Why are we clean and sober and other's arent?
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Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Michigan
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Why are we clean and sober and other's arent?
The question I ask myself a lot is what separates the man who is dying from this disease and the man who is recovering from this disease. I know some will say well I decided to become honest open and willing. I think that frame of thought becomes dismissive of the countless men and women who have given an honest attempt at this program and have died from this disease. What has given me the gift of exposure to this program, and I would think it isn’t because my parents sent me to rehab at a young age. Why have I been exposed to this spiritual way of life known as twelve step recovery and a friend who I used with growing up has only known jails, dereliction, humiliation and suffering? You know a phrase I always heard was don’t leave before the miracle happens. What is this miracle? I feel I this miracle is the reason we are all here today, this miracle is reason there are 400 twelve step programs for almost every form of self inflicted human suffering there is.
A wise men once said the difference between a person in recovery for and the men and women dying of this disease is that I was willing to take an action that I didn’t believe in. Well what propelled you to take this action? What propelled me to go to rehab when every ounce of me wanted nothing to do with it, wanted nothing to do with getting clean and sober. I didn’t care about pleasing my family or the courts or making a success of my life. Something came over me that night that I was high again, trying to kill myself through an overdose, something came over me to go to the hospital and let them know I was trying to commit suicide with drugs. You see, it never entered my conscience mind that I’m going to attempt suicide, but the truth is I was trying to kill myself. I truly believe it was but for Grace that brought me to that hospital. It was Grace that had me in my first rehab. It was Grace that led me to take action that I didn’t believe in. Grace has come into my life and it is up to me not let it go. Grace is available to everyone, but we must accept it.
What are your thoughts on why are you trying to recover from this disease while others are dying from this disease?
A wise men once said the difference between a person in recovery for and the men and women dying of this disease is that I was willing to take an action that I didn’t believe in. Well what propelled you to take this action? What propelled me to go to rehab when every ounce of me wanted nothing to do with it, wanted nothing to do with getting clean and sober. I didn’t care about pleasing my family or the courts or making a success of my life. Something came over me that night that I was high again, trying to kill myself through an overdose, something came over me to go to the hospital and let them know I was trying to commit suicide with drugs. You see, it never entered my conscience mind that I’m going to attempt suicide, but the truth is I was trying to kill myself. I truly believe it was but for Grace that brought me to that hospital. It was Grace that had me in my first rehab. It was Grace that led me to take action that I didn’t believe in. Grace has come into my life and it is up to me not let it go. Grace is available to everyone, but we must accept it.
What are your thoughts on why are you trying to recover from this disease while others are dying from this disease?
Life the gift of recovery!
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Home is where the heart is
Posts: 7,061
This is actually a topic that my partner and I have discussed a lot over the years. When she was barely a year sober her older brother committed suicide in the depths of alcoholism. She has carried a lot of guilt over that event even though that was well over 10 years ago. I also have a sister who can not seem to get sober or gain any time in recovery before relapsing once again.
I don't know what the difference is. All I can do is speak for myself when I say that prior to finding recovery I no longer knew how to even mow my yard without having a cooler full of beer. Just simple tasks were beyond me. In the stories I have heard that is fairly common. I had really lost hope that there was any way to really live life and not drink. I had tried so many times on my own to quit and always wound up drinking again that I had pretty much decided that true sobriety and happiness was a pipe dream.
But that changed when I went to my first AA meeting. I have no idea what was said and can not even tell you other than myself and the person who took me to the meeting who was there but the one thing I still remember to this day is the feeling of hope that I walked out of there with. Hope that life could be lived and a person find happiness without drinking. Hope that life does get better. I found that hope through the faces and voices of the people in that room. That hope sustained me, kept me coming back, kept me following the directions given me, until I was able to gain the tools of the program and find recovery. I still can feel that hope today even when times are difficult.
My partner speaks of finding that hope as well. It seems to be a common theme of many who have found recovery. I have to wonder if somehow those that do not make it just were not able to find that hope. I say that because I am not special so why would my Higher Power choose to give me recovery and let someone else die. To me a Higher Power that makes those kinds of arbitrary decisions sounds rather callous and cruel and not one I can have faith in or trust. I just can't see it as God choosing me, instead I have to see it as I was at a place in life where I was able to still find hope and maybe others were at a place where they no longer could feel or find hope.
Anyway, that's my two cents worth.
I don't know what the difference is. All I can do is speak for myself when I say that prior to finding recovery I no longer knew how to even mow my yard without having a cooler full of beer. Just simple tasks were beyond me. In the stories I have heard that is fairly common. I had really lost hope that there was any way to really live life and not drink. I had tried so many times on my own to quit and always wound up drinking again that I had pretty much decided that true sobriety and happiness was a pipe dream.
But that changed when I went to my first AA meeting. I have no idea what was said and can not even tell you other than myself and the person who took me to the meeting who was there but the one thing I still remember to this day is the feeling of hope that I walked out of there with. Hope that life could be lived and a person find happiness without drinking. Hope that life does get better. I found that hope through the faces and voices of the people in that room. That hope sustained me, kept me coming back, kept me following the directions given me, until I was able to gain the tools of the program and find recovery. I still can feel that hope today even when times are difficult.
My partner speaks of finding that hope as well. It seems to be a common theme of many who have found recovery. I have to wonder if somehow those that do not make it just were not able to find that hope. I say that because I am not special so why would my Higher Power choose to give me recovery and let someone else die. To me a Higher Power that makes those kinds of arbitrary decisions sounds rather callous and cruel and not one I can have faith in or trust. I just can't see it as God choosing me, instead I have to see it as I was at a place in life where I was able to still find hope and maybe others were at a place where they no longer could feel or find hope.
Anyway, that's my two cents worth.
Keeping it simple!
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Surrey, BC
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I had a very hard time with the higher power when I first tried to quit. I relapsed over and over again. I relapsed because I did the samething over and over again. Which was nothing.
For me I realized that I had to change me in order to quit drinking. I am always aware that I will forever be an alcoholic and I had to accept that. I don't kid myself though, all it could take is one minute of crappy thinking to relapse again. One drink and I'm back where I started.
I pray I never do and you know, maybe there is a higher helping me thru this. Who knows? I just take it day by day and I've learned that it is okay for me to be happy and not have to do things just to please everyone else.
For me I realized that I had to change me in order to quit drinking. I am always aware that I will forever be an alcoholic and I had to accept that. I don't kid myself though, all it could take is one minute of crappy thinking to relapse again. One drink and I'm back where I started.
I pray I never do and you know, maybe there is a higher helping me thru this. Who knows? I just take it day by day and I've learned that it is okay for me to be happy and not have to do things just to please everyone else.
Laozi Old Man
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
Originally Posted by Alraihani 
A wise men once said the difference between a person in recovery for and the men and women dying of this disease is that I was willing to take an action that I didn’t believe in. Well what propelled you to take this action? What propelled me to go to rehab when every ounce of me wanted nothing to do with it, wanted nothing to do with getting clean and sober.
"Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."
(Matt 5:3)
Behold the power of NO
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: WA
Posts: 7,764
I would say it's probably our ability to be honest with ourselves and break down the walls of denial. Also caring enough about ourselves, I drank while knowing fully well I was an alcoholic because I had stopped giving a darn whether I lived or died.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Canada. About as far south as you can get
Posts: 4,768
"But for the Grace of God".
The last 3 lines in HOW IT WORKS says it best for me:
(a) That we were alcoholic and could not manage our own lives.
(b) That probably no human power could have relieved our alcoholism.
(c) That God could and would if He were sought.
Boleo said it quite well. It was the most unnatural thing that I could perceive of doing. And it works !!!
All the best.
Bob R
The last 3 lines in HOW IT WORKS says it best for me:
(a) That we were alcoholic and could not manage our own lives.
(b) That probably no human power could have relieved our alcoholism.
(c) That God could and would if He were sought.
Boleo said it quite well. It was the most unnatural thing that I could perceive of doing. And it works !!!
All the best.
Bob R
Member
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Gulf Coast, Florida USA
Posts: 5,731
Originally Posted by Alraihani
The question I ask myself a lot is what separates the man who is dying from this disease and the man who is recovering from this disease.
What are your thoughts on why are you trying to recover from this disease while others are dying from this disease?
What are your thoughts on why are you trying to recover from this disease while others are dying from this disease?
Because of it I stayed out there for years and years not admitting I needed help. I needed to hit a really, really low bottom. Jail 7 times, 5 detoxes,4 treatment centers, 5 psych wards, hospitals. suicide attempts and a nursing home.
I had to reevaulate that old mode of thinking and admit that is was screwy.
I still never get sick anymore, ever, I can't remember the last time I was sick. Cuz of that old thinking that I must be weak if I get sick.
I now realize that I don't have to be Superman anymore. Unfortunately my Dad passed that mode of thinking to my son and he is very prideful and won't ask for help with anything and I think it is sad cuz when someone asks for help they just may be helping the person they ask.
Grateful to be free
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Arizona
Posts: 3,680
Well...I don't think it has to do with me being more wonderful than the average bear. I am wondering if anyone who is not a theist is reading this thread by this time, but if you are *waves*. I am not a theist. I do use 12 step. I don't believe I was saved by anything supernatural.
Biology. Evolution. Some of us are predisposed to addiction. Some of us also have the propensity to use other brain functions to over come addiction. Some don't have that talent/ability. Even the BB acknowledges that some do NOT have the capacity to be honest enough to overcome this. Don't know if it is just the capacity for honesty, but I agree. once caught up in deadly substance abuse, some people do NOT have what it takes to get free. The only way we find this out is by applying ourselves assiduously to getting clean and staying clean and not giving up.
Yes, I do think there are such things as hopeless cases. Harsh huh? I am SO glad that I am not one, but I had my doubts for a very very long time. But somewhere in my addled brain I still had the ability to hope, strive, etc. I'm here. Others are not, maybe they never will be, maybe their "switch" hasn't gone off yet that will bring them to recovery. Some people never went into addiction in the first place.
Some may call this luck, others grace, others the wages of sin, etc. I think it's chemistry, the way the Universe operates, biology, evolution.
Some people won't recover because they don't hear hope, don't find a way out, they COULD recover if they had reasonable availability and support...just like treatment for any other biological condition. Had I not had access to medical care at numerous junctures in my life, I'd be dead now.
Other people wouldn't recover anyway, because, unfortunately that is how biology sometimes works. The Dr walks up, shakes her head and says "we did all we could, I'm so sorry".
Many of us, even with a very grim medical diagnosis would continue to seek treatment, a cure and try all methods available no matter the so called odds. I suggest people try the same with recovery.
There will always be those that will avoid even admitting there is a problem, be it physical or mental/emotional. People die of physical illness all the time because they shrugged off the seriousness, or didn't get help in time. I think it's the same with addiction.
Biology. Evolution. Some of us are predisposed to addiction. Some of us also have the propensity to use other brain functions to over come addiction. Some don't have that talent/ability. Even the BB acknowledges that some do NOT have the capacity to be honest enough to overcome this. Don't know if it is just the capacity for honesty, but I agree. once caught up in deadly substance abuse, some people do NOT have what it takes to get free. The only way we find this out is by applying ourselves assiduously to getting clean and staying clean and not giving up.
Yes, I do think there are such things as hopeless cases. Harsh huh? I am SO glad that I am not one, but I had my doubts for a very very long time. But somewhere in my addled brain I still had the ability to hope, strive, etc. I'm here. Others are not, maybe they never will be, maybe their "switch" hasn't gone off yet that will bring them to recovery. Some people never went into addiction in the first place.
Some may call this luck, others grace, others the wages of sin, etc. I think it's chemistry, the way the Universe operates, biology, evolution.
Some people won't recover because they don't hear hope, don't find a way out, they COULD recover if they had reasonable availability and support...just like treatment for any other biological condition. Had I not had access to medical care at numerous junctures in my life, I'd be dead now.
Other people wouldn't recover anyway, because, unfortunately that is how biology sometimes works. The Dr walks up, shakes her head and says "we did all we could, I'm so sorry".
Many of us, even with a very grim medical diagnosis would continue to seek treatment, a cure and try all methods available no matter the so called odds. I suggest people try the same with recovery.
There will always be those that will avoid even admitting there is a problem, be it physical or mental/emotional. People die of physical illness all the time because they shrugged off the seriousness, or didn't get help in time. I think it's the same with addiction.
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Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Melbourne, Victoria Australia
Posts: 1,202
thanks to the OP for the question....
Threshold had a reasonable (emphasis on reason) stab at some kind of answer, much of which I agree with.
Overall though, to me, the question is not unlike that old chestnut : 'does God exist?' or 'why do we suffer?' i.e. the kinds of questions which have plagued humankind for the past several thousand years.
All I 'know' is: I don't 'know' the answer.
Threshold had a reasonable (emphasis on reason) stab at some kind of answer, much of which I agree with.
Overall though, to me, the question is not unlike that old chestnut : 'does God exist?' or 'why do we suffer?' i.e. the kinds of questions which have plagued humankind for the past several thousand years.
All I 'know' is: I don't 'know' the answer.
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Join Date: May 2012
Location: canada
Posts: 7,242
I am wondering if anyone who is not a theist is reading this thread by this time, but if you are *waves*.
yes, here i am, non-theist, still reading. waving back.
have wondered about this, too. don't know the answer; if i did, i'd give it to everyone, of course. it's why people proselytize when they think they know.
it sounds so stuuuupid, but in a real way, it was a moment of clarity, seeing that i was a drunk. and that being a drunk was what i had left to bring, to others, the world and myself. when i really got that, i knew i could stop.
and it's not that i hadn't understood that i had alcohol-problems before that. i knew that for eons.
but i somehow saw it had to do with knowing who i AM. and once i knew, i couldn't drink anymore. sounds simple, and it was, in that way.
do i think everyone can have that moment? no idea. maybe we all have them and some shove them away. and others grab them and take it from there. don't know if they can be "produced", either. i.e. purposely made to be seen.
if i knew, i'd be writing the book, quitting my day-job.
i do think of it in terms of a moment of grace, but if i take that farther, i get muddled, so i don't
. except in moments.
yes, here i am, non-theist, still reading. waving back.
have wondered about this, too. don't know the answer; if i did, i'd give it to everyone, of course. it's why people proselytize when they think they know.
it sounds so stuuuupid, but in a real way, it was a moment of clarity, seeing that i was a drunk. and that being a drunk was what i had left to bring, to others, the world and myself. when i really got that, i knew i could stop.
and it's not that i hadn't understood that i had alcohol-problems before that. i knew that for eons.
but i somehow saw it had to do with knowing who i AM. and once i knew, i couldn't drink anymore. sounds simple, and it was, in that way.
do i think everyone can have that moment? no idea. maybe we all have them and some shove them away. and others grab them and take it from there. don't know if they can be "produced", either. i.e. purposely made to be seen.
if i knew, i'd be writing the book, quitting my day-job.
i do think of it in terms of a moment of grace, but if i take that farther, i get muddled, so i don't
. except in moments. 12 Step Recovered Alcoholic
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 6,613
I have no doubt I simply missed the point for a long time. My alcoholic life was the only normal one, I knew no other. Luckily I survived the down hill slide, many don't, and I reached a point of total despair. AA was my last resort, all other avenues had failed, and even then I did not believe AA would work for me, but my options were limited. carry on to the bitter end or swallow my falsely based pride and accept spiritual help.
Perhaps those that don't recover miss the point, maybe they couldn't be honest, perhaps pride got in the way, perhaps they never realised the seriousness of their situation. Maybe they had a desire but it was conditional on some other factor, perhaps they were never told how to recover. Having lost the power of choice in alcohol perhaps they wrongly excercised their only remaining choice, to do whatever it takes to recover or not.
Who can really answer this? Who, in their right mind, would knowingly and willingly march to an inevitable and awful alcoholic death?
Perhaps those that don't recover miss the point, maybe they couldn't be honest, perhaps pride got in the way, perhaps they never realised the seriousness of their situation. Maybe they had a desire but it was conditional on some other factor, perhaps they were never told how to recover. Having lost the power of choice in alcohol perhaps they wrongly excercised their only remaining choice, to do whatever it takes to recover or not.
Who can really answer this? Who, in their right mind, would knowingly and willingly march to an inevitable and awful alcoholic death?
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Eastern Us
Posts: 1,366
Why did I get sober and do many others can't, I really do t know. I do think that having the privilege to be born with the resorses that are available both here locally and on the Internet really helped me. Talking with the many people that have recovered with or without AA or other specific programs helped lots. With that information I set out to find what would work for me and I found it.
Also at some point I had a fundamental shift on how I viewed alcohol. I began to think of it as a poison. I began to feel extremely lucky that I woke up to see that I wasn't depriving myself of something wonderful by not drinking. I felt greatful that I never had to put that stuff into my body again. And now when I watch people drink that stuff I feel no envy whatsoever, I feel pity that they are still stuck in the pitcher plant.
Also at some point I had a fundamental shift on how I viewed alcohol. I began to think of it as a poison. I began to feel extremely lucky that I woke up to see that I wasn't depriving myself of something wonderful by not drinking. I felt greatful that I never had to put that stuff into my body again. And now when I watch people drink that stuff I feel no envy whatsoever, I feel pity that they are still stuck in the pitcher plant.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 37
I went to AA meetings regularly for 3 years and always fell off the wagon. The pressure of doing "steps" and having to find a "higher power" and a sponsor who was almost nuts with AA made me hate it and I would start drinking again... I'm not religious and will never believe in a higher power so I was doomed to fail.
This time around I did it with AVRT and man it is working! I don't even think about drinking as it is not a daily worry and guilt trip like the pressure of calling my sponsor and going to AA meetings was. I was bored and all I did was stare at the clock and hope they didn't call on me. I mumbled through the "Our Father" because I thought I had to pretend I am religious.
This time around I did it with AVRT and man it is working! I don't even think about drinking as it is not a daily worry and guilt trip like the pressure of calling my sponsor and going to AA meetings was. I was bored and all I did was stare at the clock and hope they didn't call on me. I mumbled through the "Our Father" because I thought I had to pretend I am religious.
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