RobbyRobot

Nope. Any drinking alcoholic who blames others, in any way whatsoever, for their own continued drinking is creating their own ongoing problems and using said justifications to continue their own drinking. The buck stops with each drinker. Drinkers who won't take real ownership responsibility for their own drinking, well, they don't stop drinking. And so, their future is indeed grim. Blaming AA (members / organization / whatever) for causing others to continue to drink is the same as saying drinkers have no say in their own lives.

A pickled drunk has only one good choice moving forward: quit drinking above all else. You know, I was pickled. And so I used every trick I could grab to drink anyways and somehow live. No joy. Crash and burn. FUBAR.

When a drunk gets right down to brass tacks with themselves, nothing anybody says keeps that drunk drinking because they are themselves well beyond caring much for what anybody says anyways while still looking for that next drink. Sure, drunks say all the time they drank over this and that. So what. As if it made any difference what I drank over, lol. You know, people believe what they want to believe to get that next drink.

What makes AA totally weird is members and non-members alike are allowed to show up drunk, a little drunk, stoned, drugged up, feeling-good, buzzed, not hurting, relaxed.... and so on and whatever. And into this circus we mix in drunks who are sober, drunks who are sober but don't do the AA Steps, drunks who are sober but don't do spirituality, drunks who claim not to be alcoholics and don't accept the illness model, and so don't accept alcoholism exists as an illness... and so on and whatever.

I could write pages on the differences of members and non-members who show up at AA and do very little of what AA suggests. And yet, these same people demand to have an equal voice. They demand to be heard and respected and demand change be made ASAP. Sure they do. They want what they don't actually deserve, and what they don't and won't actually give back in return. These soap box politics get old fast.

AA a cult?
Seriously?
AA is a circus of performing personalities if its anything.

So, I've been sober decades now, and AA has been and continues to be the essential foundational rock of my sobriety. The life I've built speaks for itself. I'm a recovered alcoholic drug addict. I nonetheless still have alcoholism as an incurable illness of mind, body, and spirit. My alcoholism is in remission simply because of my choices on quitting, and how I choose to live out my sober lifestyle. It's my life to live, same as it was as a drinking drunk. I am as yet still cult free, lol.

RobbyRobot

Drinking with alcoholism is a death sentence. Alcoholism itself is not. It's really about personal choices when it comes down to what alcoholism is and is not when we speak about our own lives.

Boleo

If you hate swimming and refuse to go in the water - that's fine.

If you go to a pool and tell everyone there they don't belong in the water - that's sick.

Gottalife

[QUOTE=miamifella;5240750]

"However, people new to the program are going to take what they hear in meetings and from their sponsors as representing the program. In the 30 or 40 groups I attended it was often said that without AA you would not stay sober--that any alcoholic who does not recover the AA way will end up in prision, in a hospital, or dead."

In 35 years I have rarely if ever heard anyone told this. But I have heard many, including me, give credit to God and AA as the only things that could have saved us from certain death. This is a matter of our experience.

"I lived in a sober house between us we were given a laundry list of bizarre requests by our sponsors. None of us had the confidence or knowledge to tell our sponsor he was doing it wrong."

I have heard these stories but have never experienced it directly. I always tell my sponsees if they can't reconcile something I have said with the big book, then they should disregard it. The best weapon the newcomer has against dodgy sponsors is the big book.

Two phrases to be wary of in AA are " my sponsor says" and "my therapist says".they maybe wise people but what does the book say?

I guess a lot of sponsors have some quirky ways of doing things and if they went back to the book they might learn the difference between what their sponsor told them and what the book actually says.

The cultish aspect I believe, can develop through hierarchical sponsors stepping in to gods role creating codependency rather than independence. Words like grand sponsor great grand sponsor give me the willies. The whole package is a long way from the big book.

Funnily enough though, the only group I have attended that felt culty, was one that really tries to practice the program as written. They would not accept the type of all controlling sponsorship mentioned above, and they are so determined in this that they are quite unpopular with the other members.

So it seems in practice a group that pushes inappropriate sponsorship and one that wants to stick to the aa message, though complete opposites, will attract the same label.

LBrain

this still going on? yeowza.

I saw a reference to sulfuric acid and chuckled - then I realized it was someone's name...

well, well, well, LB went to a meeting last night. I wanted to see someone, and just go to a meetin... wife likes that I go on occasion. Excellent meeting - resentment discussion - this is one of the better meetins around here. But we all still seem to have the same father at the end. Resentments, like why do I resent AA? HA-HA
Got to talk to folks I haven't seen in a while.
But that's not why I am posting. I heard an unmistakable voice last night. It took me a little time to figure it out. It was "Joey". A kid that was in my IOP group from last Feb. I had a chat with him after the meetin, after a few members spent time with him. He is on step 4 going to step 5. He's reaching out for help this time.
A kid that was relapsing weekly and was finally taken away by the 'PO' and sent to inpatient. After he got out - he used someone else to pee for him. Then got popped again. Was sent to 3 months inpatient. But drank and violated and spent 2 months behind bars. Then another 3 months inpatient. He got 'out' last week. At the end of the meeting he announced he was working the steps and needed a sponsor to help him since he was new to the area. True. My iop was twenty miles south. "Joey" wanted my phone number. I told him I didn't do the steps and I only go to one meeting a month or less. But I gave him my number in case he needed to talk.

I thought that was pretty cool. Hopefully he gets it this time. Here is a case where AVRT will definitely not work - or much else for that matter. But if he can get sober using AA - then hurray for AA. This kid needs it. 19 years old. Comes from a well off family. Not a street thug or tough guy. Just a babe really. It seems as though he is going to give it a shot this time.
Made me feel good.

JeffreyAK

You are putting words in my mouth, so there is not much point in continuing. However I do think your inability to understand the depth of addiction problems in many people is troubling. Just as some people need help to get out of the hole, some people can be sent farther down the hole by misguided help. Defending that misguided help seems cruel.

JeffreyAK

So you are defending the statement in the big book, fine. I'll paste it again from above:

“Unless each A.A. member follows to the best of his ability our suggested Twelve Steps to recovery, he almost certainly signs his own death warrant. His drunkenness and dissolution are not penalties inflicted by people in authority; they result from his personal disobedience to spiritual principles.”
~Bill W. pg 174, 12&12

Boleo

Actually, that statement never appeared in the Big Book. It is buried deep within the 12 Traditions. Something most AA members never see in its expanded form.

Why is it that those who are determined to find fly-poop never see the pepper?

:

tomsteve

Think about it. That's all I'll say.

RobbyRobot

Actually, I'm defending your right to speak out, on your experiences. AA doesn't need defending from me or any one else. Now, looking at your quoted text..

"... His drunkenness and dissolution are not penalties inflicted by people in authority; they result from his personal disobedience to spiritual principals."

This to me means a drunk drinks only on his own authority. Period. I'm okay with all that, as I already said. I think Bill assumes an AA member when following the program to the best of his or hers ability, he assumes they have an open mind towards embracing spiritual principles. So, I'm good with that too.

Next we have:

“Unless each A.A. member follows to the best of his ability our suggested Twelve Steps to recovery, he almost certainly signs his own death warrant."

This suggests to me Bill is saying he assumes the said member understands there is little purpose in being a member of AA, doing AA program to recover, if at the same time playing around with whether alcoholism is a fatal illness, as it is described as in the AA Anonymous texts.

So yeah, I understand for myself by personal experience anyways, without defending it, what Bill has said. And I understand you don't agree with me, or with Bill. No worries here on that, JeffreyAK.

biminiblue

I just came to pass out more hugs. This time to Robot, because he makes sense. And because he's in AA and therefore I'm sure wants a hug.

:borghug:

lacey424

The only ignorance I see is yours. Alcoholism is the ONLY disease i can think of reguarly "treated" with 80 year treatments (12 step ptograms ) if you went to the doctor for diabetes, muscular dystrophy, herpes, autism they wouldn't hand you an 80 year old book and say, good luck. No one is comparing diseases. They are saying alcohol treatment needs to join the 21st century.

silentrun

I think we should call it "cult shaming", you know kind of take the sting out of the word like women did with the S word. If everything goes perfectly your thoughts and behavior will be reformed. So you can't be too shocked when people say cult. Plus those one liners don't help.

LBrain

Now I'm confused. Or rather, curious. The "S" word? I googled it, yes I did, and came up with the word used used for manure. It seems when it was shipped it had to be stored in such a manner that it could not come in contact with water. Water would cause the production of methane and - bad things happen when methane is produced. Especially in confined spaces.
Stow High In Transit. S.H.I.T. It seems these 'initials' were stamped on the bundles of manure for shipping at sea. Apparently not much else had that requirement and it became the standard word used for manure. Of course it has evolved over the years. I know my 'S' don't stink.

Unsure of what it has to do with women. Except that it is uncertain that all women actually perform this function.

Dee74

I think we've reached the point in the thread where it's mostly insults, jokes, the same points made over or personal conversations best left to PM.

I'm calling time on this one. Let's all go help someone else

If you want to know what the word was, PM silentrun, Lbrain.

Dee
Moderator
SR