ESD907

I come and go. But my fav thing is that pic of doggie.

JaneLane

Hi Jeni,

I'm in London and would love to know if you hear about any meetings!

Redmayne

I've always thought that the opportunity for 'Refuge Recovery', was offered in what the Buddhist's refer to as 'The Three Jewels' of 'The Three Refuge's'

Which are,

1. The Buddha and his teachings.

2. The Dharma, Buddhist's scripts, etc.

3. The Sangha, the Buddhist community.

Much of which can be undertaken on a personal basis, by simply taking the actions and broadening your horizons, done on the basis, as the Buddha said of,

1. Relying on yourself.

2. Applying the principle of anything that contradicts logic and experience should be abandoned.

Which, applying cognitive thinking (truth and reason) provides a much more safe, secure and logical way of pursuing recovery followed by lasting sobriety than relying on others. The pursuit and outcome of what they offer probably be proved tenuous balanced against something which has proved its worth over 1,000's of years. Just a thought...

Boleo

"In order to avoid confusion it should be mentioned here that there are two kinds of truth: conventional truth and ultimate truth. When we use such expressions in our daily life as "I" "you", "Being", "individual", etc., we do not lie because there is no self or being as such, but we speak a truth conforming to the convention of the world.

But the ultimate truth is that there is no "I" or "being" in reality. As the Mahayana-Sutralankara says: "A person should be mentioned as existing only in designation (i.e., conventionally there is no being), but not in reality."

(Walpola Rahula - What the Buddha Taught)

"Anything that contradicts logic and experience should be abandoned. However, if something contradicts logic but not experience, we should rely on experience rather than logic when such experience also corresponds to what the wise have to say."
(Kalama Sutta)

Boleo

Another example of the attempt to introduce the idea of self into the Buddha's teaching is in the well-known words 'Attaddipa viharatha, attasarana anannasarana', which are taken out of context in the 'Mahaparinibbana-sutta'. This phrase literally means: 'Dwell making yourself your refuge and not anyone else as your refuge'.

Those who wish to see self in Buddhism interpret the words 'attadipa' and 'attasarana' as 'taking self as a lamp' or 'taking self as a refuge'.

We cannot understand the full meaning and significance ot the advice of Buddha to Ananda, unless we take into consideration the background and the context in which these words were spoken.

(Walpola Rahula - What the Buddha Taught)

Boleo

Whenever we see the word "Self" in Buddha's quotes, it is vital to find out which type of "Self" Buddha was actually pointing to;

Atman - the individual personified self. Containing ego, consciousness and soul (a purely illusory figure in Buddhism).

Samkhara - which denotes the "Five Aggregates"; conditional, interdependent, relative , physical and mental states.

Dhamma - wider than Samkhara; universal. unbound, all inclusive and undefinable.

Redmayne

So, as per usual, anyone who offers a credible alternative to you
is wrong?

The usual reason for this behaviour, when it's not answered by way of constructive comment or criticism, offering a viable alternative, as any psychologist will tell you, is because the person doing so has a distorted or delusional view of reality.

Very much like alcoholics in their drinking days or those suffering from a psychosis...that's not you is it?

I look forward to your response...

Boleo

Some of us dig a little deeper into Buddhism than others. I'm not saying that your position is less valid than mine. However, from my perspective it just looks less mature.
:

Redmayne

Subtle as an air read and much more fun....

zerothehero

I like the Noah Levine Dharma Punx schtick. I can relate. He's about ten years younger than me, and I see myself somewhere between Noah's punk era and the hippie era of say, Ram Dass (Richard Alpert). I was too young to be a hippy, and kind of an older punk, but I walked the line, relating to the peace and love message of the former with the angst and frustration of the latter.

Regardless, I like Levine's message (what I understand so far), and I've been walking a similar path, though I admittedly rode the addiction wave much longer before I got a clue.

Mindfulness Based Relapse Prevention and other books or programs that borrow from Buddhist philosophy now abound. It was a natural for me. My location is too rural to get involved in any group or program, but I get it. Recovery is about addressing our suffering as much as it is about facing our addictions. They're inextricably linked.

Go to amazon and search "mindful recovery" and you'll find lots of books. I recommend Lawrence Peltz. I think it's time for me to re-energize my recovery and do some more reading...

Thanks.

greens

My friend keeps inviting me to refuge recovery I may go tonight - it is Right by my house and pretty big in my area.

zerothehero

I just decided to buy the book. I got Dharma Punx, too. It was less than a buck used.

When I posted above I didn't realize there were four pages of conversation preceding. I'm kind of out of it today. Blame it on the meds...

Soberpotamus

So does Dharma Punx somehow fuse Buddhism & Punk culture? How does that work? Just curious

I've heard of it, btw. Just haven't read it.

zerothehero

From what I gather, Dharma Punx is Noah Levine's first book focusing on his transition from angry high punk to Buddhist in recovery.

Soberpotamus

Ah, I see. I'd assumed he was fusing the two cultures somehow. Well, this makes more sense.

Aellyce

I've read both Refuge Recovery and Dharma Punx. I learned about the whole thing for the first time here on this thread, from Boleo, and it immediately captured my attention, like a view and life experience I could potentially relate to. What I like in Noah Levine is that he went through all these experiences, and it's not that he simply followed another (traditional) philosophy and transformed into a different person -- it's that he has managed to keep his authentic self and find a recovery and lifestyle and way of thinking that really suits him and is apparently also helpful for many others worldwide. I personally relate with his views and suggestions much better than anything in the AA literature (and I also found that helpful). One reason is that I feel it's a more introspective and investigative approach, and that clicks with me naturally. Still got to go to a meeting, I missed the one I wanted to attend due to some urgent work stuff.

Soberpotamus

Interesting, well might be something I'll look into at some point.

JaneLane

I love Noah Levine and I first found out about him through his lovely talks on YouTube.
I do attend AA but I definitely explore a lot of options :-)

FeenixxRising

Meditate and Destroy, a documentary about Noah's life and his recovery, is currently available on Netflix US, streaming. However, it covers the period before Refuge Recovery was published.

zerothehero

Since stumbling upon this thread in May, I have since read Refuge Recovery and have continued my meditation and mindfulness practices. I was drawn to Refuge Recovery because when I quit drinking 19 months ago I immediately started meditation in earnest, getting a jump start with Lawrence Peltz's The Mindful Path to Addiction Recovery, which happens to be published by Shambhala (mentioned earlier).

What I like about the Refuge Recovery approach is that is kind of fuses the Four Noble Truths with the 12 Steps (minus references to God or a higher power). Earlier in this thread, Redmayne discussed self-reliance, and I am very much in favor of approaches that give credit where credit is due. Refuge Recovery puts the responsibility squarely on the individual. That said, the concept of sangha or community is well established in Buddhist tradition, and certainly those in recovery often benefit from social connection. There are no Refuge Recovery meetings within hundreds of miles of my home, but I'm considering starting one. Until then, I tread this path alone in an isolated rural community, with my only sangha here on SR. Thanks for that, by the way.