Ago

/sigh

I dragged my "A" kicking and screaming to alanon and AA meetings and therapy, introduced her to women (which she got really angry at me for), made sure she got numbers, in short, "Co'd" her, finally couldn't deal with her emotional pushme/pullyou and surreptitious emotional manipulation and abuse any more, broke up with her, now she is telling anyone who will listen about how I "abused" her, I kept her in isolation (she didn't have one friend when we met and hadn't for years) and her drinking was due to me and the abusive relationship.

Wouldn't be a problem except she is doing this with the women I introduced her to, my friends, and going to my groups (an hour out of her way) to do it, I've asked her to please not come to the meetings where I have commitments, she lives in a City an hour away, there are plenty of meetings there, but she has informed me she is coming for her "sobriety" although coming to those meetings when we were together was a lot less important.

Gaaaaa

Way to shoot myself in the foot

I can't even begin to convey how violated and afraid this makes me, these people are my support group, i know my actual "support group" won't believe her...but this is horrific.

detach detach detach

follows the MO though


Like physical abusers, emotional abusers will often stalk their former partners. The stalker's objective is often to control them through cultivating fear rather than making direct or specific threats, or confronting them.

This is a subtle form of terrorism, because abuse victims are often very emotionally afraid of their abusers once they wake up. They are, in effect, pissing on their boundaries (something abusers have no respect for) and trying to make them their own.

Ex-partners of abusers will often express fear of their abuser, and will have no desire to be anywhere near the abuser. On the other hand, the abuser may try to appear as if he is calm, rational, and still supportive of his ex-partner, despite the fact that he will also express the opinion that he believes she is quite unstable.

They will make statements such as saying that they "bears their "ex" no ill-will", etc., but then will show no respect for their boundaries or their requests for him to stay away from them. The abuser will still inquire with friends as to how the ex is doing, implying that their inquiry is because they cares about the ex - they do care - about retaining those last vestiges of control, even after the breakup.

What they really wants to know is if the ex is suffering or doing badly, because that feeds their sick ego. They feel best when they put other people in as much pain as they are in.

thank you for letting me vent

AmpHusky

I didn't like my XAGF tell all her other enablers, and Family that I hit her and abused her. I feel where you are coming from AGO. I talked to her family and they already knew the A was the one lying. She had the nerve to stick her new guy on the phone with me to tell me, not to be hitting her. I told him he was getting in to a bad situation.

Thanks for your venting.

Ago

Thank You

Well, even she would never suggest I would raise my hand to her, much less even really raise my voice much, there are too many people who have known me my whole life that wouldn't buy that "product", there are VERY few people that have ever seen me really lose my temper, that includes Exes, friends etc. and that includes seeing me in some VERY bad situations, drinking and Sober.

I had the stupidity to send her that "emotional abuse" article and asked her if she recognized the behaviors, because when I read it I had this incredible sense of Deja Vu' and and a number of the "scenarios" were literally verbatim, I had this HUGE ah-ha when I read it, so now she is doing "damage control" I guess.

Anyway, just got off the phone with one of my exes I've known for over 15 years, who has been incredibly supportive and saying don't believe a word this woman says, she dated me for 6-7 years and knows what I look like in relationship, knows my other ex GF's, knows I'm very close to all my ex-GF's, and keeps reminding me to think of the scene in LOTR where Eowyn says to Grima' Wormtongue, "Your words are POISON!" and runs away, and ecourages me strongly to do the same (run away and stop engaging)...I actually find visualizing that helpful, hee hee

loobylue

Oh Ago, I do feel for you still going through the torment of this.

I think I must have come so far because, for the first time in years, the last thing on my mind was sending 'the list' of his faults to show him and prove to him what he is, for a start the thought of it is now too exhausting to contemplate but I no longer see it as my place to point this out to him.

I saw it as a list for me to take note of and me to deal with, the proof that I am not a failure and applying what it said as a step to understanding how I got to be in the situation I am in. Ultimately I want to get my self confidence back, I won't achieve this if I waste any more time fruitlessly trying to change him first.

Ago

Thank You for your reply

I guess what I'm trying to wrap my mind around is "She didn't do anything "to" me" since I went back over and over, and the concept of "whatever happens beyond the tip of my nose is none of my business".

I had created this...I don't know, make believe world over years of sobriety, where I only allowed people I knew and trusted with long term sobriety and recovery to get "near" me, I started my own company, only hired sober people, dated a woman with long term sobriety, all my friends had long term sobriety, in short I lived in a sort of isolated world where people meant what they said, said what they meant, and told the truth.

I moved a few years ago to a tiny little isolated community with minimal AA, didn't attend meetings, and only had contact with, worked with, and lived on the same property as my family, 3 full blown alcoholics, and a junkie.

I went CRAZY trying to communicate with these people, and only now am beginning to understand what that meant (going crazy). I know I felt crazy as nothing they said matched their actions, but I think that part that made me nuts was trying to get them to "see" me, to see the impact of their actions, to get them to see my point of view.

I literally lost the tools to deal with sick people, and when I got involved with them I was completely at a loss and kept expecting my family to have accountability and integrity and "mean what they say", and "say what they mean"

Anyway, that's the state of mind I was in when I started dating this woman, and quite frankly I found a relationship that exactly duplicated my situation.

My craziness now, and in the past in this relationship has been to try to get this woman to see my point of view, the impact of her actions, and ultimately to get "validation" however she would always act as if I was trying to "blame" her for something, and say "your feelings are your own" and "I can't help you" then start sandbagging me about all my character defects.

What was explained to me, was, state my truth, then if the person can't see my point of view, or the impact of their actions, just walk away, I should be sufficient unto myself, but the truth is, my reality has been so skewed by living with my family and dating this person for the last few years, I'm at the point where I don't have "inner validation" any more, I don't trust my inner reality since it hasn't matched my outside reality so I now have been seeking it with "outside stuff", mainly people. I am so spun after the last few years I literally doubt my own reality, have no "inner compass" and no center.

I have sat and just been pointing the finger at "everyone else" and been miserable. Over the last 7-8 months there have been a series of breakthroughs, but this break up just brought everything crashing to the surface, the family stuff, abandonment issues, my Codie tendencies, everything. I have been crawling out my skin, and the truth is, I'm not "heartbroken" or anything about the breakup (I left her) but I am nearly insane that she "see my point of view"...so now I let go.

I rode my motorcycle the equivalent of SF to LA yesterday, started at 1:30 and was still riding 10 hours later when I had another breakthrough.

She did the best she could, and so did I.

I don't need her to see my point of view, and truthfully I forgive her, I forgive her everything. I forgive me. As Chuck C put it referring to character defects, "we don't do things because we want to, we do them because we have to"

Just let go, walk away, know she is like a dangerous drug for me, but in her, as with Alcohol, Morphine, Heroin etc, the danger is not in the substance as it were, but the "abuse" of the substance. I can't safely use drugs or alcohol, not because they are "bad" as it were, but because of my reaction to them, and that's how I choose to look at my relationship with this woman. She's not "bad" per se she was abused BADLY as a child and is still traumatized by that. She is what she is. God Bless her. (God bless her far away, but God Bless her)

So begins recovery now, I moved away from my family, broke up with this woman, and have been surrounding myself with program people, immersing myself in meetings, got a new sponsor (last one moved to Mexico), and am starting the steps around all of this.

The thing I need to realize is I will NEVER get this person to see my point of view, and be OK with that. After 1.5 years of trying...it was like going to dry well...I was reading through some old emails from the last few break ups with her, and any of them could have been written this week...I mean verbatim.

I was also reading the things I wrote, and I'm OK with them, they weren't out of line, they were clear, they were "I" messages, they were asking for clarification.

Anyhow, the truth is this is all new to me, these are things I haven't had to deal with in Sobriety before, and I am really looking forward to the healing the steps will bring around this, I truly wasn't aware I still had "Family of Origin" issues, after years of work, I thought I had healed, but the truth is I am beginning to think is I dealt with the more disturbing things then swept the rest under the rug and learned how to deal with my family without "stirring my pot".

Anyway, back to the job hunt, have a great day everyone, be happy, be strong, praise the Lord and pass the ammunition.

Ago

I was talking to a friend last night, I have known for many years, he reminded me of the concept of the "double bind"...funny I used to teach that to my sponsees but hadn't thought of it in years, anyhow, he was describing growing up with his mother, who said "I love you" then would beat him and abandon him....gets pretty confusing in relationships like that. Parents have a HUGE impact on our lives, and being raised in a double bind relationship by my own mother, I found I went and recreated it in my relationship.

Anyhow, that concept has been kind of rattling around my head all day, and the thing is, If I can remember that I have been trapped in a double bind for the last few years with my XAGF and Family, I don't spend so much time going over and over and over what happened (obsess much? oh a little) and it just frees me up to move on and live my own life.

Practicing alcoholics and products of abusive childhoods that have never looked at themselves don't make sense, they can't, so if I can switch from "look at what they did to me" to "my God, that poor person is really very very ill" it helps me to detach to work on my own issues.

I initially got sober when I was pretty young, and when someone in my family or in a relationship would do something particularly idiotic I would hear this Beavis and Butthead voice in my head saying "you are stupid" and I would be able to smile at the situation and remain detached, but somewhere along the line I lost the ability to detach and am slowly picking up the tools to do so. I know that it wasn't the most mature way to deal with the situation but it really and truly worked, I was always smiling and people just thought I was some sort of jolly idiot, which I will take any day to being wrapped up in knots obsessing about someone else's behavior.

Anyhow....The double bind...as long as I can remember that concept I can remain on my side of the street and not get stuck in it. I can say to myself, "Oh look, here comes the double bind Buh Bye"

The next time someone says "I love you" then punches me and runs away, I gotta say I'm GONE, I can't do this any more, this last one nearly killed me.

KMMK

If you find that you are having to explain the basics of respect and courtesy to a partner - if you are finding that he just DOESN'T SEEM TO GET IT, when you try to explain why his behavior or actions were disrespectful - run far and run fast. People who are capable of maintaining and contributing to a loving, supportive, healthy relationship, DON'T need to constantly have the concepts of respect, compassion, and consideration explained to them.[/B] [/I]

Thanks for this..
i have found in the past i used to try and try to make the abusers in my life "get it"...but they never did and they never do!
its as if they have a missing sensitivity chip..
it is who they are!
yes RUN FAR AND FAST.
my mistake was i didnt..but should have!

Pelican

KMMK,

Welcome! Some good advise in this thread, but I wanted to gently point out that this thread is almost one year old. Some of the original posters have stopped posting.

Don't be too hard on yourself for not running sooner and farther. We all have to learn at our own pace. Take the lessons you have learned and apply them to your today. Stay here in today, the past is over and the future will take care of itself.

Don't borrow from tomorrow.

Linkmeister

Just been through yet another episode of this with ABF prior to a binge. I went to show him some pictures I had taken of our dog and a bees nest we had just knocked down. He was in the middle of something going on with his computer and instead of saying "I'll look at them later", he barked right back at me to leave him alone, I was annoying him, I was always in his face, etc, etc, etc.

I got up and walked out of the room and after a rather tense hour or so, got an apology after he told me yet again, that there are things I do that really annoy him but it wasn't "me he was upset at. Go figure that one.

The more I read this article, the more I see ABF and realize that the alcoholism for him is not the whole equation.

This really hit me square in the head as I see ABF here so clearly and this only gets worse when he drinks.

Another favourite of his is chiding me for not finding work yet, in spite of my best efforts looking - then on the other hand, telling me he will "take care" of me.

After many ugly confrontations, I have learned to walk away from all of this when it starts. I will not engage him no encourage him and if he does start in on it, I will walk away - go for a walk, leave the room or just tune him out totally. It was hard at first, but it does work and I am a lot less stressed for doing this.

tallulah

I may not be too popular with this view..

I think sometimes alcohol and alcoholism can be too easily 'blamed' for behaviour. That's not to say just for the alcoholic and/or abuser.. but also the other person in that relationship.

I had a relationship with an alcoholic. For most of that time he was dry. For most of that time he was abusive.. not all the time, after all you have to have the lovey dovey honeymoon period in the cycle.. but nevertheless he was abusive. It was mostly emotional/mental/verbal but there were times it was violent.

He used his alcoholism as an excuse, he used his failed marraige and what allegedly happened in it as an excuse, he used the breakdown of that marriage as an excuse.. and you know what, so did I. There is NO excuse.

queenie88

i actually BECAME the crazy, mad yelling lunatic while he was STILL calm and controlled yet manipulating as h**l. INFURIATING!!!

TakingTime

Thanks for these links. I got a lot out of it. I have struggled to recognise the manipulation and verbal abuse because, as described in the article, XABF is SO skilled at using words to twist things, is very 'emotionally literate' (yet can never say 'I feel' or 'I think', instead presents everything he says as 'the truth') and to most people, appears a very nice, calm, kind and helpful person. He certainly HAS that side to him, but unfortunately it's overshadowed by a lot of the characteristics described here - particularly 'humorous' put-downs which even my friends noticed. It has really shredded my self-esteem, and now that we've split up I already feel better about myself, although it'll take a while..

kv816

Wow, awesome post. I needed to hear this all tonight. I had a lot of realizations today and many seemed so confusing to me. I'm almost wondering, if after reading this, if I myself may not have been a little verbally and/or emotionally abusive as well (though I think a lot of my actions were based on defending myself, my kids, my job, etc). Still NO EXCUSE. But reading all of this helped me a lot and gives me another part of me that I need to work on (as if I didn't have enough already).

worthyoflove

I can totally relate to the double bind. My friend would say she was coming over and never show up. She accused me of being a b&*^ because she couldn't say no. I ended the friendship due to the lack of respect for my time and she went and told all our friends that I was mean. She would make fun of me and tell me bad things about myself. I have NEVER said anything mean or negative about her. She doesn't know how to treat other people. Her neighbor won't speak to her because she was bad talking her. I have just walked away from this friendship and will never go back. It's about self-respect. She sees me as being arrogant because I won't put up with abuse. I will always love her and wish her well, but I choose not to allow her in my life. You have to be careful who you let in your heart. That is one lesson that I have learned the hard way, but well worth it.

brundle

feeling generally bugged by the simple presence of a person

I identify with almost all of the statements. This one really hits home because I feel guilty about this one. I really don't like being around my AH. I'm glad it's an acctual symptom of all this. I'm always looking for ways to stay away from him. Lots of times it's due to just not wanting to hear all the yucky stuff that comes out of his mouth!

This was a great post; I needed to be reminded of all of this with what I've been going through!

Deb42

Thank God I found this site. .. these two quotes below resinated with me.
I thought it was me, the first quote below. . .when the guy can't or
doesn't ever say (I feel, or I think) what kind of a person is this?
emtionally unavailable? sick? abusive? (besides the alcohol of course)
I never realized after 11 months of dating this guy who drinks too much
when he does drink . until I read this he has never said "I think or I feel"
what kind of human being is this? . . . .
Also after 11 months 2nd quote below, I have been the same exact
thing, I have been breaking it off frequently and having to explain
how to be considerate and respectful. .. . .
Also there's something else I read on here that said that Quote "when you
try to ask him a question or talk to him when he's drinking, he says
you're trying to start an argument" . . I've been putting up with this
for 11 months also . . .:wtf2
Sorry this might be long but HE doesn't get it and now (I) don't get it.

He'll say something really hurtful or stupid when he drinks and then
(next day says that I remind him of his X )that I was egging him on
or looking to start an argument. . .like WHAT? . .I'm just looking for
"clarity". He shuts down , rolls over, tells me "STOP, SHUT UP, or the other nite, he said "SHUT UP and ROLL over , go to bed"
stop asking questions, ENOUGH", he tells me "I don't want to HEAR it,
I don't want to talk about it, I don't want to hear about that, I didn't
need to hear that, STOP, you're repeating yourself". I ask him why
don't you ever tell me you love me, he says "becuase that means
that I will have to move in and/or marry you, I'm like WHAT?
but he says next day, he was just joking, but he said it another
time when he was drinking. He says I double talk and half the time
he doesn't listen to my voice messages becuase he says "why should
I"? . . you repeat yourself in person anyway, so why should I listen
to them? . .like :wtf2
sorryto go into detail here but I told him DON"T wake me up in the middle of the nite
to have s*x .(only when he drinks) .I said I have a hard time getting to sleep as it is and
he keeps doing it. I feel like it's a form of date rape. .he wont
respect my wishes.. .When I ask him something when he drinks
and he shuts down, next day I'll break it off and tell him I can't
deal with this crap, he won't call for days and then call and
say he's sorry or some dumb excuse and I'll ask why didn't
you call and he'll say "well, I didn't want to ARGUE"!!!!!!!!! Why is
asking questions considered "starting an argument or egging him on?

I don't understand . . . I don't start arguments, I used to be
a counselor , I have very good communication skills, I don't
even know what it means to start an argument!
When I ask him quesitons,(when he's drinking) 5 times in the last
2 weeks he has gotten up and got dressed ready to go home?
(he doesn't live with me, he has his own place)
Like I think he can't deal with reality! But what he says
that I'm the sweetest person he know and the LAST person
he wants to hurt, but I'm repeatedly getting "shut out emotionally
from him" he runs, tells me STOP, or shut up...
I broke it off due to reading on this support forum becuase he
never asks me what I think or how I feel and he doesn't
ever say "I think or I feel" . . . so I'm wasting my time ..
no investment, no relationship, but he's the politest guy
in the world when he's sober (most of the time) but
when he gets mad when he drinks and says ALL the above
the next day, it's all MY fault. . .then he contradicts himself
and GET THIS ? for months he has told me "dont listen to me
when I drink, you have to take me with a grain of salt, take
it in stride" . .it's the ALCOHOL talking NOT me, he says
it's all HIM , then other times he says it's ME"
HElp? . .. I don't want to take him back a 10th time .
What kind of person am I describing? . . ... ..
one more thing . . this really hurt . . . a couple weeks ago, his mom
called while he was at my house and she was upset and crying
and before he hung up, he told her "I love you" , i said " you tell
your mother you love her? never heard that before" . .do you do
that often? . .he said "occasionally when I see someone ABUSING
her, but he abused me verbally (I think) and he never tells me
he loves me?
HELP, am I an instigator? am I asking too many questions?
Is this guy wacko?
thanks for listening, any input would be helpful
what kind of a person am I dealing with? .. .I am cognitively
intact and very intelligent and counseled abused women
myself .. ..I'm burned out from this guy. .. .he's never gotten
physical with me and is the politest guy when he's sober (for the
most part).
What's wrong with him or what's wrong with me?
thanks


Qoute 1

jackthedog

The drinking/verbal/emotional abuse slowly erodes at your soul. You think it is you that has a problem and you seek help to try to fix yourself, you learn new ways to communicate with AH, but he doesn't respond in a loving way and you think it is you again. When you finally realize it isn't you, well of course not totally you, it is like you are numb and don't know how to be happy anymore. Over the years, communicating has become limited and sharing of feelings that would lead to vulnerability become extinct. At first I felt this freedom that "yeah it wasn't me" now I feel angry and sad and when I come home from school, I teach, I dread the time I need to fill. I used to be depressed and not want to do the dishes, now I look forward to having something to do. I can't think of anything I want to do that would bring me joy. I don't feel like exercising, I am tired. Will this go away when he moves out? Will I ever find myself again? Sounds like a pity party I know, but I am hoping it is just a stage.

Live

It sounds to me like this abuse has beaten you down.

I am constantly saying this but one of the best things I did was get domestic violence counseling....many will say that it is the verbal/mental/emotional abuse that hurts worst and lasts the longest.

I completely agree with that.

Of course we get numb....with all that abuse we have to put up walls and shut down.
Then that becomes depression.
And depression brings helplessness and hopelessness and endless fatigue, loss of interest in things we used to enjoy.

I urge you to call and make an appointment for counseling.

We can and do heal...and we can be happy. Really happy.
I am doing it.

missphit

great thread, great information, great support. thank you! this has been really helpful!

freebuthurting

I agree.
For all that my husband was unpleasant and abusive - I was just as bad back - probably worse. And I blamed him for it too.
There is no excuse.