murrill

I got sober via inpatient treatment in 1988, and proponents of the disease concept were legion. I embraced it wholeheartedly, and it was the first step in forgiving myself for letting things get so out of hand. I was appalled by people who did not accept it as an explanation for alcoholism! Over time I have modified my belief system: While I agree that alcoholism certainly has features of disease, i. e. it is progressive, it has predictable signs and symptoms, and it may be terminal if left untreated, I think that oversimplifies a very complex conditon. This is where the nature vs. nurture debate emerges.
Over time I have come to believe that any number of explanations may be useful for a person who seeks sobriety. For me a scientific explanation held water, and it was my springboard into recovery. Some people, especially those of religious orientation, might accept the "moral failing" argument, and a return to church may be effective.
In the end, I'm not sure if it matters at all whether it is a disease or a moral failing or simply self-will run riot, but I do think it is important for the alcoholic to commit to something.

ElegantlyWasted

Thanks Murrill. You summed it up for me in that there are may ways to skin the proverbial cat (don't take me literally I have two) and what works best for any individual should be accepted and respected. There really are so many variable that come into play... Genetic, social, specific drinking patterns etc.

preta

While I did skim some of the previous posts, there is one crucial element I didnt see here. I am myself an alcoholic of the hopeless variety, and my hopelessness led me to use other drugs addictively after some time. My behaviours were MUCH different while drinking than they were when using crack or heroin. My character defects manifested themselves in much different ways. The point I want to make is that the AA literature, specifically the big book, addresses behaviours and thought patterns that seem more alcoholic. I havent read the NA basic text in awhile, but it seems to me that a person who is purely a drug addict trying to get sober in AA with AA literature and an AA sponsor is doing themselves a great disservice. Herein lies the difference IMO.

43395

The name of the disease is alcohol-ISM, the alcohol is a symptom, the -ISMs, otherwise known as life are the problem.
Equally so if you are a ,'real alcoholic', like me(see the Big Book) the one thing that alchol will do for you no matter where you are or whatever your circumstances it will instantly make everything alright. To suggest that alcoholism is a myth is like the disease itself,'an illness of ignorance'.

"When the pupil is ready, the teacher appears, an old Buddhist saying,saleh.

sluggo

Well...AA has a 'singleness of purpose'...they treat alcoholism. So, though I am an addict...I identify myself in the rooms of AA as an alcoholic simply because I respect the home I'm in. There is a reason for this because in the early years of AA...they opened their doors to everyone...addicts of all varieties...and it didn't work. so...they stuck to their primary purpose....alcoholism.

Some meetings don't care how you identify yourself....and those that stick to the traditions do care. I wouldn't assume that they feel 'superior' to addicts....perhaps they think your needs would be better met in another fellowship.

(and...the Big Book of AA speaks often of 'alcoholic addiction'.)

peace
janice

sluggo

I couldn't disagree more. I am primarily a drug addict...and, I got clean/sober in the rooms of AA. I identify completely with everything in the Big Book.

If I found NA in my area to be as strong as AA...I would have attended NA. regretfully, that's not the case. NA in my area tends to live in the problem...not the solution. just my experience.

peace
janice

Peter

:horse

CAPTAINZING2000

I was anything that would get me ****** up. Anything to change the way I felt

littlefish

I think this nails it: what I notice time and time again is that NA people whose primary problem is drugs, not alcohol, find their way to the rooms of AA out of need. I know in my area, a suburban area outside of the city, there simply are not enough NA meetings in enough communities and enough days of the week to provide enough support to people who might be needing for example, one meeting a day.

This is a tough and unresolved issue in the rooms of AA, because it states quite clearly in the bb that membership is open to anyone who wants to stop drinking.
I wonder what the creators of the fellowship would say today when our rooms are filling up with narcotic users. I for one say however: welcome.

I know my point of view is not shared by all, but my personal feeling is that if a narcotic addict shares about the 12 steps without mentioning the DOC...they can be of great help and support and find help and support in AA.

Gypsy Feet

I always love it when one of the old guys in my room is sharing about how much booze had ruined his life and then busts out with "the massive amounts of cocaine I was doing wasn't helping" haha. We are suppose to look for the similarities not the differences no? I have never been arrested, lost a job, lost a house, drank in the am, had the shakes. I "tried" to quit once, and I am still on attempt one, 16 months in. I hope it sticks. So while I don't always relate to the tales of the people who have had the "lower bottoms", or the relapsers, I hear my story anyway and listen for things I can use. Our meeting has so many poly-substance addicts, it just doesn't matter in my group. My thinking is, if you were addicted to alcohol you probably have a predisposition that could get you into trouble with other substances if you aren't vigilant. I know lots of people who went back out after starting up a narcotic prescribed by their doctors.

I have used most substances under the sun and abused quite a few. I go to meetings to help me live a sober (which to me also means clean) life, and in hopes that I might help someone else do the same.

keithj

One simple solution, just like it was done back when NA started, is to get recovered through the 12 Steps with an AA sponsor, and then go provide some solution in the NA meetings. Grow the fellowship you seek.

You can read Bill W.'s take on this in the AA pamphlet, Problems Other than Alcohol. Ought to be required reading for any AA member. Then we can all be informed and unified in our common solution.

Boleo

http://www.aa.org/pdf/products/p-35_...anAlcohol1.pdf

Peter

Heck, if i had only known this back in my drinking days, I could have used it whenever I got pulled over.

" No I am not intoxicated, officer *hic* and it is a myth that i am an alcoholic...*hic*

KittyP

Surely there are some pretty unique problems with recovering from alcohol addiction that don't really apply to other drugs. You will never absentmindedly wander into the herion/meth/crack section of the supermarket and find yourself surrounded by shelf after shelf of narcotics. You will never be watching tv and see several adverts telling you how great drugs are and what special offer they are selling for this week. You won't have someone pass the crack pipe around the office at the end of a day where a deal goes well. You won't have your nice respectable friends come over to dinner and share a IV needle with your partner over a Sunday roast. You won't watch most of the characters of all the tv shows you enjoy share a casually few lines in the same way that everyone on tv sucks back beer.

Dealing with addiction to a substance which is not only socially acceptable but very much encouraged is different to being addicted to something which is illegal and only used in limited areas.

preta

Yup thats what I was getting at. Also, alcohol doesnt *usually* keep you up until well after sunrise peeking out the window ready to flee from the imaginary police. The thought patterns and cravings for alcohol were much different than they were for cocaine for me too. My point was the big book was written specifically to deal with alcohol. If you are just a drug addict, why not use the book that was written specifically for that? I understand what some people are saying about NA...I used to go here and I didnt care for it either. There are a couple good meetings tho. The fellowship isnt gonna keep you clean anyway. Thats what the steps are for.

Norther

I go to AA meetings to stay sober. I learn from others who are there for the same reason. If there are others there for some other reason - the court required it, it's a warm place, they're in the grip of some kind of delusion, whatever - I don't give a s**t. As long as there is a decent quorum of drunks there, I can get what I need.

Some drunks take pills or smoke or snort stuff. So what? I did too. I ended up with alcohol, as so many do.

I was reading 12/12 yesterday, and it's clear there that Bill W wanted this thing to be OPEN to whoever felt they needed it. That's good enough for me.

Mark75

In terms of how you feel about who attends AA, whether it's dope or alcohol, I don't much mind either, others may.... However, I am not sure Bill W wanted this thing OPEN... check out the AA pamphlet "Problems Other Than Alcohol"... you can get it online or at a meeting... He's pretty clear about it being a fellowship and program for alcoholics.

Gotta respect that.

Mark

Norther

Well, OK. I don't have the book with me, but I thought he specifically mentioned someone with a pill problem and even that those without an addiction problem could benefit from the steps.

It doesn't matter, though. I know why I go, and I get what I need there. I can't relate to everyone who speaks, but there are enough there to whom I can relate - most of them straightup alcoholics, I grant you - that I can get what I need. I am certainly not going to cop a resentment because somebody is there for a reason other than mine. I think that AA is almost weirdly robust and can absorb a little abuse.

I would worry, I suppose, if there started to develop some kind of shortage of alcoholics, but that doesn't seem to be a problem, alas.

I could be totally wrong, I recognize, sitting here with my 6 1/2 days of sobriety. LOL.

Mark75

No question about it, many can benefit from the steps. For reasons that a particular individual may or may not understand, or agree with, AA is for alcoholics. That is the tradition and history of AA and since it works pretty good, why change it?

BTW Norther... This is a topic that comes up quite often here... Stick around long enough and you'll hear all sides. It's easiest to just accept the traditions for what they are and not try to fix what ain't broke ... IMO

Great going on your early sobriety... It gets better!! Nice to have you here on SR!!

Mark

Norther

Thanks for welcoming me. I do understand your point of view, and I am pretty conservative by inclination in most matters. Tradition three in 12/12 does seem to refer to a "cross addicted" person who showed up in year two of AA, caused consternation, then thrived and benefited others by his presence. I'm sure, of course, that textual evidence can be adduced on the other side. It doesn't, as I say, matter to me much at this point: I'm just grateful that AA is there for me. Thanks again.