caboblanco

I have no beef with you guys. In fact I like to debate things. Im sorry if I come off offensive in any way. I didn't mean that. I didn't want to post on this thread again but I want to ask a question I have asked in other threads. If you have PROOF that there is a genetic link to alcoholism not so called EVIDENCE... please post a link. I would love to see that. There are many articles about studies that use buzzwords like" convincing evidence" or "lots of evidence" They are exaggerated for the purpose of the article. anyway if you claim there is proof..i would like to see that

jdooner

I find no beef in your posts and genuinely like the healthy debates. My argument is genetic evidence found in certain addiction including alcoholism see ADH1B, ADH1C, ADLH2.

The genetics of addiction

caboblanco

That was a great article...a valid one

this is a quote directly from the article...."Despite numerous studies examining putative candidate genes for addiction-related phenotypes, the field has been characterized by lack of replication and there are remarkably few genes that we can say with confidence are associated with addiction."

the genes you mention...they say in the article that they have a stronger link to alcoholism...nowhere does it say it is proven that this gene can cause you to be an alcoholic

jdooner

With all due respect you are cherry picking verbiage from a study: You stated there is no association between genes and addiction - later changed to alcoholism but I am taking the stance of addiction.

SO I can cherry pick too from the same study. Listen we can agree to disagree and I accept your opinion but don't accept it as fact:

Several genes have been implicated in various aspects of cocaine addiction. These include dopaminergic single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs) in DRD2/ANKK149 as well as neighboring NCAM1 and TTC12, CALCYON,50 dopamine beta-hydroxylase (DBH)51 and catechol-O-methyltransferase (COMT);52 opioidergic genes such as POMC;53 CNR1;54 orthologs of genes regulating circadian rhythms (CLOCK, PER1, and PER2);55 tryptophan hydroxylase 2 (TPH2)56 and others gleaned from linkage studies (for example, alpha-endomannosidase (MANEA))57—a majority of these await replication. Of particular interest, the functional SNP in the CHRNA5/A3/B4 cluster on chromosome 15, rs16969968, (extensively discussed in later sections and in Table 1 with reference to nicotine dependence) has been found to be associated with cocaine dependence in two independent studies—paradoxically, the allelic variant of this marker that confers risk for nicotine dependence appears to afford protection from cocaine addiction.58, 59

jdooner

Caboblanco - BTW - I do like the name - Born to Run was a great book.

Is your problem with AA? I too have challenged some of the ideas and have been in some debates on this forum over the powerlessness. But I am curious what about the genetic link or non link is it that bothers you? If there is a link then does it undermine the willpower or self will, which is what you believe? Genuinely curious.

caboblanco

I just don't know why the recovery culture in our country is so hell bent on proving that alcoholism is genetically based. well they are hell bent on making it look like they proved it. Is that to prove their disease theory? Is that so alcoholics can get more help for their problem through insurance companies? It seems the accepted facts on alcoholism all have motives that aren't about was is the truth. it is politically correct to define alcoholism as a disease and to say without a doubt that it is genetic..ask any random person on the street and 9 out of 10 will agree with this. Do most people ever think why they would agree with that..of course not. They are influenced by propaganda. what is the reason behind this propaganda..i don't know

yeah i know i meant addiction too..not just alcoholism

DoubleBarrel

Gene Linked To Alcoholism

The Collaborative Study on the Genetics of Alcoholism: An Update

dwtbd

I believe there are agendas at work in 'proving' the disease model. Look at what groups fund these 'scientific' studies. Most of what I see in the studies comes from a bad scientific or philosophic stance, ie these studies use science(genetic mapping, identification technologies) to 'prove' their hypothesis. That is the use of science(technology), but hardly the 'scientific method'.

There are just too many variables to start with, eg what is the definition of alcoholism and by what standard is the definition derived? Is it the behaviour of individuals, or the biochemical processes involved in the metabolism of alcohol , or ?

At the end of the day If it can be shown that there is in fact a genetic predisposition to addiction in general or "alcoholism" specifically, what of it?
Would the answer to that question create a 'treatment'( or more pointedly lend credence to the idea that treatment is indicated), aside from abstainence?

Pleasure/pain , displeasure avoidance responses and their cumlative effect on the human psyche is a more rational approach to understand or explain addiction, imho.

Threshold

I think insurance programs pay for treatment for smokers, alcohlics, addicts because it saves them money down the line.

Even several weeks in a rehab is less than the surgeries, hospital time and physical therapy after a bad DUI accident.

Liver problems, cancer, etc etc.

Preventative care?

dwtbd

Doesn't this rest on the premise that 'treatment' is viable?

Threshold

I assume it does rest on that premise. Which is rather interesting seeing that insurance companies are the poster child of number crunching...I would love to see what THEIR recovery % charts look like!

bemyself

With reference back to DB's link to the Collaborative Study: I think it's instructive to read the study design closely, and then to reflect on the fact that the results are now 10 years old (pub. date 2003).

"Study Design

"Because of the expected complexity of factors contributing to alcoholism risk, COGA required a large sample size to allow detection of the genetic “signal” through the “noise.” Of particular concern was the likely variability within the sample of both the number and type of genetic and environmental factors contributing to alcoholism risk; therefore, the contribution of any one factor would only account for a small fraction of the variation in risk. The investigators chose a family study design to allow the use of multiple methods of genetic analysis. Systematic recruitment from outpatient and inpatient alcoholism treatment facilities and assessment of families initially was carried out at six sites across the United States, with a seventh site more recently. The study also included a large sample of control families that were randomly selected from the community. For the analyses, the researchers chose a split–sample design—two groups of subjects (i.e., an initial sample and a replication sample) were analyzed independently; this approach allows investigators to examine the reproducibility of the initial study findings.

Because of the complexity of the risk factors for alcoholism and of the disorder itself, the COGA project was designed to gather extensive data from the participants. Although standard diagnostic systems for alcoholism can reliably determine who needs treatment, the diagnostic criteria used in these systems comprise problems in many domains of functioning. This means that two people with the same diagnosis (e.g., alcohol dependence as defined in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Third Edition, Revised [DSM–III–R] of the American Psychiatric Association [APA] [1987]) may have different sets of symptoms, greatly complicating genetic analyses. Therefore, COGA researchers gathered a detailed psychiatric history of each participant, along with electrophysiological data (electroencephalograms [EEGs] and event–related potentials [ERPs]). These multiple domains of data (described in detail in Begleiter et al. 1995, 1998; Hesselbrock et al. 2001) provide a rich resource for exploring phenotypes related to alcoholism. In addition, they allow analyses under standard diagnostic systems, such as the 4th edition of the DSM (DSM–IV) (APA 1994) and the 10th edition of the International Classification of Diseases and Related Problems (ICD–10) of the World Health Organization (WHO) (1992–1994).

The strategies for genetic analyses in the COGA study also had to accommodate the anticipated genetic complexity of alcoholism and the multiple phenotypes that would be collected. Therefore, COGA investigators chose an unbiased survey of the entire genome. For participants from families with three or more alcoholic family members, the investigators conducted genetic analyses using microsatellite markers—DNA regions located across all chromosomes, in which short repeated sequences exist in many variants (i.e., alleles). This process is called genotyping. More than 1.2 million genotypes have been generated on 2,310 people from families of alcoholics and 1,238 people from control families. By monitoring the inheritance patterns of such marker alleles within families with alcoholic members, the investigators could identify chromosomal regions that influence (i.e., show genetic linkage with) certain alcohol–related traits."

Given how fast genome and neuro sciences have developed since, I wouldn't be at all surprised to find even stronger evidence for the genetic link. Note that a genetic marker or link for any trait is science's way of saying: yes, we've found a link (or in this case, several). And of course, as we also know - or should know when reading any science of humans, having certain genetics for a trait in the one family is then subject to a host of other influences as we grow up.

dwtbd

For the sake of arugement let's assume the genetic trait exists(based on my view of these and similar studies I would agree there certainly seems to be corrolation ), what if anything does this mean about treatment or cure?

It is realistic to assume that this trait would be present in individuals worldwide and throughout different cultures , yes? What does this say about Mormon or Muslims, does this trait make them any more or less able to resist 'that first drink'?

Is this trait expressed in the absence of alcohol in the bloodstream? If so how?

Elseware

In my humble opinion, I don't care what they call addiction. Disease or otherwise. I just know I have it and I'm grateful some insurance companies help people seek treatment. I know that I am certain it's a genetic thing that is triggered by a dopamine feedback system ( my words ) that becomes unbalanced due to genetic factors.

jdooner

The Mormon and Muslin reference is weak. Its nature vs nurture. If you have genes that make you susceptible to alcoholism or addiction it does not mean that you will be activated. I lived in Utah for quit some time and know many addicts and alcoholics that were raised Mormon. They were activated. Others that might have the same genes but due to faith choose never to drink or drug never activate their disease/illness.

Let me throw in a curveball to the people on this forum dead set on the position that there is no genetic correlation of scientific proof of a disease. Why is it so important that to hold this unconventional view? To me it seems there is a level of arrogance in this view that might be part of the disease and illness - to be different, smarter than everyone?

I have come to a point where I don't care - whether there is or is not does not affect my wellbeing. I personally had been fighting my program and what I learned last week is this was due to a deep unconscious desire to hold on to the fact that I may be different and perhaps not an alcoholic - yes an addict but maybe not alcoholic. This mindset grew and then I got the rug pulled out with a massive obsession. I stayed sober but this lesson has convinced me I am an alcoholic and can never drink again whether its genetic or environmental it does not change the outcome.

So I for one am happy to acquiesce my point and surrender to others arguing against it being genetic. Does not matter and if it helps, you win - but I am sober and going to work my program.

caboblanco

So now it's part of the great far reaching alcoholism disease to have an unconventional view on a subject? Is that a new official symptom? I better get a new diagnosis. it's funny how you fail to see how arrogant it is to critricize someone for having a different view because in your mind it doesn't matter. Of course it matters. don't try to use your mind and be smart,,that would be arrogant....priceless

jazzfish

There is this recent study: A gene mutation for excessive alcohol drinking found, although it used rats has its subject.

More informative was the following comment discussing a related study in light of the study's findings:
"We examined these polymorphisms very carefully, using a variety of sophisticated techniques which allowed us to detect not only any individual SNP effects that may exist, but also any effects that may exist in aggregate, across multiple SNPs in a given GABA system gene, and even the combined effect of all the GABA system polymorphisms we studied put together!

We found that there was no consistent association between any GABA system polymorphisms, either individually or in aggregate, and any measure of alcohol use or alcohol-related psychopathology.

...

What's certain, however, is that in the long run any single polymorphism will not be a strong and reliable predictor of alcohol use and abuse in either rats or humans (with a very few notable exceptions, such as a polymorphism in the ALDH2 gene which can cripple the body's ability to metabolize alcohol, but which is only prevalent in East Asian populations).

After decades of candidate gene studies like these, and more recently genome-wide association studies, it has become absolutely clear that genetic influences upon alcohol use, abuse, and dependence, like nearly all complex behaviors, are the result of many, many polymorphisms, each of which has at most only a tiny individual effect, and, further, that these polymorphisms interact with each other and with the environment to produce alcohol-related behaviors. As a result, it is very difficult to consistently show that any single polymorphism is even associated with alcohol-related behaviors, much less strongly related and predictive of such behaviors." Comment here.

So there may be a genetic link to alcoholism, but it will not be a simple, direct, or easily predictable one.

It should be pointed out that the scientific process rarely proves things, but rather rejects or fails to reject stated hypotheses. When enough experiments support the hypothesis, it is then taken as fact; however, it has not been proven and may be discarded later in the face of new findings.

jdooner

No Cabo, I surrender the debate. I understand your point and you might be right and I may be wrong. I am okay with this. I was under the assumption that there is genetic correlation and this was/is fact. You have made me question this.

However, this is irrelevant to my process of recovery or getting better. The more I pushed back the more I was distancing myself and actually hurting myself. I saw this when my obsessions came back and its bc I pulled my own rug out from under me.

I can respect your process of trying to prove the null hypothesis by questioning the conventional. For me I don't have the stamina to keep up though. Thank you for the healthy debate.

Elseware

With all due respect to those posting here, I would like to ask what is the point of quibbling about all of this? Are you just having an intellectual exercise or is there some reason you need to be so specific about these definitions and diagnoses regarding addiction? I fail to see what difference it really makes in the end. If using addictive substances is causing difficulties in your life you either live (or die) with the difficulties or change your behavior. That is done in whatever way works for you. I guess some have to be very clear on the whys and wherefores of things as part of their recovery process (or not). I like to know these facts and opinions, too, and find the studies very interesting. But in the end I had to just stop taking Vicodin. I was steadily ruining my life. Now I'm better. Not my "old" self but at 100 days certainly a better self than I was then. That old self followed addictive behavior patterns her whole life. I'm now starting to recognize them by learning about the behavior. That's a step forward for me and I'll take it.

Joe Nerv

With all due respect, do you not realize you just did yourself what you're accusing everyone else of doing? Quibbling with the quibblers, which will probably only fuel more quibbling.