keithj

Irresistible is the key word here.

Norther

This is probably an acceptable topic for an online forum, but talking about who is or is not a "real" alcoholic would I think be profoundly irresponsible at an AA meeting, feeding as it would into the denial mechanism of so many newbies. To the extent then that SR is an AA meeting, I'm afraid I feel the same way. I have to say too that some of you are sounding oddly prideful about the really real realness of your real alcoholism. That's the last input I'll have on this thread, and the last I'll read of it. It's the first thread I've felt negatively about here on SR. I don't mean to be rancorous, and I feel no ad hominem resentment at all, but this thread is really bothering me. So I'm gone. Genuinely sorry for any offense.

spryte

When i hear about 'real alcoholics' and other? types of alcoholics my thought process is thus:

1. There are types?
2. I'm probably the pansy type.
3. Hey, maybe I'm not an alcoholic!
4. Yes, I am. I just know I am.
5. I'm grateful that I went to AA when I did. Who knows where I'd be 10 years from now if I didn't go?
6. Alcoholism can be a real horror show. I hope people get help.

kurtrambis

I think a real alcoholic is someone who is either (preferably both):

1. was always going to be an alcoholic no matter what happens in their life or their mental health

2. can only get sober through AAs 12 steps

I personally doubt both above exist but that's my opinion.

kurtrambis

I'm struggling at the moment, if I was to do the 12 steps would I have apologise to people for being shy?
I know shyness is selfish but I'm not a bad person. Is god really punishing me for being shy?
Am I really a bad person because I crave alcohol?

43395

I firm ,NO is the answer to your question, morality is nothing to do with alcohol-ISM, as itssays in,'The Doctors Opinion', in the Big Book, alcoholics have a physycal allergy to alcohol which medical science now equates to what I describe when I first posted this thread,Mike W.

Boleo

There is nothing wrong with being shy. In some Eastern cultures it is considered a form of modesty and humility which are both virtues.

However, if you are an alcoholic you can not afford to isolate. To isolate is to be alone with your thoughts which is not a good thing for a alcoholic.

Toronto68

This thread is really perplexing. It came out with the rancour that was predicted really early on. I don't get it.

Addiction is a moth-flame thing. I don't see it as an absence of choice, more like an inability to use it (and probably an inability to perceive it, since we become experts at stifling regret on our way into the store, where we will concoct a reason for buying it yet again) - it's going back, buying more, having more, one day hating yourself for it, but having more, and maybe getting completely burned up if the person does not stop. Why this turns into a contest (we know there are many kinds of them) is a mystery to me. There is a PULL to the substance and I can't break down into distinguishable entities which experience is "real" and which experience is "other than real" as though this were composite and non-composite numbers, and we are seeing a discussion here about which column the word choice falls under. The PULL is the constant to me, and we get either any variation of some of what the flame will do to the moth (and repair ourselves in a range of health states) OR we get all that the flame can do to the moth (and die).

Maybe my relish for debate will enable me to change later on, and if I go back to reading the Big Book (_Alcoholics Anonymous_), that might increase my interest in dissecting this. But now, and over the course of several clicks to check in this thread, I don't grasp what the contention is here.

Toronto68

Kurt, your question about shyness troubles me. Where are you getting the idea that you are being punished and what is the form of punishment? It sounds like you are condeming yourself and that makes me unhappy.

artsoul

Interesting "discussion" .....I prefer the model of "stages" of the same disease, because that makes sense to me. I thought about this and thought about it because I like a good debate, but there have been times when it was all about winning or "being right" so I'm trying to not go there right now. Anyway, the conclusion that I came to is that my alcoholism is REAL ENOUGH to me, so all the rest is academics......

Mark75

I see the contention on a couple of levels. The first would be the presence or absence of choice... You may say that one has a choice but there is an inability to use it reliably.... I may say that since I can't use my choice reliably and consistently then I don't really have a choice. And since I can't reliability use that choice correctly, I'll relinquish it... But we are really talking about the same thing, mostly.

Then on another level, the way I see it, and I may be wrong, is that there are a couple of ego issues involved... such as... WTF do you mean you don't have a choice, everyone has a choice to drink or not... that's a cop out!! We all have free will and we can choose to use it to drink or not drink. In other words, own your choices, after all, you made them.... And a side issue is that we should all be strong enough to make the right choice... Be strong, man up... ya know?

But for those who choose 12 step recovery, there is the whole surrender and turning one's will over to a higher power... This approach collides head on with those who do battle with their alcoholism and find the will to not drink.

Obviously I choose 12 step recovery, so my observations may be biased, but any criticism of either viewpoint that may be seen as having been implied... is not intended.

I find this topic relevant and fascinating, because the choices we've made, got us here, and they are kind of at the center of it all. Please be thoughtful, everyone, we are on the same journey, just different paths...

Peace
Mark

kurtrambis

If anybody remembers my posts I'm a critic of aspects of AA, strangely perhaps I have no problem with the powerlessness idea.
When I don't sleep eat drink water or wash properly and all want to do is get my next drink that's powerlessness.