it has made the decision to leave seem so easy now. 20 years I put up with that, but not one day more. I can't believe how strong I feel.

[Ago]

Originally Posted by loobylue

I think the worst thing for me was trying so heartbreakingly hard to try to make him happy, and being so disappointed when I couldn't, I was going to ridiculous extremes and making life so hard for me just to get him to smile, only to be met with flatness, I just couldn't see what was wrong with me. I even remember thinking to myself that if I could just be really perfect to him for a whole year and not say anything to him everything would be different and he wouldn't need to drink to get away from me, good grief!

The relief of knowing that actually, I am a good person and he is the one with the issues THAT I DON'T HAVE TO FIX, AND I CAN'T FIX has changed everything, I can see everything he throws at me for what it is and it has made the decision to leave seem so easy now. 20 years I put up with that, but not one day more. I can't believe how strong I feel.

Yeah...that's a "lifelong" trap I have found myself repeating, "If only I try harder, they will love me" My alcoholic mother, my alcoholic father, many of my relationships....it's crazy making because no matter what I do, these people truly don't "see" me, or who I am or the impact their actions have....

I broke up with my "ex" a few days ago, and just got the first "exit interview" email an hour or so ago, where she writes everything I said is a Lie, I need professional help, I don't realize everything she has done for me, and "how sick I am", and "she has nothing but pity for me"

The funny thing is I have a large support group of healthy people with long term sobriety who have telling me to get away from her for well over a year, and just rolling their eyes at me when I went back, they all tell me how great I am, I have integrity, how much they love me, it goes on and on, this includes my "ex" Girlfriends for the last 20 years, who flat out state how much they love me, and how she doesn't deserve me, and how "she just isn't a nice person".

The scary thing?

On some level I believe her.

I believe all the horrible things she says about me, everyone around me is saying NO NO NO it's NOT true, walk away and feel empowered!!!

I'm still stuck in bargaining, denial, if only I had tried harder...etc.

I can't WAIT for this to be a thing of the past.

God I hope I walk around the "pothole" next time it appears rather then fall in, I'm climbing out of this one, but I am COVERED in "mud" and am doing so kicking and screaming.

Of all the addictions I have ever kicked, this one has been the toughest.

[Berry1976]

Originally Posted by Soconfused11

This is a big one at our house. He's upset, angry, and grouchy, but yet in his eyes, he is never mad. Drives me crazy.

OMG and yes I was the one that was always mad...
And I wanted to argue...
I always got "whatever" when I confronted him on anything... Drove me to the walls...

[Ago]

/sigh

I dragged my "A" kicking and screaming to alanon and AA meetings and therapy, introduced her to women (which she got really angry at me for), made sure she got numbers, in short, "Co'd" her, finally couldn't deal with her emotional pushme/pullyou and surreptitious emotional manipulation and abuse any more, broke up with her, now she is telling anyone who will listen about how I "abused" her, I kept her in isolation (she didn't have one friend when we met and hadn't for years) and her drinking was due to me and the abusive relationship.

Wouldn't be a problem except she is doing this with the women I introduced her to, my friends, and going to my groups (an hour out of her way) to do it, I've asked her to please not come to the meetings where I have commitments, she lives in a City an hour away, there are plenty of meetings there, but she has informed me she is coming for her "sobriety" although coming to those meetings when we were together was a lot less important.

Gaaaaa

Way to shoot myself in the foot

I can't even begin to convey how violated and afraid this makes me, these people are my support group, i know my actual "support group" won't believe her...but this is horrific.

detach detach detach

follows the MO though


Like physical abusers, emotional abusers will often stalk their former partners. The stalker's objective is often to control them through cultivating fear rather than making direct or specific threats, or confronting them.

This is a subtle form of terrorism, because abuse victims are often very emotionally afraid of their abusers once they wake up. They are, in effect, pissing on their boundaries (something abusers have no respect for) and trying to make them their own.

Ex-partners of abusers will often express fear of their abuser, and will have no desire to be anywhere near the abuser. On the other hand, the abuser may try to appear as if he is calm, rational, and still supportive of his ex-partner, despite the fact that he will also express the opinion that he believes she is quite unstable.

They will make statements such as saying that they "bears their "ex" no ill-will", etc., but then will show no respect for their boundaries or their requests for him to stay away from them. The abuser will still inquire with friends as to how the ex is doing, implying that their inquiry is because they cares about the ex - they do care - about retaining those last vestiges of control, even after the breakup.

What they really wants to know is if the ex is suffering or doing badly, because that feeds their sick ego. They feel best when they put other people in as much pain as they are in.

thank you for letting me vent

[AmpHusky]

I didn't like my XAGF tell all her other enablers, and Family that I hit her and abused her. I feel where you are coming from AGO. I talked to her family and they already knew the A was the one lying. She had the nerve to stick her new guy on the phone with me to tell me, not to be hitting her. I told him he was getting in to a bad situation.

Thanks for your venting.

[Ago]

Originally Posted by AmpHusky

I didn't like my XAGF tell all her other enablers, and Family that I hit her and abused her. I feel where you are coming from AGO. I talked to her family and they already knew the A was the one lying. She had the nerve to stick her new guy on the phone with me to tell me, not to be hitting her. I told him he was getting in to a bad situation.

Thanks for your venting.

Thank You

Well, even she would never suggest I would raise my hand to her, much less even really raise my voice much, there are too many people who have known me my whole life that wouldn't buy that "product", there are VERY few people that have ever seen me really lose my temper, that includes Exes, friends etc. and that includes seeing me in some VERY bad situations, drinking and Sober.

I had the stupidity to send her that "emotional abuse" article and asked her if she recognized the behaviors, because when I read it I had this incredible sense of Deja Vu' and and a number of the "scenarios" were literally verbatim, I had this HUGE ah-ha when I read it, so now she is doing "damage control" I guess.

Anyway, just got off the phone with one of my exes I've known for over 15 years, who has been incredibly supportive and saying don't believe a word this woman says, she dated me for 6-7 years and knows what I look like in relationship, knows my other ex GF's, knows I'm very close to all my ex-GF's, and keeps reminding me to think of the scene in LOTR where Eowyn says to Grima' Wormtongue, "Your words are POISON!" and runs away, and ecourages me strongly to do the same (run away and stop engaging)...I actually find visualizing that helpful, hee hee

[loobylue]

Oh Ago, I do feel for you still going through the torment of this.

I think I must have come so far because, for the first time in years, the last thing on my mind was sending 'the list' of his faults to show him and prove to him what he is, for a start the thought of it is now too exhausting to contemplate but I no longer see it as my place to point this out to him.

I saw it as a list for me to take note of and me to deal with, the proof that I am not a failure and applying what it said as a step to understanding how I got to be in the situation I am in. Ultimately I want to get my self confidence back, I won't achieve this if I waste any more time fruitlessly trying to change him first.

[Ago]

Thank You for your reply

I guess what I'm trying to wrap my mind around is "She didn't do anything "to" me" since I went back over and over, and the concept of "whatever happens beyond the tip of my nose is none of my business".

I had created this...I don't know, make believe world over years of sobriety, where I only allowed people I knew and trusted with long term sobriety and recovery to get "near" me, I started my own company, only hired sober people, dated a woman with long term sobriety, all my friends had long term sobriety, in short I lived in a sort of isolated world where people meant what they said, said what they meant, and told the truth.

I moved a few years ago to a tiny little isolated community with minimal AA, didn't attend meetings, and only had contact with, worked with, and lived on the same property as my family, 3 full blown alcoholics, and a junkie.

I went CRAZY trying to communicate with these people, and only now am beginning to understand what that meant (going crazy). I know I felt crazy as nothing they said matched their actions, but I think that part that made me nuts was trying to get them to "see" me, to see the impact of their actions, to get them to see my point of view.

I literally lost the tools to deal with sick people, and when I got involved with them I was completely at a loss and kept expecting my family to have accountability and integrity and "mean what they say", and "say what they mean"

Anyway, that's the state of mind I was in when I started dating this woman, and quite frankly I found a relationship that exactly duplicated my situation.

My craziness now, and in the past in this relationship has been to try to get this woman to see my point of view, the impact of her actions, and ultimately to get "validation" however she would always act as if I was trying to "blame" her for something, and say "your feelings are your own" and "I can't help you" then start sandbagging me about all my character defects.

What was explained to me, was, state my truth, then if the person can't see my point of view, or the impact of their actions, just walk away, I should be sufficient unto myself, but the truth is, my reality has been so skewed by living with my family and dating this person for the last few years, I'm at the point where I don't have "inner validation" any more, I don't trust my inner reality since it hasn't matched my outside reality so I now have been seeking it with "outside stuff", mainly people. I am so spun after the last few years I literally doubt my own reality, have no "inner compass" and no center.

I have sat and just been pointing the finger at "everyone else" and been miserable. Over the last 7-8 months there have been a series of breakthroughs, but this break up just brought everything crashing to the surface, the family stuff, abandonment issues, my Codie tendencies, everything. I have been crawling out my skin, and the truth is, I'm not "heartbroken" or anything about the breakup (I left her) but I am nearly insane that she "see my point of view"...so now I let go.

I rode my motorcycle the equivalent of SF to LA yesterday, started at 1:30 and was still riding 10 hours later when I had another breakthrough.

She did the best she could, and so did I.

I don't need her to see my point of view, and truthfully I forgive her, I forgive her everything. I forgive me. As Chuck C put it referring to character defects, "we don't do things because we want to, we do them because we have to"

Just let go, walk away, know she is like a dangerous drug for me, but in her, as with Alcohol, Morphine, Heroin etc, the danger is not in the substance as it were, but the "abuse" of the substance. I can't safely use drugs or alcohol, not because they are "bad" as it were, but because of my reaction to them, and that's how I choose to look at my relationship with this woman. She's not "bad" per se she was abused BADLY as a child and is still traumatized by that. She is what she is. God Bless her. (God bless her far away, but God Bless her)

So begins recovery now, I moved away from my family, broke up with this woman, and have been surrounding myself with program people, immersing myself in meetings, got a new sponsor (last one moved to Mexico), and am starting the steps around all of this.

The thing I need to realize is I will NEVER get this person to see my point of view, and be OK with that. After 1.5 years of trying...it was like going to dry well...I was reading through some old emails from the last few break ups with her, and any of them could have been written this week...I mean verbatim.

I was also reading the things I wrote, and I'm OK with them, they weren't out of line, they were clear, they were "I" messages, they were asking for clarification.

Anyhow, the truth is this is all new to me, these are things I haven't had to deal with in Sobriety before, and I am really looking forward to the healing the steps will bring around this, I truly wasn't aware I still had "Family of Origin" issues, after years of work, I thought I had healed, but the truth is I am beginning to think is I dealt with the more disturbing things then swept the rest under the rug and learned how to deal with my family without "stirring my pot".

Anyway, back to the job hunt, have a great day everyone, be happy, be strong, praise the Lord and pass the ammunition.