rose28

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...-recovery.html

A similar post I've just seen x

Boleo

While the book uses the term "Non-theist", I don't think it is fair to call it secular or non-secular. Belief in "Buddha Nature" or "Original Self" is still a belief in something unearthly or mystical.

I myself like to call it "Universal Consciousness" or Jungian "Collective Unconscious". Or better yet - The Tao.

"The tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao."
(Laozi - Tao Te Ching)

soberlicious

I pulled some of my post on the other thread and brought it over here. The threads are similar, yet different.

I've read a lot of the Dharma Punx Nation stuff, and it was the Buddhist path that I began to follow when I quit 8 years ago. I found the practice of sitting with discomfort very similar in nature to the seeing the AV and watching it as an observer- not acting on it-not interacting with it. I see addiction/craving/use of substances intertwined in the five hinderances.
Yes, and while reaching a level of higher consciousness is considered mystical, I also think sometimes confusion comes in with how the terms are interpreted and commonly used (albeit incorrectly). Unearthly and/or mystical does not necessarily equal deity and/or supernatural-ish stuff.

I haven't read Refuge Recovery, but I ordered it today so that I can effectively discuss. Looking forward to ya'lls thoughts on it.

Boleo

I myself don't like to use the terms secular or non-secular because I want to keep an open mind to the possibility that "Buddha Nature" may just be using a part of the mind seldom tapped into by the average human-being, or at least seldom described by the average human-being simply because it is an tacit experience (aka Bodhisattva).

I am also open to the idea that what's really going on is the building of new neural paths by detaching (aka dissociating) from old neural paths and reattaching to new neural paths. So science may one day say it is really just a form of evolution of the mind or a rewiring of our neural network.

soberlicious

Boleo, I agree.


and, yes...


that just happened.

Aellyce

I completed my PhD at this University community on the verge of 2000 (2002)
Bluebrain | EPFL

So, what do "spiritual" or "secular" mean? I think almost any personal belief can be expressed as spiritual, and also almost any traditionally spiritual ideas can have more "down-to-earth" versions. Just think about the practical HP interpretations many have (the "door knob" etc).

I agree with you in that when we choose to explore these things, whatever they are, it's usually driven by personal interest and belief. I don't think there is anything wrong with that. I don't even think we must choose between things such as secular or non-secular, or even spiritual. What advantage would such a choice bring us when we live our lives and "write" our philosophies here and now?

Boleo

Seeing as you are involved in Neuroscience and algorithms for Brain Reconstruction, what is your take on the human ability to build/develop/evolve new Neural pathways in the brain?

My theory is that spiritual awakenings, and enlightenment in general, are simply building new neural networks via new actions (Karma) and intentions (Dharma).

soberlicious

Yes, that's the thing. I believe you can get as many different responses as people you ask. When say they had a "spiritual awakening" what they very often mean is they came to God. So if I describe my epiphany/ my moment of shift/my razor sharp moment of clarity/my turning point in relation to my addiction as a "spiritual awakening" it is often misunderstood. There was nothing supernatural about my experience. Was it powerful, life-changing, and does it defy description? yes...do I attribute it to a God or Gods? No.

Aellyce

Yes it's extremely exciting to be in the Neurosciences these days... it used to be a very theory-oriented field (along with Psychology) but the way the ever-expanding experimental approaches and technologies advance this field in the current era is beyond fascinating. For me anyways

To answer your question (in bold), I think it's entirely compatible with the current knowledge, which also has vast experimental validation now. Look up "neuroplasticity" if you are not yet familiar. I actually work on that myself, and our addiction-related studies keep leading back to mechanisms of neuroplasticity in almost every way we try to investigate it. In this context, what happens when we (gradually) become addicted is that new neural connections and paths are generated in our brains. And then we reinforced them with continued drinking/drugging. They get very ingrained, why it's so hard to break it and change it when we try to get sober, and why so often the attempts fail (relapses).

In recovery, just the same happens. We "remodel" our neural circuits and mechanisms with the hard and consistent work we put into it. I think the reason why it's so hard, especially in the beginning, is exactly because we need to change those neural networks, go against what's already there, and keep reinforcing it with both cognitive decisions/processes and continued actions. These do change our brain processes in many ways, much like environmental influences do (another "hot" area of research these days).

I agree with it. This is what has fascinated me about Buddhism in the first place when I got interested in it years ago. I'm totally amazed how accurate intuitive perceptions were available to humans already so long ago, and how modern science now keeps proving many of it. It's very compatible with current knowledge, I think. Practically speaking, I usually prefer to keep myself on the more "earthly" areas since I'm an experimentalist by history, but this is a choice and focus for me here and now. What triggered all this for me, one of my long-standing interests, and something still close to my heart and will always be, is the "question" of consciousness. Buddhism provides spiritual explanations to it, and it's also of great interest to Neuroscience and other disciplines. However, no matter how incredible technology developments we are facing in this era, in my opinion (and many in the neuroscientific field of consciousness studies would agree), we are not yet where this could truly be investigated using human resources. In fact, to share something "intimate", this was the reason why I rejected moving into the field of consciousness research a few years ago. I just don't think it's feasible enough (to my taste and standards) in my lifetime. So I've chosen stuff like neuroplasticity, because that is very here and now.

If you are interested in the point of view of a very prominent figure in biology, I love this interview with Francis Crick, who is best known for his participation in the discovery of DNA. But he had many other interests as well. I always relate to his personal evolution and curiosities a lot, maybe you, Boleo, would, too. It's just a different era for us, but so much similarity can be perceived in personal orientation.
A Visit With Dr. Francis Crick

scooterdog

Technically I an a Christian however I have studied Buddha... I found these books useful.

What the Buddha Taught: Revised and Expanded Edition with Texts from Suttas and Dhammapada
Author: Walpola Rahula

The Heart of the Buddha's Teaching: Transforming Suffering into Peace, Joy, and Liberation.
Author: Thich Nhat Hanh

Gottalife

No doubt that is a valid theory, but there must be a time factor involved in the construction of new neural networks surely.

In AA s early days the time factor was a component in AA recovery which medical science could not explain. Doctors of the time said what takes in AA a few weeks or months, should take years of therapy. The unexplainable element was the speed at which it works.

Back in them days, the program was worked very quickly and spiritual experiences were quite common. It seems to me that if one went through all those steps honestly and without reservation in the first few days of sobriety, it would likely have a much bigger effect than taking months or years over them. The slow path could be likened to breaking up your favourite ball game into ten minute segments spread over a few weeks. The game would lose all its emotional appeal.

The speed of AA seems to have been key in the early AA miracle. Has medicine advanced to the extent that it can work just as quickly, or has AA slowed down?

Boleo

Both my first hand experience and second hand observations suggest that the speed of spiritual awakenings/enlightenment are the direct result of action rather than time. In fact, I would go as far say that there is no minimum time requirement and "leaps of faith" are by far the fasted way to trigger or invoke them.

While I don't believe that they can be taught directly, what I do see is where they can be awakened with guidance and some sort of algorithm such as the eightfold path or 12 steps.


"The path of Refuge Recovery begins with the First Truth: addiction creates suffering. This is not a philosophy. It is a practice; it demands action. "
(Refuge Recovery page 4)

anattaboy

Glad you found something that may fit well for you Bo.

soberlicious

Boleo, in the meetings, do they discuss this text specifically? Do they talk about any of Levine's other books, or do they reference any other writings on Buddhism? I would like to attend a meeting, but like Bmac, I'm in South Florida and the only meeting is in Tallahassee...about a 5 hour drive. I read there are online meetings. Anyone familiar with these?

soberlicious

This is true and many in the fellowship don't know this part of AA history. I was actually involved in a "Back to Basics" course many years ago, whereby the group was led through all 12 steps in 4 four hour workshops. Interesting concept. I'm not in the fellowship, but I do lean toward more no nonsense approach in all my endeavors so it's follows that that crash course style made sense to me then and still does.

readerbaby71

Soberlicious, I just attended the women's online meeting yesterday morning and liked it a lot. There's a reading from one of Levine's books, and then a discussion. The people were very welcoming and I felt comfortable sharing. One thing I really like about it is that you don't have to define yourself as an addict and the conversation did not focus on drugs or alcohol. We talked about behaviors and ways of thinking that can be altered by applying and practicing the tenets of Buddhism. I hope you give it a try.

soberlicious

Thank you readerbaby I just might do that!!

MIRecovery

Interesting stuff. I am a firm believer in the more tricks we have in our bag the less likely we are to drink.

Keep us informed but if you start wearing a loin cloth you may want to back off ..... just kidding but I am serious about the keeping us informed

readerbaby71

I'm sorry, it's not online, it's a call-in phone meeting. It was nice to hear other people's voices!

Carlotta

I attended the meeting yesterday and I liked it. It was a small meeting and it started with a meditation. Then someone read from Levine's book and shared how what he read applied to him then tagged me (it was a tag meeting).
The meeting was definitely solution and spiritually oriented (no drunkologue there) and the atmosphere was very come and positive.

Suggested donation was 5 dollars. I wanted to purchase the book but they did not have it so someone loaned me his book. I plan to read it over the next few days and return it to him next Wednesday when I go back.
I liked the fact that it brings together what I learned at my Zen classes with recovery and the people were really nice.

The one down thing I could see is that I really doubt that someone who is low bottom and/or straight from the streets and still drinking/using would be able to connect and relate to what was read and what was shared. I feel that this is more for people who are already on their sober journey or people in active addiction who still have choices.

Anyway, I m striving at being more mindful and spiritual this year. I think that this is just what I need right now and would encourage people on this thread to check it out.