Skeptics guide to recocery.
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Wollongong NSW
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Originally Posted by NightsWatch 
Thanks for sharing Samseb. What happened to Bob? Regardless of how you currently feel about this email, your concern and care for him comes through.
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Location: Concord, CA
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Originally Posted by samseb5351
Not all that long ago I suggested I would write my story on how I became an atheist. As I tried to remember the defining moments and the influences I was getting ideas that certain things looked in certain ways. I then realized I have a whole history of emails and posts I have written over the years, as I went back through my inbox and "sent" emails going all the way back to those first days fresh out of rehab, I kind of got a little bit of a shock, gee I was more full if platitudes and "deepities"
(Look up on the Net what a Dan Dennett Deepity is) than I remember. So as a beginning of my story I thought I might show you one of those emails from 2008, Am I a little embarrassed? Yes kind off. So please remember this is not me today, if you feel slightly Queazy than I am with You. This also is not an attempt to Rubbish any other program its just a chapter in my life. NAMES HAVE BEEN CHANGED TO PROTECT THE INNOCENT.
"Dear Bob
A while ago when I was totally lost I found a person who reached out to me, someone who cared enough to take the time and money to send me a book and support. Now, whether that book was to become a foundation of my recovery or not is irrelevant all I know it was what needed at the time to push me towards a God of my understanding.
Today Bob I have come a long way in comparison to back then, not anything really to do with my external world but on my insides. I make a heap of mistakes, my ego still emerges often and life can be tough, but I am learning my truth and I am getting free.
So Whats your Truth Bob?
I am going to say something here that probably will **** you off,
Unless you have a spiritual experience you are probably going to Die Bob, I don’t just mean a physical death (we all have to do that) but imagine dying without ever feeling the connection/ wholeness both you and I have always longed for. If that is acceptable to you, than nothing I say in this email will make any difference. But I am going to say it anyway because I am driven to do so and whether or not you care about living or dying I Do care very much so. I wont mince words here Bob the last thing you need is a namby pamby approach), I am going to say it as I see it< I care to much about you to worry about your feelings.
Like me Bob your so caught up in knowledge of recovery you are blocked from new experience, going on your posts you are going through the extremes of emotion and thought, one moment you feel like you have it and the next you are bitter, and than you feel hopeless. The two emotions that stand out for me are FEAR and ANGER, which in my experience are just different sides of the same coin.
That’s enough of the Psycho Analysis, what’s your dilemma?????
It’s not lack of knowledge or therapy or fellowship or desire or a medication that works its one thing Bob LACK OF POWER IS YOUR DILEMMA!!!!!
Let me tell you something about addiction from my experience, what the AA big book says and my observations of 100’s of people in recovery.
People like us have a primary addiction; we are tempted to imagine that primary addiction to be the one HABIT that has caused the most drama in our lives THAT IS A BIG MISTAKE. The primary addiction I am speaking of is the one thing (that when it was working) treated the Spiritual Malady (lack of wholeness/connection). It nestled right up against that disconnected feeling and made life do-able (it transcended emotion and physical sensation), it actually was for most of us our first real Spiritual Experience with depth and weight.
This is where people get confused, often we take up an addiction that doesn’t “nestle up against the Spiritual Malady” but treats the manifestations of the Spiritual Malady (usually emotional discomfort) kind of like s form of medication. In other words it becomes a secondary addiction. The weird thing is many people can suffer more ‘externally” from a secondary addiction than the primary addiction,
I hope I am clear here, (I understand it can be confusing) and also the lines between Primary and Secondary addiction can be blurred Only You and God know your truth.
The truth about my Primary addiction (gambling) is that it stops working, and it will kill me. (Not necessarily the substance or behaviour) but the untreated aspect of whom we are in relationship with that addiction. We, in regards to that addiction are left initially with 2 choices in my case Gambling. “Die a gambling death” or “live on a spiritual basis”.
However stuck in self we really have NO choices, because on our own power we are failures at dying and failures at living. We get to a place of spiritual bankruptcy, hopelessness, NO HOPE. Then we are ready for step ONE (which is really just an admission from our innermost self of hopelessness (based on self))
It is that foundation that will drive you through the steps, motivated by the absolute UNACCEPTABLITY of life and death based on nothing but SELF.
If a person tries to do 12 steps from a secondary addiction they will always CRAP out maybe at step 4 or step 9 or whatever, WHY because it’s a POOR foundation, because we cannot admit to our innermost selves that that particular addiction will kill us, we cannot see that the addiction once was something that “nestled up to the spiritual malady”. And we still have other alternatives (Therapy, fellowship etc).
Ok that’s enough of that, if you are confused that’s GOOD because maybe you are ready to learn your own truth. I am going to make some suggestions of what has worked for me.
This is all going to start with PRAYER
(Do it in your own words and your own way, its about attitude not technique)
PRAY to the God of your understanding to be shown truth
To be shown the light of love.
Ask God to set aside what you think you know about everything and ask for a NEW experience. (For you and I Knowledge is the noose around our neck).
Try and do these prayers at least for a 24-hour period before you respond to my post.
I love you Bob
Max
(Look up on the Net what a Dan Dennett Deepity is) than I remember. So as a beginning of my story I thought I might show you one of those emails from 2008, Am I a little embarrassed? Yes kind off. So please remember this is not me today, if you feel slightly Queazy than I am with You. This also is not an attempt to Rubbish any other program its just a chapter in my life. NAMES HAVE BEEN CHANGED TO PROTECT THE INNOCENT.
"Dear Bob
A while ago when I was totally lost I found a person who reached out to me, someone who cared enough to take the time and money to send me a book and support. Now, whether that book was to become a foundation of my recovery or not is irrelevant all I know it was what needed at the time to push me towards a God of my understanding.
Today Bob I have come a long way in comparison to back then, not anything really to do with my external world but on my insides. I make a heap of mistakes, my ego still emerges often and life can be tough, but I am learning my truth and I am getting free.
So Whats your Truth Bob?
I am going to say something here that probably will **** you off,
Unless you have a spiritual experience you are probably going to Die Bob, I don’t just mean a physical death (we all have to do that) but imagine dying without ever feeling the connection/ wholeness both you and I have always longed for. If that is acceptable to you, than nothing I say in this email will make any difference. But I am going to say it anyway because I am driven to do so and whether or not you care about living or dying I Do care very much so. I wont mince words here Bob the last thing you need is a namby pamby approach), I am going to say it as I see it< I care to much about you to worry about your feelings.
Like me Bob your so caught up in knowledge of recovery you are blocked from new experience, going on your posts you are going through the extremes of emotion and thought, one moment you feel like you have it and the next you are bitter, and than you feel hopeless. The two emotions that stand out for me are FEAR and ANGER, which in my experience are just different sides of the same coin.
That’s enough of the Psycho Analysis, what’s your dilemma?????
It’s not lack of knowledge or therapy or fellowship or desire or a medication that works its one thing Bob LACK OF POWER IS YOUR DILEMMA!!!!!
Let me tell you something about addiction from my experience, what the AA big book says and my observations of 100’s of people in recovery.
People like us have a primary addiction; we are tempted to imagine that primary addiction to be the one HABIT that has caused the most drama in our lives THAT IS A BIG MISTAKE. The primary addiction I am speaking of is the one thing (that when it was working) treated the Spiritual Malady (lack of wholeness/connection). It nestled right up against that disconnected feeling and made life do-able (it transcended emotion and physical sensation), it actually was for most of us our first real Spiritual Experience with depth and weight.
This is where people get confused, often we take up an addiction that doesn’t “nestle up against the Spiritual Malady” but treats the manifestations of the Spiritual Malady (usually emotional discomfort) kind of like s form of medication. In other words it becomes a secondary addiction. The weird thing is many people can suffer more ‘externally” from a secondary addiction than the primary addiction,
I hope I am clear here, (I understand it can be confusing) and also the lines between Primary and Secondary addiction can be blurred Only You and God know your truth.
The truth about my Primary addiction (gambling) is that it stops working, and it will kill me. (Not necessarily the substance or behaviour) but the untreated aspect of whom we are in relationship with that addiction. We, in regards to that addiction are left initially with 2 choices in my case Gambling. “Die a gambling death” or “live on a spiritual basis”.
However stuck in self we really have NO choices, because on our own power we are failures at dying and failures at living. We get to a place of spiritual bankruptcy, hopelessness, NO HOPE. Then we are ready for step ONE (which is really just an admission from our innermost self of hopelessness (based on self))
It is that foundation that will drive you through the steps, motivated by the absolute UNACCEPTABLITY of life and death based on nothing but SELF.
If a person tries to do 12 steps from a secondary addiction they will always CRAP out maybe at step 4 or step 9 or whatever, WHY because it’s a POOR foundation, because we cannot admit to our innermost selves that that particular addiction will kill us, we cannot see that the addiction once was something that “nestled up to the spiritual malady”. And we still have other alternatives (Therapy, fellowship etc).
Ok that’s enough of that, if you are confused that’s GOOD because maybe you are ready to learn your own truth. I am going to make some suggestions of what has worked for me.
This is all going to start with PRAYER
(Do it in your own words and your own way, its about attitude not technique)
PRAY to the God of your understanding to be shown truth
To be shown the light of love.
Ask God to set aside what you think you know about everything and ask for a NEW experience. (For you and I Knowledge is the noose around our neck).
Try and do these prayers at least for a 24-hour period before you respond to my post.
I love you Bob
Max
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Join Date: May 2012
Location: canada
Posts: 7,242
GG,
did you read the preamble to his letter, which quite clearly states some pertinent information, such as: it's the start to his "story on how I became an atheist" and that the email is six years old?
did you read the preamble to his letter, which quite clearly states some pertinent information, such as: it's the start to his "story on how I became an atheist" and that the email is six years old?
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Wollongong NSW
Posts: 241
Originally Posted by GoldenGutters
Wow, there's five minutes of my life I wont get back. Young man, you're on a secular thread. You're anecdotal evidence is not proof of a deity, only that you have an over active imagination.
I think I would have said the same if I read that without the pre amble, well at least thought the same thing. Very true, anecdotal evidence is not proof for a deity. You said theres five minutes of life I wont get back, imagine living like that with that kind of approach I will change it a little as wrote it in the first place "theres 5 years of my life I wont get back".
Thanks for the Young Man Comment, I am 50 so all "young man" stuff is welcome.
Take a look at other posts in the thread GG you might find them interesting
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Originally Posted by GoldenGutters
Hoof in mouth (or in this case: Hoof in finger) strikes again! OOPS!!! sorry..... To quote Roseanne Roseanna Danna: " Oh...nevah mind"
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