bemyself

Many welcomes to you Soberella.

You've been offered some very deep reflections (from their own experiences) of some very 'wise birds'; some of SR's wisest, in my book anyway :-)

I too have a hard time accepting deep down and every day that I'm an alcoholic, and that therefore, I have to put in some deep inner changes, lots of spiritual work (however you care to do that), and in a way hopefully that IS true to my own integrity. I get what you say about the 'tough love' stuff we sometimes get thrown by some AA members - indeed, I had one such an encounter only last night.

Previously, on many occasions over the last two years, I would come home fuming and muttering about such people and extrapolate 'them' into being ALL of AA as an entity. It's taken me many relapses this year - which is nearly over, and I'm back on day 8 ffs! - to be able to come home last night, after the above encounter, and to much more quickly calm my anger and irritation.

I'd learned just that tiny bit more about the need to set a boundary (in future) with that particular woman member rather than holus bolus running away from all of AA. It's all I have, for better and worse, for f2f support and if I don't simply hang out each day for an hour or two there, then I KNOW myself that I am very liable to drink again. And THAT does not need to happen, nor should it. I want to be sober AND practise reclaiming my inner integrity, which among other things for me, means boundaries.

I don't know if any of this helps, but I hope you get to to that kind of place too. Being your-self, and accepting what it takes to be so. We can't do that when 'lost in the bottle' as Marianne Faithfull once sang.

x

mecanix

Something i pick up on reading your post soberella is motivating oneself to be sober , i think that is useful , but i also think de-constructing the motivation to drink is also pertinent .

I don't really have to motivate myself to remain in the natural state . I do have to do some work to de-construct clever thinking and social conditioning within the culture we find ourselves in , there is nothing natural in imbibing rotten fruit juice for it's toxic effects , my body always rejects it , my mind is the only part of this organism that thinks differently . Luckily i was given the power to change my mind and dwell on and entertain the thoughts that i choose

Bestwishes, m

Soberella66

Hi Mecanix... that's a terrific idea. Thank you very much for your insightful input.

Lovenjoy

your title caught my eye because that thought kept me from getting comfortable with my recovery. i wanted to be cured and get on with my life. once i accepted that i was an alcoholic for life the real growth of recovery started. i can never drink in safety. my disease won't let me. so you can't drink, forever. what's so bad about that?! today i am a very grateful recovering alcoholic. now being an active alcoholic, that scares me!
as to working the program it gives us ways to get to the bottom of stuff and learn a whole new way to live. happy. fearless. fulfilled. serene. joyful. give it a try. stay sober today.

matt4x4

One is never cured from alcoholism. We can however be recovered from a seeminglessly hopeless state of mind and body. We will always be an alcoholic until the day we die, its a matter of living in sobriety today with serentiy and peace of mind. Once we have found the correct information, we must freely give it away. Because today in most rooms, the watered-down, rehab style of staying sober is prevelant. That does not work. However there is one method that has a suprisingly high success rate of 75%.

“Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average. There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest.”

Honest, Honesty, Rigorous Honesty. So there are no levels of honesty which I hear in the rooms of AA all the time. You are either honest or you are a liar. Simple.

freshstart57

Careful who you callin' a liar there, Matt. I believe you quoted a passage from a book that states that 'those who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program' are naturally incapable of honesty. They are liars?

I might be wrong on this, but is that what you said?

jdooner

Matt - tolerance for the views of others is also a principle in recovery in my book. It is great that AA is working for you but for many that DO achieve sobriety it is not the only path. You should be careful in other areas of this site to preach 12 step abstinence as it only serves to turn people away from a program that could help them. Further, as one who has experienced first hand multiple disciplines I don't believe every word in the BB should be treated as gospel.

It also might be helpful to to articulate your opinions from facts, as clearly all of your post is opinions.

Dee74

It's pretty clear to me that Matt was quoting from the Big Book.

I think that's something completely different from calling someone a liar, and most of us have been here long enough to know that.

D

FreeOwl

I'm with Boleo and awuh.....

there's a significant difference between just "going to meetings" and actively working the program.

Do you have a sponsor? Have you sat down, pen to paper, and worked on the steps? Have you put your sincere and deepest self to the task? Have you opened the door of willingness to let a higher power of some type - whatever you feel comfortable with - help you? Have you done this EVERY. DAY?

You don't have to stay stuck in this awful cycle.... but it takes WORK to change it.

soberlicious

Hi soberella,
I haven't carefully read through the entire thread, so maybe this has been said, but how about defining yourself as a non-drinker? I decided 7 years ago to quit drinking. I don't call myself an alcoholic. I just don't drink. I don't smoke either, after 30 years of smoking. I'm not a nicoholic, I'm just not a smoker.

What we call ourselves affects our thinking. I am new to running (about a year and a half). I am not fast, nor can I go super far yet. We were talking at my running group one day and I said, "but I'm not a real runner". The running coach was like, "What does that mean?" lol Indeed if I am running, I am a runner.

The labels we choose for ourselves are important and powerful. They can work for us, or against us. Only we can determine that. We needn't place on ourselves, nor accept from others, labels that don't work for us.

ru12

Be careful of the names you call yourself. I too quit drinking a few years ago. I am now just one of millions of people that don't drink. That is enough of a label for me.

Redmayne

People, if you let 'em, usually by providing them with the opportunity, are very fond and quick. To apply labels to others, it's a form of stereotyping, which is a dangerous practice, at any level...

Personally, I don't give others the opportunity, nor do I stereotype, apart from the fact, as I've always understood it.

No one can be declared an alcoholic, unless they, themselves declare that they are! It's that personal...

I just like being me, I've yet to come across anyone who has a problem with that.

IOAA2

From the BB How it Works:" Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our directions. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a way of life which demands rigorous honesty."

In my many years being among thousands of alcoholics honesty in general is not our strong point like it or not, sort of like a lot of fisherman! How often is the response "I only had one" among alkies accurate? We in general have a talent to turn and twist things to our advantage. Denial is a major reason so many can't/won't get sober, dishonesty or major mental damage?

freshstart57

I am familiar with the quotation, and with its source. It's a catch 22, it's the Emperor's New Clothes: people who can't get sober with AA are fundamentally dishonest. That in itself is a statement devoid of honesty. Plenty of folks get sober without AA. Plenty of folks cannot get sober with AA. I fit into both groups.

Apparently there is a difference between quoting stuff at random, and actually following the quote to its true meaning. Either the statement is false, or I am fundamentally dishonest - there is no alternative. Which one of these is your contention?

awuh1

people who can't get sober with AA are fundamentally dishonest (that’s not what the quote says. It says they are usually people who incapable of being honest with themselves). That in itself is a statement devoid of honesty (but that’s your statement, which is an inaccurate restatement of the original text.) Plenty of folks get sober without AA (very true, but the quote is not talking about any other program or method). Plenty of folks cannot get sober with AA (this is certainly true, if you are speaking of just going to meetings). I fit into both groups. (If I understand correctly you are saying that you could not get sober with AA. True? Did you do all 12 steps? Did you completely give yourself to “this simple program”? I'm curious. )

Either the statement is false, or I am fundamentally dishonest - there is no alternative. Which one of these is your contention? (BTW I believe the original quote **not your restatement} is correct and that you are not fundamentally dishonest.


So did you do the steps? Did you completely give yourself to this simple program?

bernice07

Soberella- I read the big book and it was really inspiring, the meetings I felt the same as you, the I started to read the twelve steps and really ponder each one and that helped too. I read a lot, come to this site and try to paint or draw just to keep my mind busy. it is very difficult I know, only 31 days sober and it is a minute by minute fight. You can do it, I know you can, I believe in you!

freshstart57

I was prepared to throw myself heart and soul into this, but the more I learned and the more people I talked to, the more disillusioned and disappointed I became until the entire thing became anathema to me. There was nothing I wanted there.

As for 'doing the steps', I had been familiar with this 'simple program and its spiritual principles' since I was a child. Had I been following it? Yes.
I didn't understand until later that I had already really decided to quit drinking before I went to my first meeting. I made sure that was enough.

Really. I still find that offensive.

awuh1

Thanks, I always like to know what people mean when they say that they “tried” AA.

Ya know, if that shoe doesn’t fit, no need to wear it. The quote says 'usually'. I noticed you left that out when rephrasing the quote.

I'd say more but I've already said it to the OP in my first post on this thread.

IOAA2

OK already! I am not going to join a nitpicking contest with someone at the end of a wire who may have too many non alcohol issues. I've been very active and sober in AA 35+ years with many thousands of meetings attended, so I write with some experience without being an AA spokesperson.
I will say that the majority of people with an alcohol problem deny the facts of their drinking situation, lying to themselves, a major block in recovery. Self honesty is the first step in our recovery or we are wasting our time etc.
Getting sober and staying sober for the long term, 6 months till death are often overlooked on these forums as many think that once the pains of withdrawal are done the jobs done. Far from it, like it or not!

BE WELL

zerothehero

Acceptance.

(Most of my compulsive drinking was about failing to accept situations and/or myself. I drank to change how I felt about myself and the world, and it worked at first. Then my "solution" became my problem. My recovery is about acceptance; acceptance of self and acceptance of the world as it is. That is not to say I'm going to sit and do nothing, but rather, that I am learning compassion for self and others, as well as breathing through those moments of grief, anger and/or frustration associated with lack of acceptance of life as it is. Thus, I am accepting that I am an alcoholic. It's not a question of whether or not I want to be an alcoholic. I am. I accept that, and that means I accept the obvious reality that I need to put alcohol in the past. It's not about what I want; it's about THAT I want.)