Boleo

OK, I digress. SR members are:


Recalcitrant (noun)

* Main Entry: re·cal·ci·trant
* Pronunciation: \-trənt\
* Function: adjective
* Etymology: Late Latin recalcitrant-, recalcitrans, present participle of recalcitrare to be stubbornly disobedient, from Latin, to kick back, from re- + calcitrare to kick, from calc-, calx heel
* Date: 1843

1 : obstinately defiant of authority or restraint
2 a : difficult to manage or operate b : not responsive to treatment c : resistant <this subject is recalcitrant both to observation and to experiment

synonyms - see Unruly

bugsworth

I don't know if members of SR are recalcitrant...that is your judgement not mine.

Boleo

The prosecution rests it's case.

bugsworth

More likely the case was thrown out for lack of evidence! LOL

Pilgrim

Sorry I'm late to reply to your welcome "non objection" to me saying how I recovered.

The first thing was that I had to admit deep inside myself that I couldn't manage and that no human power seemed to be able to help me. When I started to drink, a craving would kick in and I would drink more than I intended (like WAY more and for hours). Then I had to admit that when I decided I needed to stop (cos of the craving that happened nearly every time when I started) that I couldn't stay stopped. I had to get really honest about that because I used to tell myself that a few days away from booze was stopping.

You see I had a problem and my problem was that I was powerless due to an enzyme in my liver that interfered with my "off switch" once I started drinking. Then, if I tried to stop on my own, I would get uptight, anxious and restless until I drank again. There seemed no way out. Doctors couldn't help and pills just lead me back to booze.

The only way I found out about that was by lots of experiments at trying to control my drinking. Alcoholic torture showed me that I had no choice about whether or not I drank and no control when I started.

If you think that you can manage (choice and control) your drinking then you are either not an alcoholic or you are an alcoholic who will not admit it.

Non alcoholics don't try to manage their drinking though. They just do it without trying.

I find it disrespectful of my disease when people imply I have the power of choice over whether I drink or not and when people say I should be able to control my drinking once I start. If I had the choice and I could control it then I wouldn't be an alcoholic! I would just stop - no problem. Relapse prevention really pisses me off. If I could prevent a relapse on my own do you think I wouldn't have done that!!!???? Sheesh.

Anyway - that's what I had to admit. It was a real bummer. But it was the first thing I needed to do to start on my road to being recovered.

Let me know if you want to know what I did after that....

socialismislost

If it is a program of attraction, you would not need to carry the message to anybody. Do you see the cognitive dissonance? By the way. I looked into the SMART recovery, and guess what. there is not ONE group in my city(pittsburgh) hundreds of AA meetings though. hmmmm

Boleo

Cognitive Dissonance is precisely the "Double Bind" that I described above.

On the one hand tradition 11 says AA is a program of attraction rather than promotion.

On the other hand step 12 says "we try to carry this message to alcoholics".
I can't do the 12th step without being at least a little bit assertive. I also found the 5th, 6th and 7th ninth step promise came true for me in spite of the fact that I never wanted them in the first palce:

"No matter how far down the scale we have gone, we will see how our experience can benefit others. That feeling of uselessness and self-pity will disappear. We will lose interest in selfish things and gain interest in our fellows. Self-seeking will slip away. "

The main reason that I know for certain that the promises are real, is because some of them are contrary to my wants and desires. If the promises were just a figment of my imagination (as some people claim) why can't I pick and choose which ones I get?

In other words; not only am I better person as a result of working the steps: I am a better person than I ever wanted to be as a result of working the steps. Some days I wish I could go back to being the self-centered hedonist that I used to be. It seems like it would please more people if I were. The paradox is God pleasing is not the same as people pleasing.

-All quotes from Alcoholics Anonymous 1st Edition -

Ago

AA's message is carried by word of mouth for the most part, after many years it has entered the mainstreams consciousness, because it is effective for those who want it, and those who actually "work" the program, like Boleo says 'Do this like this and you get this" and the overwhelming experience of those who actually "do this like this DO get this" which we call "the promises"

AA would have failed decades upon decades ago if it wasn't effective for those with the Honest desire to get sober and it didn't keep it's "promises" to those who actually worked the steps.

Every year Hollywood will release a movie they call a "sleeper" in that the initial advertising budget was very small, but there is a groundswell caused by 'word of mouth" as opposed to advertising, last year it was "Slumdog Millionaire" a small low budget foreign film that went on to be a smash success and even win an Oscar.

The movie got huge because it was a great film and strictly because of word of mouth.

AA's movement is like that, could there be 100's (if not 1000's) of meetings in your area simply because it works? I can't think of any other reason, especially since no one makes money from AA, it's not like it's a pyramid scheme or some giant corporation, it's just one alcoholic talking to another.

The amusing thing to me about the so called "Treatment Industry" is ultimately 99.9% of them recommend attendance at AA meetings upon release.

I bought my Big Book for 5 bucks, although the truth is, if I would have been broke, they would have given it to me for free, some pay upwards of $10,000.oo for theirs by going through rehab.

Some needed rehab, I don't knock anyone for going, but I do it for free and I do it for fun, and I do it because it works, when it said I would recover from a hopeless condition of mind and body if I did a few simple things and I did them, it worked.

Of course there are the AA Bashers that will say something different, but I noticed none of them actually worked the steps, which is what "The Program' of AA really is, some even attended meetings, but attending meetings is like sticking feathers up yer rump then claiming to be a chicken. Attendance at meetings actually has nothing to do with the actual program of AA.

socialismislost

Actually, its not suprising at all that there are 100's of AA meetings and zero of anything else. 99% of the time its court mandated, and since DUI laws are very lucrative to both the justice system and the treatment industry, its no suprise they are basically the only game in town. Interestingly enough, both the treatment industry and the court system know AA has no scientific proven effectiveness, hence the huge numbers of people that revolve in and out of the system and AA. Im not going to go into whether AA is different than wany other approach, but I think Im one of many who tire at the continued noise about how its the only way, about how if you dont "work" the program, its your fault. That the steps are the only way.

Boleo

In the early days of AA there were few enough members that if you wanted to know what the "proven effectiveness" rate was all you had to do was get a list of names and go place a visit to each one on the list and verify whether or not they were staying sober. This is something that Clarence Snyder and a few newspaper reporters actually did.

Of course in those days everyone in AA;

1. Was a low-bottom drunk
2. Was there voluntarily
3. Had a sponsor
4. Worked the steps
5. Worked with other alcoholics

IMO today's membership is revolving in and out of the system because they are not desperate enough to "thoroughly follow our path"

Many are Court ordered and merely want to recovery their STUFF (license, job, spouse, ect...). If you were to use short-term goals as a benchmark the success rate might be something like the 50 - 75% rate that it once was measured to be.

Today most members go to enough meetings, do enough work, practice enough principles to meet their short-term goal. They then go back to their old-ways of living and drinking till they lose more STUFF then return for another round of "just enough" work to meet their next short-term goal.

This goes on and on for years till they either;

a) Give up
b) Die
c) Get serious enough to work the program

Ago

Why is it not surprising there is nothing else? Don't you think if other things worked as well they'd have meetings too? Do you think the court system makes $$$ off sending people to AA?

I have NEVER ever said it's the only way, I FREQUENTLY say there are many paths up the mountain, many paths to sobriety, this is just a way that happens to work.

Well if you don't "work" the program, then the program doesn't "work" for you, who's fault is it?

Yours or the program's?

So many people don't 'work" the program then they start blathering on about DUI laws, court ordered people, the only game in town, and failure rates etc which quite frankly have nothing at all to do with whether AA works or not.

Please cite your sources about 99% of the time it's court ordered

99% of the people in the rooms are there by court order? 99% of the time you have been to meetings it has been court ordered? please specify what your 99% signifies and then cite your sources.

I could care less what route someone takes to sobriety, as long as they find it ya know?

socialismislost

Ive been to dozens of meetings at various locations. I counted the numbers of people an the number of slips in the basket. The Majority of those meetings there were almost equal amounts of people and slips to be signed. There were a few people there who were obviously old timers. I could quickly take apart AA in less than a paragraph, but I will respect other's programs. Ive read lots of threads on here and many devolve into how AA is the only way with the requisite cheerleading. I will say this however, that if AA worked, why the need to keep coming back? And if its because people need to work the program until the day they die, they never really are recovered, are they? Id personally rather spend time looking for a cure, instead of endless recovery and treatment.

And that goes for most of medicine these days. Most money goes to treatment after treatment. Precious little actually goes into finding cures for diseases because there is no money in that.

Ago

I will have to respectfully agree to disagree, absolutely, with everything you say, on all fronts, but also would like to state that I wish you the best in your search on your path to sobriety, thank you for not "taking apart AA in a paragraph" that was really very kind of you /grin

Take care

Take care and hopefully when we meet again it's on the same side of an issue.

socialismislost

I like respectful debate as well. Thank you for your thoughts as I too hope for sobriety one day. We may not agree, but I would defend your right to express yourself any day of the week.

herennow

A great debate ending nicely....

Whew! GRIN...

Ago

Wait...you're not sober????

Dammit, I didn't even bust out with the ad hominem and straw man attacks and arguments

BS aside, I agree with you, I like a good respectful debate and agree with also defending YOUR right to a different POV, if you ever need anything please feel free to PM me.

Good luck, I know how tough this can be, Vaya con Dios

Boleo

For those of us who call ourselves "recovered" our need to work the program is no longer an issue. The program becomes a way of life that we "want to work". When I say I am "recovered" what I am saying is - I drink as much as I want to. I simply don't want ANY.

When what I need is in perfect alignment with what I want:

"We feel as though we had been placed in a position of neutrality - safe and protected. We have not even sworn off. Instead, the problem has been removed. It does not exist for us. We are neither cocky nor are we afraid. That is our experience. That is how we react so long as we keep in fit spiritual condition."

- All quotes from Alcoholics Anonymous 1st Edition -

socialismislost

"For those of us who call ourselves "recovered" our need to work the program is no longer an issue. The program becomes a way of life that we "want to work". When I say I am "recovered" what I am saying is - I drink as much as I want to. I simply don't want ANY.

Recovered, recovery, recovering, pick any one you like. If working the program is no longer an issue, why continue to work it? You contradict yourself.

You next sentence is more like it. It becomes a way of life. You become addicted to recovery instead of drinking. You have just switched addictions to something you feel is positive and works for you. Instead of going out and getting hammered every day, you go out to meetings; its a fellowship and the friends you make in those rooms Im sure is a big part of it. You are replacing drinking friends with sober friends.

I dont want to work a program. Do diabetics need to "work a 12 step spiritual program"? How about cancer patients? I want to work finding a cure to the disease instead. Im not religious. Im not spiritual. Never will be.

And your last statement really says it all. You can't drink as much as you want, as if you could you would go out immediately and do it. You have convinced yourself that you dont want any. That is not the same thing as being able to drink as much as you want. Cognitive dissonance really plays a huge part, its the reason for the numerous cliches and one-liners in AA. Its also the reason for CBT/DBT programs that try and rationalize that you no longer want to drink. It doesnt mean you are recovered or recovering or cured. You still have the disease of addiction.

Dee74

I hope you find sobriety too, one day Soc.
Attacking and arguing other recovery methods isn't going to get you there though.

Focus on what will or what might work for you, rather what doesn't - it's a far better use of your time IMO.

D

socialismislost

Thanks Dee74, I saw you were promoted too. Congrats.

I will find sobriety the day science finds a cure, just like polio and many other diseases that have been cured. I didnt bring up any type of recovery method, though. I will defend my point of view, just as I will also defend others who bring a point of view I dont agree with. They have as much a right to speak out and tell what works for them as anybody else.

Im not an island, and others on here may believe in "spirituality", or "CBT/DBT". I say for now whatever works for them is always a good thing.

I know what will work for me, and that is searching and using my knowledge and background to work towards a cure. Believe it or not, I have a background and a degree and working on another. Research is always a good thing.

What I choose to do with my time is my business, but I do appreciate your response and concern.