samseb5351

These are the sort of conversations that get the grey matter going, that is a very good thing. This challenging of each other no matter what we believe or practice is often missing in Recovery rooms, Stirring the pot in my opinion is never a bad habit unless you use the spoon to hit people over the head. There is no way you did any head whacking with your thoughtful comments, they were much appreciated from me at least.

Spacegoat

Lol at the video, Zen. I was the same I completely dismissed and scoffed at that opinion, just as you are. The only thing I've heard that captured my attention any was 'A Spritual Malady'. A dis-ease of the soul, if you will?

Wholesome

Yes! I agree with that part too Stratman. Alcoholism is indeed a sickness of the soul.... at least for me it is.

Wholesome

It makes me less than I can be and it makes me dislike myself.

Spacegoat

Yeah. I imagine it is quite a profound truth. I think there is an element of self malevolence involved.

I read that here from people talking about this 'Beast' stuff and something clicked with me recently.

Same here Zen, ugh.

samseb5351

Thanks Zen and Strat.

Very interesting discussion.
Just a few questions.
You have mentioned a 'Soul" I was wondering if you could expand on that?
What is a soul?
In terms of the "Beast" do you think that description describes some kind of force with an evil intent as expressed in the use of the word "malevolence" or is it something else?
I often wonder why we think of addiction in terms of a spiritual malady, what elements take our thoughts to ideas of dis-ease of the spirit, and for that matter what are we really talking about when we use the word Spiritual.
These days in my recovery Spiritual seems to be more about Well being, that my addiction taken to its extremes, heads in a very disruptive direction, somehow it interferes with the a long satisfying life and impacts (mostly negatively) on those around me.

Just a few things there, I look forward to the discussion.

Spacegoat

I can't really Sam, but I will try. I know that I listen to a lot of soul-influenced music and always have done.

When other people close to me make transgressions against me I'm often left feeling that it is an affront on my soul. I don't know why that is and I try to take this less personally recently.

I know that it's a metaphysical concept. Our very essence? I'm not sure, I'd like to hear what others believe.

I've only ever heard that term used on here and in some rock songs that I am not particularly fond of.

Many say the 'Beast' our AV is trying to kill us and cause us harm. Now if that isn't malevolent I don't know what is. MountainMan said that alcohol causes him to seek an evil spirit at times.

I know that my own drinking was often if not always self destructive and sabotaging beyond a point.

I wonder too. But it's a term that holds appeal for me. I have been trying to become more spiritual for a while.

While drinking heavily at the same time. I'm starting to reason the two are probably not compatible, at least for me. Those elements are connected to feelings somehow at a guess? I dunno.

Speaking of feelings, I feel a bit sad now for some reason. Anyway, could be an interesting discussion I hope.

Wholesome

To me my soul is my energy and my life force....... drinking diminishes them. When I'm constantly compromising myself and poisoning my body it takes away from my vibrancy. The shame and remorse can be crippling. I just watched a Ted Talks about shame and the speaker said that shame is a more powerful emotion than anger or love. Enough self shaming can change and distort a persons spirit.

I interpret my beast as my lower self, my impulsive and selfish side, the side that speaks before I think, my immature childish self.

My sober self is the part of myself, of my soul, if you will, that is striving to become whole and heal myself.

SDH73

In terms of AVRT and in the context of Jack Trimpey's book "Rational Recovery" the Beast/AV is simply the pleasure seeking part of the brain working to receive more pleasure. AVRT (Addictive Voice Recognition Technique) is a method of recognizing and separating out thoughts of drinking/using by that part of the brain. It's called the Beast because it is a lower part of our brain that doesn't reason or consider consequences, its sole purpose is to seek pleasure. So no, it's not really a supernatural or spiritual thing. Though it's not incompatible with a spiritual approach to life, I suppose.

Spacegoat

The issue I take with that SDH is that the 'pleasure' it sought was in consistently and repeatedly ingesting a poison.

In order to solely block out all and any meaningful experiences, and generally wreak all and any havoc upon oneself.

I don't see any pleasure in that. I can see the benefit in being able to determine how these impulses originate though.

JeffreyAK

Yes, at the end there was no pleasure for me, only "normality" that I was chasing, and maybe escape from the growing sense of doom and recognition of the growing pile of negative consequences. It was a pretty miserable pathetic existence, not at all hedonism and much more like what it was, chemical dependency. Fortunately I escaped and got better.

Wholesome

Oh I don't know boys! I can't say the same. I got a lot of pleasure of it. I liked it waaaaaay too much! What I didn't like were the consequences. I didn't like the dependency, not being able to control it, making myself sick from it, acting in a ways I wasn't proud of, being reckless over my desire to keep doing it over and over again etc etc....... But I can't say that I didn't like getting drunk and partying.

Spacegoat

Nope, I can't say I ever enjoyed drinking at all. I enjoyed being in other peoples company, the false sense of self esteem it gave me and the fact that I could block out a lot of pain or even trauma's with it.

Anything beyond that was only feeding this 'beast' thing that I don't particularly understand yet. The only time I ever a-sorta enjoyed it was when mixing it with other substances, but usually it won out.

I.e when I was younger and took some e with friends, we would drink and especially afterwards for the next day (or 2), that was like-ok. And drinking with a few spliffs seemed like a balanced endeavour.

But just drinking, or predominately consuming alcohol was like an urgency to keep on going until 'something' was satisfied. No fun at all. I liked your answers Zen btw, we had a similar one about the soul.

SDH73

Was it fun? Not really, but it made other things I was doing seem more fun.
Did I enjoy it? Hmm, again, I guess it made other things seem more enjoyable.
I will say that for the last few years I wasn't drinking for fun, per se. It was just what I did, and consequences be damned! Compulsion? Chemical dependency? Self-destructive habit? Yes, yes, and yes.

I don't think of the Beast/AV as evil or wanting to kill me. After all, it's a part of me.
It's been fed this substance in such quantities and for so long that somehow it's been rewired to see drinking as a necessity. After the withdrawal period alcohol is no longer a physical necessity to feel "normal", but the Beast has already been trained and persists in its attempts to continue drinking.

I'm not the one to explain this in detail as I'm still learning about it myself. What's important to me right now is to simply recognize those thoughts and to separate them from what I know to be a much better path for me. There is an explanation of AVRT written by FreshStart somewhere here on SR that explains it pretty well. Or pick up the book "Rational Recovery" by Jack Trimpey. It's a really good read for a number of reasons.

Wholesome

I think you do a fine job of explaining it SDH

Here is the link where FreshStart explains it.
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ined-long.html

I'm still learning it myself. I'm reading RR right now and I wasn't doing it correctly..... I wasn't identifying my AV and I was definitely engaging with it.

There is a party coming up next weekend that I go to every year and I'm getting a ton of pressure from my peeps to go to. My beast keeps telling me how fun it will be, how sad it will be when it can't partake, how boring it's summer will be if it can't drink. I know that I don't want to drink too much and feel sick later or talk a bunch of nonsense that will make me cringe IF I can even remember all the smack I talked........

Wholesome

I value my self respect, my dignity, my peace of mind, my health, my family, my pets, more than some drunken escapade that I will vaguely remember.

Wholesome

My AV is active today...... I have caught myself fantasizing about how much money it would take is someone were to offer me money to take a drink? The bidding would start at $5000. Absurd I know!

Also keep getting images of me on the patio having a beer sitting in the sun and people watching.......

Not going to act on them of course because I don't drink.

Going to keep myself busy. Off to the gym shortly to get high on endorphin's and maybe down to the beach after.

MesaMan

The AV attempts at price-dependent 'Negotiating' reminded me of this Classic. Humor intended...

Winston S. Churchill

“Churchill: "Madam, would you sleep with me for five million pounds?"

Socialite: "My goodness, Mr. Churchill... Well, I suppose... we would have to discuss terms, of course... "

Churchill: "Would you sleep with me for five pounds?"

Socialite: "Mr. Churchill, what kind of woman do you think I am?!"

Churchill: "Madam, we've already established that. Now we are haggling about the price”

I goes on and on... One last Shot on my Death Bed? One final Toast at my Wife's Wake? One 'Consolation' Toast in Grief when we put down our 4th, and dearly loved, Golden Retriever?

Nope. No Quarter given. Only a total Mental Firewall allows me peace in Sobriety.
.

Wholesome

I just had my worst AV attack yet..... that was a close one. It really wants to get drunk today..... not a few drinks. DRUNK. Tried to exercise it away but that didn't work, almost drove into the Beer Store but didn't. Bad bad cravings when I got home.... I could taste the beer. Just ate 2 ice cream sandwiches and feel a bit better. I'm walking the line today.

dwtbd

Zen
I hope you got sick today, sick of eating ice cream sandwiches that is, for one you'd be too full for anything else, and two you'd be too full fo...
BPs cover the " lines" too, you got this.
"I will never drink, now" can be a good variant, and it doesn't matter how small or how many 'nows' there are , just don't drink in them, they add up
Starve out that AV, and fill yourself up with IC