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The “unbreakable promise” - for all practical purposes

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The “unbreakable promise” - for all practical purposes

Old 04-03-2018, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by fini View Post
promising that4 will never be a prime number is a category mistake.
Yes fini, thank you. There is nothing to promise about 4 not being a prime.

What if there is also nothing to promise about anyone’s capacity to make an irreversible pledge to never drink/drug again? I have done it. Even if every other human brain that learns of my pledge believes it must be reversible, that doesn’t mean that it is reversible, because there’s no way anyone can prove that my pledge is reversible.

I wonder if “I promise that GT’s Big Plan is reversible.” could also be a category error?
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Old 04-03-2018, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by esinger View Post
This all seems confusing and over complicated. I guess it's debate for the sake of debate. I was always good at over analyzing everything to death and stressing myself out over the unimportant details. That's one reason I drank and had a hard time initially with getting sober and recovery programs.
I finally realized that sobriety is not that complicated. I just don't drink. The consequences far out weigh any short term enjoyment or high. I don't need to make any promises, plans or prayers. Now it may not have always seemed that way, but it really is that easy.... at least at this point in my life.
Whatever keeps you happy and healthy!
If you focus on this short paragraph from the OP, hopefully it will not seem so confusing:

Originally Posted by GerandTwine (part of OP)
Why would it ever be important to emphasize that a person wanting to end problematic drinking cannot make an unbreakable promise to never drink again, when FOR ALL PRACTICAL PURPOSES, it is patently obvious that he or she CAN make that exact promise? I will never drink again!
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Old 04-04-2018, 01:32 AM
  # 23 (permalink)  
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Why would it ever be important to emphasize that a person wanting to end problematic drinking cannot make an unbreakable promise to never drink again, when FOR ALL PRACTICAL PURPOSES, it is patently obvious that he or she CAN make that exact promise? I will never drink again!
herein lies the problem: it works for you and some others,but has been proven for hundreds of years it doesnt work that way for everyone.

one reason for the why of it-
alcoholics can become beyond self help. its a fact proven here time and again.
if it was as simple as that,people wouldnt die daily from alcoholism.
if you truly want to learn why,there are some excellent studies outon the www. you may want to look up william silkworth. he had some pretty good observations. he worked with or talked to 40,000 drunks in his day.

can a pedophile stop being a pedophile with a promise?
a rapist? a theif?
can someone with bi polar stop exhibiting the symptoms because they made a promise?

its just not how it works.
maybe read around the forum some? theres thousands of cases right here on alcoholism alone the show a promise isnt enough for many.
it is what it is.

prime numbers dont exist because there are no numbers. they dont exist.i promise.
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Old 04-04-2018, 03:56 AM
  # 24 (permalink)  
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I'm somewhere in between the two camps. When I first quit using the statement "I will never drink again in my life" seemed waaay too overwhelming. What I could say is I will not drink today. Or during some of the truly challenging times in the beginning, I will not drink in the next hour. And that got me through to the next day. It's now much, much easier on a daily basis and I'm able to see it as a long term commitment. Still not using the phrase "for life".

However I don't believe if a person relapses it means "their methods of self-reliance have failed". I believe it means addiction is something we must remain vigilent about. Always.

The same thing applies to other addictions, cigarettes in my case. I quit for a week then went back to it. I now know I can get past the initial torture and it does indeed get easier on the other side, which is more than I knew going into it the first time. Next time I'll make it further. Not ideal but yes it is what it is.
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Old 04-04-2018, 04:16 AM
  # 25 (permalink)  
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I am with mindful man on this one, like many things.

Hope everyone is well.
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Old 04-04-2018, 04:24 AM
  # 26 (permalink)  
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The truth is, there are a number of us on here who don't drink/use anymore and who managed to quit by various methods.
It strikes me that we shouldn't be so precious about our own methods, as I suppose it doesn't matter what helped somebody else.
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Old 04-04-2018, 06:30 AM
  # 27 (permalink)  
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Agreed!
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Old 04-04-2018, 07:22 AM
  # 28 (permalink)  
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I think anyone can make and keep the pledge to quit anything, for life.

I don't believe for a second that a person can get beyond self help.

I also find the idea of comparing quitting using substances to quitting raping people or molesting children repulsive and wrong. But I believe that one can put the act of drinking in the same category of things they would never do, like raping or molesting.
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Old 04-04-2018, 07:31 AM
  # 29 (permalink)  
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I don't believe for a second that a person can get beyond self help.
you are free to believe that.
however, the alcoholism and newcomers forum here have a lot of evidence in itself to the contrary.
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Old 04-04-2018, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by tomsteve View Post
I don't believe for a second that a person can get beyond self help.
you are free to believe that.
however, the alcoholism and newcomers forum here have a lot of evidence in itself to the contrary.
Nonsense. The fact that they have found this site and are seeking out information is evidence of their ability to self help.
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Old 04-04-2018, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Cosima11 View Post
I'm somewhere in between the two camps. When I first quit using the statement "I will never drink again in my life" seemed waaay too overwhelming. What I could say is I will not drink today. Or during some of the truly challenging times in the beginning, I will not drink in the next hour.
That's exactly how it went for me, too. I remember my first solemn promise, it was to not drink for the next two months, the duration of my outpatient program, and evaluate where I was then. Forever was waaay too big, just getting through the days of anxiety and depression was enough, and my longest previous stretch had been 9 days in a period where I hadn't gotten so pickled, so 60 days seemed huge enough. Then I moved it back, 3 months, to my birthday. Then, it was through the summer. But before I had gone 6 weeks sober, it was forever and I knew it. I remember my wife saying, "Well I'm sure once you've been sober for long enough you'll be able to drink again" (her co-dependence was talking), and I said, "No, this is forever, I'm done with drinking permanently". And I was.

Solemn vows have a place, I think, early in sobriety, and perhaps that's where the value of an "unbreakable promise" lies, adding weight to a decision that part of you really doesn't want to make, or wishes it didn't have to make. But I can't imagine going through the rest of my sober life not drinking just because of a promise I made to myself years before, that's an emotionless logical sort of path a computer might take, but I can't. I don't drink, and won't ever drink again, because I don't wish to and because I know that no matter what happens, good or bad, I will quickly turn it all to ashes if I were to start drinking again. And if I ever waver, I can think back to where drinking led me in 2010, and remember what it was like. It was hell, and for me alcohol is forever closely tied to that hell, so there's a very strong revulsion factor that I don't think I'll ever lose.
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Old 04-04-2018, 07:44 AM
  # 32 (permalink)  
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I think it's important for folks to remember that even though this is not the newcomers forum, the spirit of SR is to help each other - not bicker or argue about who's method is "better" than the next. Or to criticize one method because it does not include ideas/tenets that another might or not.

Just because this forum is a bit off the beaten path of the main forums, It does not give license to bash/insult/argue/put down others or their methods.
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Old 04-04-2018, 08:15 AM
  # 33 (permalink)  
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The only insulting/bashing/arguing/putting down are those posts directed at discrediting the OP.
It is astonishing to see how powerful the collective AV is toward coloring a discussion, the psycho-epistemologic eruptions of the AV actually have adults arguing over the merits of promise making, lol !
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Old 04-04-2018, 08:50 AM
  # 34 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by dwtbd View Post
The only insulting/bashing/arguing/putting down are those posts directed at discrediting the OP.
It is astonishing to see how powerful the collective AV is toward coloring a discussion, the psycho-epistemologic eruptions of the AV actually have adults arguing over the merits of promise making, lol !
Definitely! So much AV!
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Old 04-04-2018, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by dwtbd View Post
The only insulting/bashing/arguing/putting down are those posts directed at discrediting the OP.
It is astonishing to see how powerful the collective AV is toward coloring a discussion, the psycho-epistemologic eruptions of the AV actually have adults arguing over the merits of promise making, lol !
Exchange and discussion including points of view that are different from your AVRT-focused perspective aren't necessarily bashing. And didn't you just put down all those people as "the collective AV", voices you don't want to hear? This is why many non-RR secular recovery folks don't post here.
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Old 04-04-2018, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by JeffreyAK View Post
Exchange and discussion including points of view that are different from your AVRT-focused perspective aren't necessarily bashing. And didn't you just put down all those people as "the collective AV", voices you don't want to hear? This is why many non-RR secular recovery folks don't post here.
I took Scott's post to be a warning against commenting on other 'methods' , wouldn't the posts that disparage the OP be the kind to single out ?

The 'collective AV' is how I describe the current culture's aggregate view of recovery, as a member of the current culture I too am affected and can see the effects of it.

I don't mind hearing it , I think I am pretty good at identifying it.
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Old 04-04-2018, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by dwtbd View Post
I took Scott's post to be a warning against commenting on other 'methods' , wouldn't the posts that disparage the OP be the kind to single out ?
My post was simply meant to remind everyone that the main goal of SR is to inform, support and help each other. Disparaging remarks are not helpful in any form - whether they disparage a person, a post or a method.
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Old 04-04-2018, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by JeffreyAK View Post
Exchange and discussion including points of view that are different from your AVRT-focused perspective aren't necessarily bashing. And didn't you just put down all those people as "the collective AV", voices you don't want to hear? This is why many non-RR secular recovery folks don't post here.
People don't post in this sub forum because they do not like to see any thoughts of future alcohol use or doubts in their ability to remain abstinent, exposed or examined by their peers?

They feel more comfortable posting where that doesn't happen ?

Do they take comments made about an abstraction , personally ?

They haven't figured out the Ignore function ?

How is it we know what many of them think ?
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Old 04-04-2018, 06:28 PM
  # 39 (permalink)  
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here's why i don't usually post in the secular section: i find my experiences/ideas/questions/opinions almost exclusively responded to in some methods' framework, the framework that is the one being championed by the responder.
it might leave some room for ' other views' but does not encourage enlargment or widening of what is being discussed.
it usually leaves me feeling unwelcome and that a voice that doesn't "fit" has no real place here.
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Old 04-04-2018, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by fini
here's why i don't usually post in the secular section: i find my experiences/ideas/questions/opinions almost exclusively responded to in some methods' framework, the framework that is the one being championed by the responder.
it might leave some room for ' other views' but does not encourage enlargment or widening of what is being discussed.
it usually leaves me feeling unwelcome and that a voice that doesn't "fit" has no real place here.
I feel exactly the same way too, fini...except in other forums.
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