Boleo

Having seen hundreds (perhaps thousands) of people get solid sober time and then relapse, I am beginning to see a subtle difference between "recovery" and "recuperating".

Recovery means having some long term goals worth striving 100% for. Those goals may not be the same for everyone; some want to see their children grow up without a drunk parent or others may want to go the grave sober. But at least their goal is not in the near future. They are grateful for being sober ODAAT but they don't consider that "good enough".

Recuperation seems to be an entirely different viewpoint. ODAAT is is placed on a pedestal as being the ultimate form of recovery and being sober just for today is considered 100% successful... even if it means struggling One-Arduous-Day-At-A-Time for years and years with no real advancement beyond marginal sobriety. The achievement of some short-term goal is not only everything - it is the only thing. Anything else is considered superfluous if not outright politically incorrect.

The reason that I am bringing this subject up in the first place is because I have made a commitment to stop posting in 12 step forums and stop attending traditional fellowship meetings. I am considered a nuisance in most recovery circles because I talk about spiritual awakenings and total emancipation from the thoughts and temptations of using a mind altering substance. The whole idea of liberation from addiction seems to be a taboo subject.

It strikes me as odd that in most debate circles, both quality and reliability are considered pinnacle goals for achievement, and yet, when it comes to recovery circles... barely marginal recovery is not only acceptable, but is considered the only politically correct benchmark for recovery.

Carlotta

I think that one day at a time can be a good tool for newcomers who are still struggling with their AV but like you, I really don't subscribe to the ODAAT thing.

I quit for good and my sobriety is not negotiable. Saying one day at a time for me would be like bargaining with my AV and implying that maybe tomorrow it would be ok to drink. It's not going to happen.

At this point of my journey, I consider myself recovered. My mindset has shifted and drinking is not part of the equation anymore.
Meditating daily, practicing mindfulness and posting the daily readings on another forum are part of the maintenance process I guess but for me nowadays, I do it because I enjoy it.

Redmayne

All that you've said in the previous post works for me. I now have no problem in recognizing and accepting that I suffer from alcoholism, which is not a vice, but an illness or disease, the only respite from which is absolute abstinence from alcohol.

Having left all that behind well over seven years ago now, alcohol no longer plays any part in my life to the extent where it, like many other things in my, whilst I accept their existence it's of no interest to me...

With the proviso that I will always share my experience, strength and hope to assist anyone still suffering from the only illness that'll tell you , you haven't got it, whilst killing you at the same time...

On a more personal note, I have found practising the principles of both Buddhist and Stoic philosophy have not only assisted but measurably enhanced both my recovery and my life. Which are both very rational in their content.

Together with the writings of Richard Bach, particularly,'Illusions: The Adventures of a Reluctant Messiah,' and 'Messsiah's Handbook - Reminders for the Advanced Soul,' written for those who want to pilot (he's a keen aviator) lives...

Carpathia

I am relatively new to sobriety and my perspective comes from that angle. I depend on the wisdom contained in the blue book and in that book it's written all we have is a daily reprieve, contingent on our spiritual program. ODAAT keeps our disease foremost in our thoughts, so that our actions are guided by recovery, as surely they must be if we wish to attain any goal, near or far.

Carpathia

And I am a little bit confused by your post, Boleo. I'm not sure what you're trying to communicate.

Are you saying you feel as though it's possible to cure oneself of addiction?

Redmayne

Great post, I not only agree with but support all you've said, not least because whilst alcohol may no longer lay a part in my life, 'The Serenity Prayer', which is strongly, in its wording, linked to Stoic philosophy which in turn forms the core value of Cognitive Behavioural Therapy. Is included in my daily prayers and meditations together with a prayer of gratitude for my recovery and all it's brought with it, not least the fact I'm alive!

The daily reminder that whilst I am now, 'the Master of my fate and once more the Captain of my soul' see the poem,' Invictus', which I certainly wasn't in my drinking days I will always suffer from alcoholism. Now enhances this making me remember what Carl Sandburg said,' A society (or individual - my words) that forgets where it came from, will destroy itself,' history has proved the truth of that on a regular basis...

Boleo

No where in the Big Blue Book does it say we keep sober ODAAT. A daily reprieve may look like ODAAT from the perspective of an outside observer but it does not feel at all like a daily struggle from an inside perspective. It feels like "safe and protected".

ODAAT may be the best way to start out with sobriety (perhaps the only way) but like starting out in first gear in an automobile, it is not a safe or efficient way to cruise for long periods. It will eventually strain the engine and cause it to blow up sooner or later.

Those of us who have "recovered", know that the real long term goal of recovery is to become liberated form anything feeling like a struggle. We went on to treat the ISM component of alcohol-ISM by finding some kind of daily program of action that attracts the equanimity that makes long term sobriety safe, reliable and comfortable.

ODAAT implies a daily struggle that can go on indefinitely. It may look like 100% recovery to an outside observer, but it feels like a never ending arduous task to those experiencing it. Calling this level of marginal sobriety "recovery", is as dangerous as stepping one foot outside of a burning building and going no further.

Many of those who claim to be in "recovery" are really holding on to the option to drink again (perhaps tomorrow) by using ODAAT as their benchmark for recovery.

Boleo

Neither fear or morbid reflection have any place in my recovery. Buddha said any and all attachments are like trying to row a boat while still tied to the dock.

My goal in recovery is to be totally emancipated from thoughts of both drinking and not-drinking.

Redmayne

Just to be clear, I have no problem with what path or program others choose in recovery, with the proviso that it provides prolonged, lasting and constructive sobriety leading to a peaceful, sober, happy existence.

Which is the sole purpose of the book,'Alcoholics Anonymous' on which my recovery is based, ably assisted by listening to, at the same time, a recording of ,' Charlie (Parmley) and Joe (McQuany)'s: Big Book Study Meeting,' and taking the necessary steps to bring contained in their collective content to bring it about....it's worked quite successfully for 2,801 days now and I've no reason to suspect it won't continue for the rest of my life as it has done for many others....

Having regard to all the circumstances, the one thought that, especially when others propose other programs , often untried and untested to any real, meaningful, lasting extent is the Buddhist saying,'Anything that contradicts logic and experience should be abandoned.' Most specifically in the case of those seeking recovery, because its failure can lead to fatal result, consequences well worth thinking about by those seeking to offer it before it's ever proposed to anyone else.

I wouldn't want others demise on my conscience....,

Boleo

There you go misquoting Buddha... again, and misinterpreting what it says in the Big Book... as usual.

I wouldn't want others demise on my conscience either. That's why I don't endorse half-measures or marginal recovery. If you ever get around to reading page 85 of the Big Book, take at look at this passage and tell me if appears to be promoting marginal recovery:

"We will see that our new attitude toward liquor has been given us without any thought or effort on our part. It just comes! That is the miracle of it. We are not fighting it, neither are we avoiding temptation. We feel as though we had been placed in a position of neutrality—safe and protected. We have not even sworn off. Instead, the problem has been removed. It does not exist for us. We are neither cocky nor are we afraid. That is how we react so long as we keep in fit spiritual condition."

Aellyce

Hi Boleo,

Thanks for this post. I have had similar thoughts in sobriety -- why the ODAAT approach just does not tend to click with me in the context of long-term recovery beyond the initial phase of tackling getting sober (dealing with cravings etc). I was one of those who preferred the Big Plan type of decision regarding sobriety from the very beginning because the idea of having to revisit it daily or frequently gives me anxiety and would probably decrease my commitment. I generally think it's a personality thing: we differ in terms of life strategies, and the way we handle addiction recovery in many ways reflects the larger picture of ourselves, I believe. For me, "ODAAT" was more an attitude I developed and lived by as an active alcoholic: just doing today, not caring and dealing with consequences and losing my integrity, my longer term vision. Of course I don't want to compare my dysfunctional attitude to the constructive strategy of breaking down the challenge of getting sober ODAAT that works for so many people, because they are entirely different things. I am also not someone who ever wants to argue over methods of recovery or rely too much on prescribed methods, only one modality, etc. I don't even like to cite and quote others too much personally, much prefer to express my own thoughts and opinions. Like to read the books and listen to a variety of perspectives, then synthesize my own thoughts and ways of living. But I do believe there are many different great ways and attitudes, we just need to find what works best for us.

I believe that for me this sense of always wanting to think about the future is also in part coming from the fact that I am prone to anxiety and have lived with varied levels of it in my whole life. But I think in many ways it serves me well, for example in terms of being a good strategist in general (anticipating difficulties and adversaries) -- this is a feature I have used in my life constructively in many ways. And I personally don't think at all that wanting to see perspective and follow longer term goals is in any sort of conflict with mindfulness and being able to be present, I think these two can complement in a well-integrated person in very progressive ways. Overly focusing on the future and long term goals only becomes a problem when we use it as distraction and escape from what needs to be done in the present, in my view.

Aellyce

One more thought chain. I often think that those of us who strongly commit to one belief system, faith, or philosophy probably have an easier time taking life (including recovery) per day... Perhaps because such strong beliefs provide a sense of security and support, a feeling of safety that there is always something external and established to turn to and live by when the going gets rocky. Not saying I'm right about this, just a thought I had many times.

For me, I've been into studying many different thought systems, philosophies, values, whatnot pretty much since I was a kid, but have never been able to stick with one (or even a few) established world views that I could just apply and integrate into my being and that's it. Like finding the "one"... I never even much believed in that in the context of human relationships. My interests and tendencies are typically very fluid and dynamic and while I do take on many ideas and values from external influences and can internalize these easily, the whole construct is still always subject to change in an open-ended way (with death being the only thing I believe is inevitable). This also means that I am constantly interested in novelty, in "what else is there", in potential, in life being a process that is primarily formed by myself in a dynamic way, and how I interact with external reality. So in this context, it's almost impossible to view life for me as just today, or set my focus very much only on the present moment.

It's an endless seeker attitude that some people have I think and others less interested. I've been told many times by great and very intelligent people that life has become more meaningful and enjoyable once they stopped the constant "searching" and started to live life as it comes every day -- but I just cannot apply that to myself much. At least not so far. I am aware that there is always a hint of fear of commitment in me that colors and underlies my personality and orientations, but I believe it's more than just that and is also a manifestation of open-mindedness.

Carpathia

Aellyce, what you've described in your post is wisdom. I believe we cannot attain it if we aren't open-minded.

I don't mean to 'tsk-tsk' those who've settled on one doctrine as a spiritual path because, as you may have indicated, each person has their own path, their own truth.

But I have lapsed. I can be really judgmental of others and their parochialism. The beauty of wisdom; seeing it, accepting it and saying, yup, I'm being a hater, lets turn this battleship around.

Boleo

Same with me. I do a lot of reading and philosophizing with a hammer when it comes to most of life's decisions. However, when it comes to long-term recovery, I am super-duper fastidious about not letting those who only have "opinions about an experience which thay have not yet had" influence my recovery. I almost won a Darwin Award by nearly taking myself out of the gene pool with repeated relapses on alcohol because I mistakenly trusted logic and reason to guide my recovery.

Now I keep opinions compartmentalized from experience. Specially when it comes to recovery. ODAAT may look like smart way to stay sober; but both first and second hand experience has tought me otherwise. I have lost friends who once had more sobriety than me, because they placed ODAAT on a pedastel and ended up relapsing without ever getting back into recovery. IMO they were never really into recovery in the first place. Funerals have changed my opinions/experience drastically.

Boleo

What's this... a "quote out of context"?

"Anything that contradicts logic and experience should be abandoned. However, if something contradicts logic but not experience, we should rely on experience rather than logic when such experience also corresponds to what the wise have to say."
(Kalama Sutta)

?Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.? | Fake Buddha Quotes

Gottalife

Ah there you are Boleo. I wondered where you had got to. The 12 step forum seems to have lost quite a few of its safe and protected recovered posters recently and it's a shame.

I miss your succinct posts about the program, I learned a lot from you and gained some great insights. Just so you know, your posts were appreciated, probably by a lot more people than you think.

Andante

Just as individual aptitudes for math and language vary, people don't all have the same level of aptitude for attaining an advanced spiritual experience.

"ODAAT" and "Meeting Makers Make It" may be the closest some folks are able to get to "Safe and Protected." Why deprive them of even that small comfort? Why go into a Remedial Arithmetic class and then wonder why your insistence on talking about tensors and differential equations makes you a "nuisance?"

Isn't there something in the literature about "meeting people on their own level?"

Redmayne

Great post, reminding me that part of the AA philosophy is bound in the idea of ,'Live and let live! Along with the observation, I think it's in 'As Bill Sees It,' that there are only two sins in recovery. To interfere in anothers recovery and to interfere in your own recovery.

To which I'd add, the biggest one is to do both at the same time!

Proving the point that it often pays to engage your bran before putting your mouth or in this case, tapping the keys, in gear...

Boleo

There again, it looks like a good idea to let each individual choose their own level of recovery. However, does it actually work? Addicts have corrupted decision making skills embedded into their brains to start out with.

As the British like to say; "The proof is in the eating of the pudding".
Only in the case of marginal recovery methods, the proof is not there at all - not even one little tiny bit. All the stats and surveys point to results that are LESS than average. Less than spontaneous recovery even.

I have seen a superfluous amount of failure first hand, and now must ask myself "why would I want to be a member of an organization designed to fail?" How many failures must we generate before someone finally speaks up and says "It just ain't working." D-students teaching newcomers Remedial Arithmetic ends up producing more D-students.

Soberpotamus

For what it's worth, I never did the ODAAT approach either. I committed indefinitely. In it for the long haul.