Skeptics guide to recocery.
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: "I'm not lost for I know where I am. But however, where I am may be lost ..."
Posts: 5,273
When I attempted suicide, the EMTs were unable to get a pulse on me. From what the doctors tell me, for all intents and purposes, I was dead for a minute. I had hours of sessions with a psychiatrist after that who insisted that I must have experienced something, seen something, but I did not...or I don't remember it if I did. Her theory, and some of the other medical doctors as well, was that it was not "my time" to go. That God had a plan. Conversely, other doctors said that whether the OD of drugs was a milligram short of killing me, or whether they found me at the right time, either way there was nothing supernatural to explain it. It just didn't happen from a purely biological standpoint. I lean toward the biological explanation, but who really knows for sure why I didn't die, or why I "came back"?
Nightswatch, thank you for your post. I too experience those moments of profound intensity, that I suspect others might label as spiritual, but I feel like they are within me. Like The Buddhist description of waking up.
The art teacher at our school puts an object in the middle of the room and the students draw it. It's fascinating to see how my 8/9 year old students begin to understand that while the still life subject in the middle of the room doesn't change-we are all looking at the same exact vase of flowers-but you wouldn't know it from their drawings. They see parts of the whole that their classmates on the other side of the room cannot see from their vantage point. Some see the yellow centers of the flowers, some cannot see the centers. Should they deny that they are there? What is certain, the centers are not there...for the students looking from the back. Is it possible for any of us to actually see the whole of the object at once? Does it take lots of walking around the room, so to speak, to get a clearer picture? Are some of us fine with just the one angle we can see? Even a tiny shift in trajectory allows for a different perspective, but many students are not interested in that. They like their picture just as it is.
Nightswatch, thank you for your post. I too experience those moments of profound intensity, that I suspect others might label as spiritual, but I feel like they are within me. Like The Buddhist description of waking up.
The art teacher at our school puts an object in the middle of the room and the students draw it. It's fascinating to see how my 8/9 year old students begin to understand that while the still life subject in the middle of the room doesn't change-we are all looking at the same exact vase of flowers-but you wouldn't know it from their drawings. They see parts of the whole that their classmates on the other side of the room cannot see from their vantage point. Some see the yellow centers of the flowers, some cannot see the centers. Should they deny that they are there? What is certain, the centers are not there...for the students looking from the back. Is it possible for any of us to actually see the whole of the object at once? Does it take lots of walking around the room, so to speak, to get a clearer picture? Are some of us fine with just the one angle we can see? Even a tiny shift in trajectory allows for a different perspective, but many students are not interested in that. They like their picture just as it is.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Colorado
Posts: 3,474
Coffee Thoughts
My own basis for believing in other Planes of Existence comes from ~4 very descriptive Accounts from trusted Friends. Including my Wife. At some point Statistically, these Accounts can't all be wrong. I do not conclude there is a Blissful/Hellish 'Afterlife'. I think such notions are merely attempts to control Behavior. Thus, I don't fret an Afterlife. I live an Ethically-clean Life [according to my internalized Values] , and don't sweat it beyond that. If I do get sent Upstairs after Death, I simply hope to occupy a reserved White Leather Recliner between Jimi Hendrix and Marilyn Monroe.
I do believe there are tortured Souls, however, and that they exist from a non-peaceful crossover at Death into the next Plane. That Energy can only transition States, and cannot be 'destroyed', is one supporting assumption.
Our Trips to Edinburgh involved only Spirits of the Single Malt type, so we never heard of 'The Vaults' until after we visited many times. Some who book overnight stays in The Vaults don't complete their Booking. It's simply too terrifying for them, including physical encounters like getting brushed against. I'd try at night there in a Heartbeat. I think such an night represents Objective Evidence; at least it does in my Mind.
The Edinburgh Vaults
1 of 4 'Spiritual' Accounts I believe is compelling because of the 'innocence' of the 'Reporter'. A Gal Pal's Granddaughter was crossing a wide Creek between 2 Houses that had been in her Family fo evah. The G Daughter came in puzzled, and said someone she couldn't see had told her 'Be careful, Sweetpea'. She also smelled what was later determined to be Pipe Tobacco. This, in a Creekbed with no one around, and no smells but Aspen and Pine. 'Sweetpea' was a term of endearment used by her Grandpa. She never had been called that nickname, nor had heard it. The Pipe-smoking Grandfather had slipped on a mossy Rock at that exact spot Decades prior, and died later from the fall. All this was unknown to the little Girl. The other 3 Accounts I believe in have similar credulity, depending on what one thinks that level of credulity is. In a 'Double Blind' Model, I think this Girl's Account represents untainted 'data'.
Among the Great Apes I believe [and DNA generally establishes] we share Genetic commonality with, only we can formulate the thoughts in this Thread. Or, so we believe. Behavior not conducive to perpetuating the Species naturally dies out. Enough Hitlers, or Tutsis and Hutus killing one another, and this Thread doesn't even exist for lack of a perpetuated Species. I believe in generally-innate perpetuating Behavior to which we overlay the concept of 'Good' or 'desirable'. The Herd gets culled more-or-less naturally. Enough 'bad' or 'evil' Genetic Characteristics, and the 'problem' resolves itself by an extinguished Species.
Social/Group Modeling takes a set malleable Genetic Traits and reinforces them to what we overlay as 'good'. Indeed, there are on the 'Net any number of Animal Vid Clips showing one Species looking after another. In the wild, exclusion from the Group, due to unacceptable behavior or traits, likely leads to starvation or death from Predators. Genetic continuation of undesirable Traits is thus terminated.
A FB Pal posted this timely Vid Clip just now - after I wrote the Paragraph above - which illustrates innate 'good'...
Bear Saves Drowning Crow
Within the last year, I saw some astounding Vid footage of running Animals escaping Predators. Near the rear of the Herd, one Adult 'intentionally' trips up a 'laggard'; resulting in that younger/slower Animal to be 'sacrificed'. An easy situation to anthropomorphize, but it perpetuated desired Herd Characteristics. The nimble escaped to live another day and procreate. Including in this Thread, we overlay 'good' or 'positive' upon those Characteristics, including nurturing Behavior.
I've hung out with Taiwanese Pals from the Hard Sciences who absolutely believe that some 'good' or even Life-saving event that happened to them represented 'proof' of their Ancestors intervening from another Plane. At the very least, this establishes to me that the lens through which we see otherwise-'Objective' Events is necessarily Culturally influenced. Thus, what is the 'Objective Experience' we're discussing? These Taiwanese POVs parallel mine re: second hand experience of another Spiritual Plane. The various Instruments 'measuring' interactions in the Edinburgh Vaults above could be argued as quantifying 'Data'.
In Audio Restoration, as well as Scientific Analysis, there is the concept and practice of getting back to 'Source Data'. This can mean the original Audio Recording, or the original Data from a Decades-old Experiment. In the matter of Spirituality, 'Source Data' for me is the essential experience of a Spiritual encounter, untainted by all the moralistic rubbish superimposed to force fit 'desirable' Behavior into mainstream Religious Dogma. Stripping away the 'noise' superimposed by mainstream Religions is the challenge of our time, IMO. The genuinely curious are thus left with an essence of Spirituality. This is what many Scientists and Researchers that I've met embrace, and find no conflict with. If that Spirituality then leads that Person to Religion 'x', I have absolutely no issue with that. It's usually pretty easy to discern the Spiritual depth of someone. Simply listen to what they say.
I do believe there are tortured Souls, however, and that they exist from a non-peaceful crossover at Death into the next Plane. That Energy can only transition States, and cannot be 'destroyed', is one supporting assumption.
Our Trips to Edinburgh involved only Spirits of the Single Malt type, so we never heard of 'The Vaults' until after we visited many times. Some who book overnight stays in The Vaults don't complete their Booking. It's simply too terrifying for them, including physical encounters like getting brushed against. I'd try at night there in a Heartbeat. I think such an night represents Objective Evidence; at least it does in my Mind.
The Edinburgh Vaults
1 of 4 'Spiritual' Accounts I believe is compelling because of the 'innocence' of the 'Reporter'. A Gal Pal's Granddaughter was crossing a wide Creek between 2 Houses that had been in her Family fo evah. The G Daughter came in puzzled, and said someone she couldn't see had told her 'Be careful, Sweetpea'. She also smelled what was later determined to be Pipe Tobacco. This, in a Creekbed with no one around, and no smells but Aspen and Pine. 'Sweetpea' was a term of endearment used by her Grandpa. She never had been called that nickname, nor had heard it. The Pipe-smoking Grandfather had slipped on a mossy Rock at that exact spot Decades prior, and died later from the fall. All this was unknown to the little Girl. The other 3 Accounts I believe in have similar credulity, depending on what one thinks that level of credulity is. In a 'Double Blind' Model, I think this Girl's Account represents untainted 'data'.
Among the Great Apes I believe [and DNA generally establishes] we share Genetic commonality with, only we can formulate the thoughts in this Thread. Or, so we believe. Behavior not conducive to perpetuating the Species naturally dies out. Enough Hitlers, or Tutsis and Hutus killing one another, and this Thread doesn't even exist for lack of a perpetuated Species. I believe in generally-innate perpetuating Behavior to which we overlay the concept of 'Good' or 'desirable'. The Herd gets culled more-or-less naturally. Enough 'bad' or 'evil' Genetic Characteristics, and the 'problem' resolves itself by an extinguished Species.
Social/Group Modeling takes a set malleable Genetic Traits and reinforces them to what we overlay as 'good'. Indeed, there are on the 'Net any number of Animal Vid Clips showing one Species looking after another. In the wild, exclusion from the Group, due to unacceptable behavior or traits, likely leads to starvation or death from Predators. Genetic continuation of undesirable Traits is thus terminated.
A FB Pal posted this timely Vid Clip just now - after I wrote the Paragraph above - which illustrates innate 'good'...
Bear Saves Drowning Crow
Within the last year, I saw some astounding Vid footage of running Animals escaping Predators. Near the rear of the Herd, one Adult 'intentionally' trips up a 'laggard'; resulting in that younger/slower Animal to be 'sacrificed'. An easy situation to anthropomorphize, but it perpetuated desired Herd Characteristics. The nimble escaped to live another day and procreate. Including in this Thread, we overlay 'good' or 'positive' upon those Characteristics, including nurturing Behavior.
I've hung out with Taiwanese Pals from the Hard Sciences who absolutely believe that some 'good' or even Life-saving event that happened to them represented 'proof' of their Ancestors intervening from another Plane. At the very least, this establishes to me that the lens through which we see otherwise-'Objective' Events is necessarily Culturally influenced. Thus, what is the 'Objective Experience' we're discussing? These Taiwanese POVs parallel mine re: second hand experience of another Spiritual Plane. The various Instruments 'measuring' interactions in the Edinburgh Vaults above could be argued as quantifying 'Data'.
In Audio Restoration, as well as Scientific Analysis, there is the concept and practice of getting back to 'Source Data'. This can mean the original Audio Recording, or the original Data from a Decades-old Experiment. In the matter of Spirituality, 'Source Data' for me is the essential experience of a Spiritual encounter, untainted by all the moralistic rubbish superimposed to force fit 'desirable' Behavior into mainstream Religious Dogma. Stripping away the 'noise' superimposed by mainstream Religions is the challenge of our time, IMO. The genuinely curious are thus left with an essence of Spirituality. This is what many Scientists and Researchers that I've met embrace, and find no conflict with. If that Spirituality then leads that Person to Religion 'x', I have absolutely no issue with that. It's usually pretty easy to discern the Spiritual depth of someone. Simply listen to what they say.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: PA
Posts: 12,000
MM - I need to clean my specs - I was no way going to believe a bear saved a drowning cow. On a side note, that bear didn't appear to be lacking for food.
the vaults - I did the ghost tour at Gettysburg. Even spent a night in one of the most haunted places and rooms. Slept like a baby all night. I was hoping to see or experience something but - nada. Tried to stay awake but I guess they took the night off.
I lived in an apartment in Beverly Hills for a spell. I started seeing a 'ghost' or someone walking into the bathroom from the long hallway on a few occasions. The first time was quite vivid - I'm getting goose bumps right now. She looked back at me just before she went through the doorway. I was totally spooked. I told my gf that I couldn't stay there any longer. The place really started to get to me. And I don't believe in that sht. We eventually moved down to long beach.
I told the landlord about it and found out that an actress committed suicide in that bathroom years before. That tub always gave me the creeps - it was about an 8' long tub.
"Why run from a bear? You can't outrun a bear. Yeah, but I can outrun you."
the vaults - I did the ghost tour at Gettysburg. Even spent a night in one of the most haunted places and rooms. Slept like a baby all night. I was hoping to see or experience something but - nada. Tried to stay awake but I guess they took the night off.
I lived in an apartment in Beverly Hills for a spell. I started seeing a 'ghost' or someone walking into the bathroom from the long hallway on a few occasions. The first time was quite vivid - I'm getting goose bumps right now. She looked back at me just before she went through the doorway. I was totally spooked. I told my gf that I couldn't stay there any longer. The place really started to get to me. And I don't believe in that sht. We eventually moved down to long beach.
I told the landlord about it and found out that an actress committed suicide in that bathroom years before. That tub always gave me the creeps - it was about an 8' long tub.
"Why run from a bear? You can't outrun a bear. Yeah, but I can outrun you."
Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Colorado
Posts: 3,474
5th Credible Account
LBrain~
You're the 5th or so Account I take very seriously re: your Bathroom Ghost experience. What persuades me, as in the other Accounts I trust, is that you saw what you saw first, and then got the whole Story backfilled. That sort of 'Experience -> Coherent Explanation' - especially from non-Believer you - is what makes a 'Believer' out of me. Cue the Theremin Music right here...
I did my usual bit the other day, and looked up an Actress who was in an old Movie we were watching on TCM. She committed Suicide later in Life as her Health declined. Darned if I can think of her name this moment. That would be some coincidence if you'd lived in her Apartment.
You're the 5th or so Account I take very seriously re: your Bathroom Ghost experience. What persuades me, as in the other Accounts I trust, is that you saw what you saw first, and then got the whole Story backfilled. That sort of 'Experience -> Coherent Explanation' - especially from non-Believer you - is what makes a 'Believer' out of me. Cue the Theremin Music right here...
I did my usual bit the other day, and looked up an Actress who was in an old Movie we were watching on TCM. She committed Suicide later in Life as her Health declined. Darned if I can think of her name this moment. That would be some coincidence if you'd lived in her Apartment.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Wollongong NSW
Posts: 241
Originally Posted by soberlicious 
When I attempted suicide, the EMTs were unable to get a pulse on me. From what the doctors tell me, for all intents and purposes, I was dead for a minute. I had hours of sessions with a psychiatrist after that who insisted that I must have experienced something, seen something, but I did not...or I don't remember it if I did. Her theory, and some of the other medical doctors as well, was that it was not "my time" to go. That God had a plan. Conversely, other doctors said that whether the OD of drugs was a milligram short of killing me, or whether they found me at the right time, either way there was nothing supernatural to explain it. It just didn't happen from a purely biological standpoint. I lean toward the biological explanation, but who really knows for sure why I didn't die, or why I "came back"? Nightswatch, thank you for your post. I too experience those moments of profound intensity, that I suspect others might label as spiritual, but I feel like they are within me. Like The Buddhist description of waking up. The art teacher at our school puts an object in the middle of the room and the students draw it. It's fascinating to see how my 8/9 year old students begin to understand that while the still life subject in the middle of the room doesn't change-we are all looking at the same exact vase of flowers-but you wouldn't know it from their drawings. They see parts of the whole that their classmates on the other side of the room cannot see from their vantage point. Some see the yellow centers of the flowers, some cannot see the centers. Should they deny that they are there? What is certain, the centers are not there...for the students looking from the back. Is it possible for any of us to actually see the whole of the object at once? Does it take lots of walking around the room, so to speak, to get a clearer picture? Are some of us fine with just the one angle we can see? Even a tiny shift in trajectory allows for a different perspective, but many students are not interested in that. They like their picture just as it is.
It reminds me a little bit of the story of "the blind men and the elephant" http://www.jainworld.com/literature/story25.htm.
But I think your points/questions have other very interesting aspects.
Its fascinating observation especially your curiosity in everyday situations. Thanks for that
Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: CA
Posts: 176
Originally Posted by desypete
i have just had a quick google of the experiments you mentioned but fail to see what point your making ?
Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Colorado
Posts: 3,474
Links To Topics Mentioned Above
Milgram Experiment Links
Stanford Prison Experiment Links
Re: the point made above by soberlicious on viewing Flowers...
An old Police Officer truism is that, if there's a Car Crash at an Intersection, you'll likely get 4 different stories from the Witnesses on each of the 4 different Corners.
Stanford Prison Experiment Links
Re: the point made above by soberlicious on viewing Flowers...
An old Police Officer truism is that, if there's a Car Crash at an Intersection, you'll likely get 4 different stories from the Witnesses on each of the 4 different Corners.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Wollongong NSW
Posts: 241
Originally Posted by MesaMan
My own basis for believing in other Planes of Existence comes from ~4 very descriptive Accounts from trusted Friends. Including my Wife. At some point Statistically, these Accounts can't all be wrong. I do not conclude there is a Blissful/Hellish 'Afterlife'. I think such notions are merely attempts to control Behavior. Thus, I don't fret an Afterlife. I live an Ethically-clean Life [according to my internalized Values] , and don't sweat it beyond that. If I do get sent Upstairs after Death, I simply hope to occupy a reserved White Leather Recliner between Jimi Hendrix and Marilyn Monroe. I do believe there are tortured Souls, however, and that they exist from a non-peaceful crossover at Death into the next Plane. That Energy can only transition States, and cannot be 'destroyed', is one supporting assumption. Our Trips to Edinburgh involved only Spirits of the Single Malt type, so we never heard of 'The Vaults' until after we visited many times. Some who book overnight stays in The Vaults don't complete their Booking. It's simply too terrifying for them, including physical encounters like getting brushed against. I'd try at night there in a Heartbeat. I think such an night represents Objective Evidence; at least it does in my Mind. The Edinburgh Vaults 1 of 4 'Spiritual' Accounts I believe is compelling because of the 'innocence' of the 'Reporter'. A Gal Pal's Granddaughter was crossing a wide Creek between 2 Houses that had been in her Family fo evah. The G Daughter came in puzzled, and said someone she couldn't see had told her 'Be careful, Sweetpea'. She also smelled what was later determined to be Pipe Tobacco. This, in a Creekbed with no one around, and no smells but Aspen and Pine. 'Sweetpea' was a term of endearment used by her Grandpa. She never had been called that nickname, nor had heard it. The Pipe-smoking Grandfather had slipped on a mossy Rock at that exact spot Decades prior, and died later from the fall. All this was unknown to the little Girl. The other 3 Accounts I believe in have similar credulity, depending on what one thinks that level of credulity is. In a 'Double Blind' Model, I think this Girl's Account represents untainted 'data'. Among the Great Apes I believe [and DNA generally establishes] we share Genetic commonality with, only we can formulate the thoughts in this Thread. Or, so we believe. Behavior not conducive to perpetuating the Species naturally dies out. Enough Hitlers, or Tutsis and Hutus killing one another, and this Thread doesn't even exist for lack of a perpetuated Species. I believe in generally-innate perpetuating Behavior to which we overlay the concept of 'Good' or 'desirable'. The Herd gets culled more-or-less naturally. Enough 'bad' or 'evil' Genetic Characteristics, and the 'problem' resolves itself by an extinguished Species. Social/Group Modeling takes a set malleable Genetic Traits and reinforces them to what we overlay as 'good'. Indeed, there are on the 'Net any number of Animal Vid Clips showing one Species looking after another. In the wild, exclusion from the Group, due to unacceptable behavior or traits, likely leads to starvation or death from Predators. Genetic continuation of undesirable Traits is thus terminated. A FB Pal posted this timely Vid Clip just now - after I wrote the Paragraph above - which illustrates innate 'good'... Bear Saves Drowning Crow Within the last year, I saw some astounding Vid footage of running Animals escaping Predators. Near the rear of the Herd, one Adult 'intentionally' trips up a 'laggard'; resulting in that younger/slower Animal to be 'sacrificed'. An easy situation to anthropomorphize, but it perpetuated desired Herd Characteristics. The nimble escaped to live another day and procreate. Including in this Thread, we overlay 'good' or 'positive' upon those Characteristics, including nurturing Behavior. I've hung out with Taiwanese Pals from the Hard Sciences who absolutely believe that some 'good' or even Life-saving event that happened to them represented 'proof' of their Ancestors intervening from another Plane. At the very least, this establishes to me that the lens through which we see otherwise-'Objective' Events is necessarily Culturally influenced. Thus, what is the 'Objective Experience' we're discussing? These Taiwanese POVs parallel mine re: second hand experience of another Spiritual Plane. The various Instruments 'measuring' interactions in the Edinburgh Vaults above could be argued as quantifying 'Data'.
In Audio Restoration, as well as Scientific Analysis, there is the concept and practice of getting back to 'Source Data'. This can mean the original Audio Recording, or the original Data from a Decades-old Experiment. In the matter of Spirituality, 'Source Data' for me is the essential experience of a Spiritual encounter, untainted by all the moralistic rubbish superimposed to force fit 'desirable' Behavior into mainstream Religious Dogma. Stripping away the 'noise' superimposed by mainstream Religions is the challenge of our time, IMO. The genuinely curious are thus left with an essence of Spirituality. This is what many Scientists and Researchers that I've met embrace, and find no conflict with. If that Spirituality then leads that Person to Religion 'x', I have absolutely no issue with that. It's usually pretty easy to discern the Spiritual depth of someone. Simply listen to what they say.
In Audio Restoration, as well as Scientific Analysis, there is the concept and practice of getting back to 'Source Data'. This can mean the original Audio Recording, or the original Data from a Decades-old Experiment. In the matter of Spirituality, 'Source Data' for me is the essential experience of a Spiritual encounter, untainted by all the moralistic rubbish superimposed to force fit 'desirable' Behavior into mainstream Religious Dogma. Stripping away the 'noise' superimposed by mainstream Religions is the challenge of our time, IMO. The genuinely curious are thus left with an essence of Spirituality. This is what many Scientists and Researchers that I've met embrace, and find no conflict with. If that Spirituality then leads that Person to Religion 'x', I have absolutely no issue with that. It's usually pretty easy to discern the Spiritual depth of someone. Simply listen to what they say.
I have some questions about your last paragraph
With the "source data" you mention, I am understanding this way and correct me if I am wrong.
The data would be something, written down, or computer code, or a wax cylinder that has been recorded upon, I am imagining its the earliest representation or even the beginning process that can be built upon or copied in some way. In these cases does it mean something physical or can it mean beginning ideas. would it be right to say "getting back to source data" is like following something back to its simplest origins?
So in reference to a spiritual experience, are you talking about the memory of the experience, or the moment in time when the experience occurred? Where would the Source Data be located for examination? Would you agree simply calling it a "spiritual experience" imposes a meaning upon it, that changes the source data, in other words the label is in a way influences its meaning? For example if something weird happens that cant be easily explained would you not be better of calling a weird unexplained event?
Further questions
What do you mean by an essence of spirituality?
What is it about what a person says that makes it easy to discern Spiritual Depth?
What do you mean by spiritual depth? Is it measurable, objective or subjective to the individual making the discernment?
Thank you for the discussion
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: "I'm not lost for I know where I am. But however, where I am may be lost ..."
Posts: 5,273
Originally Posted by samseb5351
For example if something weird happens that cant be easily explained would you not be better of calling a weird unexplained event?
It's super stuff to be sure, just not supernatural stuff.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Colorado
Posts: 3,474
Sunday Morning Musings
samseb5351, et al ~
As the Coffee kicks in, I appreciate your line of inquiry; causing me to stretch my various thoughts on this fine Sunday morning. I hope this exchange knocks some Rust off a few thoughts others might have, just as this Thread has caused me to do.
Q1: In these cases does it mean something physical or can it mean beginning ideas. would it be right to say "getting back to source data" is like following something back to its simplest origins?
A1: I mean both the scenarios you suggest.
In the case of HIV/AIDS Research, Scientists have returned to 'Original Source Data', and prior Research. They have looked at very early Studies and uncovered some useful insights overlooked prior.
A prior perspective was that what was termed 'Patient Zero' - the first known AIDS Case - was a sexually-active Canadian Flight Attendent. In the early 80s, his 'activity' and the nature of his Job caused him to spread his affliction; then un-characterized. Meanwhile, plenty of Researchers who did not participate in these 'original' Studies, but went off of subsequent published Studies, got things mostly right. Some got things wrong. This is inevitable. Meanwhile, there were unclear, confusing Medical Crises being reported from Urban Populations in places like NY City, and San Francisco.
Last I read up on this, some frozen Brain Samples were reviewed. Early AIDS Cases now are thought to originate as early as the 1930s. A suspect transmission might be due to the practice of eating a certain type of Monkey Brain; a delicacy that is treasured after the Hunt. AIDS 'likely' jumped Species. Indeed, a Pal of mine was offered the delicacy of Monkey Brain at a Ceremonial Dinner after he oversaw the installation of a complex Tool Coating Machine south of Shanghai ~30 years ago.
By returning to the 'Original Source Data', Researchers continue to gain new insights. BTW, I'm not trying at all to be sensational in citing AIDS Research. It's simply a convenient illustrative Story.
In a like manner to written down Research, I believe that following a belief or thought to it's simplest origin is both useful and insightful. As I age, I believe that a individual recollection or impression of a personal insight or experience is often as accurate as an transcribed Research, or a scratchy 33 RPM Album or Wax Recording. This is because transcribed Research flowed through Humans interpreting, say, controlled Lab Results. In a like manner, my own recollection of engaging in the short-sighted activity of going into old Mine Shafts around Boulder Colorado when young is as clear a recollection as any transcribed Research. Many recall the moment of epiphany to stop Drinking/Using. It might as well be recorded on Cellphone Video, it's that clear and memorable. Truth be told, in my Case, that moment is not that clear. I'm sure a Video Recording of that moment would different from my recollection of it. However, my recollection is the 'Original Source Data' of that moment. Subjective recall and all...
Indeed, I've seen CERN Researchers engaged in very vigorous debate about what a Particle Trajectory 'means'; all captured 'objectively' to the microsecond by sophisticated Instrumentation. The Data [or experience] is there. What does it mean? The Human 'Filter' is inevitable.
Yes, I think that labeling and compartmentalizing an event changes it. The good news is that, as we return to tightly-held recollections or beliefs, the re-examination of that 'Original Source Data' can provide insight. Just as is the case with AIDS or other Research. I know that this happened repeatedly with me after Int'l Biz Travel. I'll go back and reflect on what I thought was 'my' Objective Truth. Viewed through new Cultural insights gained Overseas, I 'revise and re-commit' to new memory - just like updating a mental Hard Drive, I suppose - my POV re: a prior Life experience. Who's to say that, as with my Taiwanese Pals, a Life-altering or Life-changing event wasn't my Ancestors assisting me from another Plane?
Q2: 'For example if something weird happens that cant be easily explained would you not be better of calling a weird unexplained event?'
A2: I think this is a good way to go, and I occasionally label such events as just that.
When I first took Tech Support Calls, I spec'ed out dual Ear Headsets w/Mics. The Brain processes Audio 'differently' between Hemispheres. I used this to my/our advantage [my fellow Tech Support Pals]. When I'd have some Indian Scientist on the call, and an Accent was daunting, I learned to just let the full sentence or his thought finish. THEN, I could usually go back and back-fill a word or two I'd not understood. In highly Technical conversations, placing the emphasis on a different word syllable than is the U.S. practice can be really confusing. Had I fixated on understanding each word, I would have missed the sentence context that provided word interpretation. Overall context provided understanding if one was patient.
In a like manner, certain 'weird, unexplained events' are best stored and left un-interpreted, I think. You can return to them later in Life, and perhaps back-fill the meaning [quite subjectively]; based on your new understanding that living Life often provides. Certainly, most all of us now reinterpret some, or many, Life Events from our sober perspectives, right?
As old saying of mine is that 'God is not going to come down and hand us a Video of what happened'. For example, a bizarre situation in a Rental House we used to own might never be fully understood; based on the 'Forensic Evidence' [the mess] that a departed Renter left me with. You back-fill what you can, and leave the rest for another day. In one case, the bizarre hole in the back of a Closet Wall was - ta da - an illegal Pet Ferret chomping through Drywall. Try to figger out that one immediately! It took me a while to understand the Root Cause of that damage. The evidence was there. My understanding wasn't.
To this point, LBrain's understanding of his Bathroom Ghost encounter occurred. Full stop. The understanding of it was back-filled later by the Landlord. To me, that all makes perfect sense. The 'Original Source Date' in his Mind of that encounter was stored, and later reinterpreted with new understanding. Fabulous, IMO. And, quite like the interaction my Taiwanese Pals claim to have with their departed Ancestors.
Q3: 'What do you mean by an essence of spirituality?
What is it about what a person says that makes it easy to discern Spiritual Depth?
What do you mean by spiritual depth? Is it measurable, objective or subjective to the individual making the discernment?'
A3: I'll combine these variations into a single answer.
After getting Rear-Ended the last day of 1989, we met a fantastic Massage Therapist. Named our 3rd Dog after him; a position of high honor around here. A real 'Guru' who would simply listen and - perhaps months later - come back with insight about a Life situation that was detailed over months on the Massage Table while breaking up Scar Tissue.
Buddhist Massage Therapist 'Jeff' had it. He had profound Spiritual Depth. ~24 years on, we're all still best of Friends. A true Life changer and, occasionally, fellow Single Malt Drunk. In Testimonial to Friendship depth, we've gotten together since I sobered up, and nothing's changed.
I think the nature of a Person's POVs on topics, and the depth of their Perspective, are what signal to me their Spiritual Depth. It's a bit like Political Discussion, I suppose. Does the Person reference only what's good for them and their Political Self-Interest, or do they intrinsically reference what's good for others/many? Do they pause, and grasp for the most eloquent expression for their POV because their responses are not 'canned', contentious POVs? Do they reference a past, and then express how they've grown since that prior POV? Are they open to changing their POVs either on the fly, or when we later talk another day? All these dynamics, and others, signal to me the Spiritual Depth of a Person, as well as if they're engaged in what we called 'Continuous Improvement' when discussing Manufacturing Processes. I simply know 'Continuous Improvement' when I see it in a Person.
After a long Marriage/Divorce, and raising 2 great Kids, an immediate Family Member decided she likes Girls more than Boys, and now 'bats for the Other Team'. A lil 'Seinfeld' reference, there. Fine by us. It's an interesting exercise, however, to look back on High School and early Photographs while clearing out Parental Estates. We now 're-interpret' old Photos - 'Original Source Data' - via our new perspective that we're looking at a Person who wanted to come out, but couldn't back then. Same 'Data'. New understanding re: Body Language; Hair and Dress styles; and Group 'comfort' as captured in a Photo. Just when you think you 'know' something, you don't.
On a practical note, it might be best that we refer to a Post # in this Thread w/o quoting the entire lengthy Post verbatim. In-depth thinking and discussion leads to in-depth writing.
As the Coffee kicks in, I appreciate your line of inquiry; causing me to stretch my various thoughts on this fine Sunday morning. I hope this exchange knocks some Rust off a few thoughts others might have, just as this Thread has caused me to do.
Q1: In these cases does it mean something physical or can it mean beginning ideas. would it be right to say "getting back to source data" is like following something back to its simplest origins?
A1: I mean both the scenarios you suggest.
In the case of HIV/AIDS Research, Scientists have returned to 'Original Source Data', and prior Research. They have looked at very early Studies and uncovered some useful insights overlooked prior.
A prior perspective was that what was termed 'Patient Zero' - the first known AIDS Case - was a sexually-active Canadian Flight Attendent. In the early 80s, his 'activity' and the nature of his Job caused him to spread his affliction; then un-characterized. Meanwhile, plenty of Researchers who did not participate in these 'original' Studies, but went off of subsequent published Studies, got things mostly right. Some got things wrong. This is inevitable. Meanwhile, there were unclear, confusing Medical Crises being reported from Urban Populations in places like NY City, and San Francisco.
Last I read up on this, some frozen Brain Samples were reviewed. Early AIDS Cases now are thought to originate as early as the 1930s. A suspect transmission might be due to the practice of eating a certain type of Monkey Brain; a delicacy that is treasured after the Hunt. AIDS 'likely' jumped Species. Indeed, a Pal of mine was offered the delicacy of Monkey Brain at a Ceremonial Dinner after he oversaw the installation of a complex Tool Coating Machine south of Shanghai ~30 years ago.
By returning to the 'Original Source Data', Researchers continue to gain new insights. BTW, I'm not trying at all to be sensational in citing AIDS Research. It's simply a convenient illustrative Story.
In a like manner to written down Research, I believe that following a belief or thought to it's simplest origin is both useful and insightful. As I age, I believe that a individual recollection or impression of a personal insight or experience is often as accurate as an transcribed Research, or a scratchy 33 RPM Album or Wax Recording. This is because transcribed Research flowed through Humans interpreting, say, controlled Lab Results. In a like manner, my own recollection of engaging in the short-sighted activity of going into old Mine Shafts around Boulder Colorado when young is as clear a recollection as any transcribed Research. Many recall the moment of epiphany to stop Drinking/Using. It might as well be recorded on Cellphone Video, it's that clear and memorable. Truth be told, in my Case, that moment is not that clear. I'm sure a Video Recording of that moment would different from my recollection of it. However, my recollection is the 'Original Source Data' of that moment. Subjective recall and all...
Indeed, I've seen CERN Researchers engaged in very vigorous debate about what a Particle Trajectory 'means'; all captured 'objectively' to the microsecond by sophisticated Instrumentation. The Data [or experience] is there. What does it mean? The Human 'Filter' is inevitable.
Yes, I think that labeling and compartmentalizing an event changes it. The good news is that, as we return to tightly-held recollections or beliefs, the re-examination of that 'Original Source Data' can provide insight. Just as is the case with AIDS or other Research. I know that this happened repeatedly with me after Int'l Biz Travel. I'll go back and reflect on what I thought was 'my' Objective Truth. Viewed through new Cultural insights gained Overseas, I 'revise and re-commit' to new memory - just like updating a mental Hard Drive, I suppose - my POV re: a prior Life experience. Who's to say that, as with my Taiwanese Pals, a Life-altering or Life-changing event wasn't my Ancestors assisting me from another Plane?
Q2: 'For example if something weird happens that cant be easily explained would you not be better of calling a weird unexplained event?'
A2: I think this is a good way to go, and I occasionally label such events as just that.
When I first took Tech Support Calls, I spec'ed out dual Ear Headsets w/Mics. The Brain processes Audio 'differently' between Hemispheres. I used this to my/our advantage [my fellow Tech Support Pals]. When I'd have some Indian Scientist on the call, and an Accent was daunting, I learned to just let the full sentence or his thought finish. THEN, I could usually go back and back-fill a word or two I'd not understood. In highly Technical conversations, placing the emphasis on a different word syllable than is the U.S. practice can be really confusing. Had I fixated on understanding each word, I would have missed the sentence context that provided word interpretation. Overall context provided understanding if one was patient.
In a like manner, certain 'weird, unexplained events' are best stored and left un-interpreted, I think. You can return to them later in Life, and perhaps back-fill the meaning [quite subjectively]; based on your new understanding that living Life often provides. Certainly, most all of us now reinterpret some, or many, Life Events from our sober perspectives, right?
As old saying of mine is that 'God is not going to come down and hand us a Video of what happened'. For example, a bizarre situation in a Rental House we used to own might never be fully understood; based on the 'Forensic Evidence' [the mess] that a departed Renter left me with. You back-fill what you can, and leave the rest for another day. In one case, the bizarre hole in the back of a Closet Wall was - ta da - an illegal Pet Ferret chomping through Drywall. Try to figger out that one immediately! It took me a while to understand the Root Cause of that damage. The evidence was there. My understanding wasn't.
To this point, LBrain's understanding of his Bathroom Ghost encounter occurred. Full stop. The understanding of it was back-filled later by the Landlord. To me, that all makes perfect sense. The 'Original Source Date' in his Mind of that encounter was stored, and later reinterpreted with new understanding. Fabulous, IMO. And, quite like the interaction my Taiwanese Pals claim to have with their departed Ancestors.
Q3: 'What do you mean by an essence of spirituality?
What is it about what a person says that makes it easy to discern Spiritual Depth?
What do you mean by spiritual depth? Is it measurable, objective or subjective to the individual making the discernment?'
A3: I'll combine these variations into a single answer.
After getting Rear-Ended the last day of 1989, we met a fantastic Massage Therapist. Named our 3rd Dog after him; a position of high honor around here. A real 'Guru' who would simply listen and - perhaps months later - come back with insight about a Life situation that was detailed over months on the Massage Table while breaking up Scar Tissue.
Buddhist Massage Therapist 'Jeff' had it. He had profound Spiritual Depth. ~24 years on, we're all still best of Friends. A true Life changer and, occasionally, fellow Single Malt Drunk. In Testimonial to Friendship depth, we've gotten together since I sobered up, and nothing's changed.
I think the nature of a Person's POVs on topics, and the depth of their Perspective, are what signal to me their Spiritual Depth. It's a bit like Political Discussion, I suppose. Does the Person reference only what's good for them and their Political Self-Interest, or do they intrinsically reference what's good for others/many? Do they pause, and grasp for the most eloquent expression for their POV because their responses are not 'canned', contentious POVs? Do they reference a past, and then express how they've grown since that prior POV? Are they open to changing their POVs either on the fly, or when we later talk another day? All these dynamics, and others, signal to me the Spiritual Depth of a Person, as well as if they're engaged in what we called 'Continuous Improvement' when discussing Manufacturing Processes. I simply know 'Continuous Improvement' when I see it in a Person.
After a long Marriage/Divorce, and raising 2 great Kids, an immediate Family Member decided she likes Girls more than Boys, and now 'bats for the Other Team'. A lil 'Seinfeld' reference, there. Fine by us. It's an interesting exercise, however, to look back on High School and early Photographs while clearing out Parental Estates. We now 're-interpret' old Photos - 'Original Source Data' - via our new perspective that we're looking at a Person who wanted to come out, but couldn't back then. Same 'Data'. New understanding re: Body Language; Hair and Dress styles; and Group 'comfort' as captured in a Photo. Just when you think you 'know' something, you don't.
On a practical note, it might be best that we refer to a Post # in this Thread w/o quoting the entire lengthy Post verbatim. In-depth thinking and discussion leads to in-depth writing.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: PA
Posts: 12,000
I've had enough of those,'god' moments and strange/neat things happen that I don't even put any thought into it anymore. "That was cool." Or, "That was bad." And that's it.
About 10 years ago I was in a new tree stand. Lone Wolf climbing stand. First time I used it. A buck was quartering away at 30 yards on a downhill slope. Don't know why, but I took the shot. As Bob Uecker would say, "Just a little high." As I stood there disgusted with my myself I prayed to god to send me a nice buck and I'll never ask for anything again. 15 minutes later this huge 8 pointer comes lumbering up toward me. Think of the ox in Blazing Saddles that Mongo is riding. Big wide spread - not a trophy rack but nice. I wasn't even nervous or shaking when I drew on him. Problem was After I drew the bow - he was sneaking to my right slowly. He was at a 90 deg angle to my platform and close. There was a protrusion from the top portion of the stand. As I slowly turned my body to follow the deer my bow string covered the arm of the tree stand as I was bent over at the waist. You can guess the rest. Arrow went flying off sideways, bow made a loud cartoon "twang" and of course the string came off and was ruined. A hundred yards away I could still hear him galloping away with the sound of a herd of wild horses. I could have jumped out of that tree Rambo style on this deer.
Anyway, I used up my one favor from god I suppose. I never did "pray" for anything since. I am a man of my word.
Many many moons ago I had an MGB. It was a typical Friday or Saturday night. The party 'in town' was over. Let's head up to the strip mines for the 'after party'. Everyone one of you already drunk people pile into your cars and head 5-10 miles out of town on windy back roads in the dark and we'll meet at 'X'. On the way, I was flying up a back road. Came upon a 90 deg turn with a telephone pole perfectly placed on the outside of the turn that if you didn't turn it was a head on into the pole. Also the pavement undulated through the turn.
Misjudging my speed (ability) I was almost off the road at the apex of the turn. When I jammed the breaks and turned or whatever - cause I'm not sure exactly what I did. The car spun twice I think and came to a stop completely centered between the road markings in perfect position 60 feet past the curve, stalled of course. When I got over the wtf just happened moment I saw that my car was perfectly in the middle of the lane pointing in the opposite direction - home. I started up the car and carefully drove home and went to bed.
Was it a god moment? Was it just dumb luck? Or was it a reactionary response to regain control of my vehicle after a lapse? Dunno. But I remember it vividly.
About 10 years ago I was in a new tree stand. Lone Wolf climbing stand. First time I used it. A buck was quartering away at 30 yards on a downhill slope. Don't know why, but I took the shot. As Bob Uecker would say, "Just a little high." As I stood there disgusted with my myself I prayed to god to send me a nice buck and I'll never ask for anything again. 15 minutes later this huge 8 pointer comes lumbering up toward me. Think of the ox in Blazing Saddles that Mongo is riding. Big wide spread - not a trophy rack but nice. I wasn't even nervous or shaking when I drew on him. Problem was After I drew the bow - he was sneaking to my right slowly. He was at a 90 deg angle to my platform and close. There was a protrusion from the top portion of the stand. As I slowly turned my body to follow the deer my bow string covered the arm of the tree stand as I was bent over at the waist. You can guess the rest. Arrow went flying off sideways, bow made a loud cartoon "twang" and of course the string came off and was ruined. A hundred yards away I could still hear him galloping away with the sound of a herd of wild horses. I could have jumped out of that tree Rambo style on this deer.
Anyway, I used up my one favor from god I suppose. I never did "pray" for anything since. I am a man of my word.
Many many moons ago I had an MGB. It was a typical Friday or Saturday night. The party 'in town' was over. Let's head up to the strip mines for the 'after party'. Everyone one of you already drunk people pile into your cars and head 5-10 miles out of town on windy back roads in the dark and we'll meet at 'X'. On the way, I was flying up a back road. Came upon a 90 deg turn with a telephone pole perfectly placed on the outside of the turn that if you didn't turn it was a head on into the pole. Also the pavement undulated through the turn.
Misjudging my speed (ability) I was almost off the road at the apex of the turn. When I jammed the breaks and turned or whatever - cause I'm not sure exactly what I did. The car spun twice I think and came to a stop completely centered between the road markings in perfect position 60 feet past the curve, stalled of course. When I got over the wtf just happened moment I saw that my car was perfectly in the middle of the lane pointing in the opposite direction - home. I started up the car and carefully drove home and went to bed.
Was it a god moment? Was it just dumb luck? Or was it a reactionary response to regain control of my vehicle after a lapse? Dunno. But I remember it vividly.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: PA
Posts: 12,000
I apologize for having not read the previous few long posts prior to my last post.
But back to it. The buck showed up just as I had asked for - or by being in the right place actually. Scouting a stand location is key. The point is that my quarry appeared as I had planned. However, I did not take my prey. I didn't 'ask god' to let me bag a buck, I only asked for one to appear. Was I more concerned about having the opportunity than I was with being successful at that moment in time? Many things go into to our thoughts and desires I believe. As I was enjoying being up in the tree, I was also thinking about having to field dress the animal, and hauling it over a mile back to base. Preparing and transporting said animal from Ohio back to eastern PA. Maybe having the opportunity rather than completing the kill was my goal. In the end, my prayer was answered. I saw a big buck.
I have passed on many deer over the years because of the work involved afterword.
This year is different. I am actually hunting for sustenance this year - food on the table. I am going to be very much aware of all of my actions and needs when I am in the woods. I am going to be prepared for the "work afterwords."
So was missing that big buck a fate I had chosen, predetermined? Probably.
But back to it. The buck showed up just as I had asked for - or by being in the right place actually. Scouting a stand location is key. The point is that my quarry appeared as I had planned. However, I did not take my prey. I didn't 'ask god' to let me bag a buck, I only asked for one to appear. Was I more concerned about having the opportunity than I was with being successful at that moment in time? Many things go into to our thoughts and desires I believe. As I was enjoying being up in the tree, I was also thinking about having to field dress the animal, and hauling it over a mile back to base. Preparing and transporting said animal from Ohio back to eastern PA. Maybe having the opportunity rather than completing the kill was my goal. In the end, my prayer was answered. I saw a big buck.
I have passed on many deer over the years because of the work involved afterword.
This year is different. I am actually hunting for sustenance this year - food on the table. I am going to be very much aware of all of my actions and needs when I am in the woods. I am going to be prepared for the "work afterwords."
So was missing that big buck a fate I had chosen, predetermined? Probably.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Colorado
Posts: 3,474
Not Tonight, Deer...
Did someone say Venison?
This is a Pic I took last Spring from inside the Living Room of an old Hippie Pal just up the Road from our W. Colorado Ranchette. He's named each of 'his' 50 Deer, and can ID each one. He [illegally] feeds them Apples 2x/day. BOXES of local Apples line his Hallways. His Wife was off to see their G Kids in Hawaii for several weeks. He's not taken a Vacation in ~20 years. Got Deer to feed.
We've got 26 or so Deer on our Land. They water in the 2 Canyons we have on either side of our Acreage. One 4 x 4 Buck wandered right up to our Glass Door, where I got a Pic. Not nearly so impressive as this one, but almost as tame. 'Our' Big Guy was a lil more impressive than the Head Mounts up on the Walls of our local Hardware Store. That's my 'Unit of Measure' for a Buck. Would he be accepted as a Trophy Mount at the local Hardware Store. I only Target Shoot, myself. Kind of a calming 'Zen' activity, actually, as is Bow Hunting.
LBrain, your memorable Account reminds me of that similar scene in 'The Deer Hunter'.
This is a Pic I took last Spring from inside the Living Room of an old Hippie Pal just up the Road from our W. Colorado Ranchette. He's named each of 'his' 50 Deer, and can ID each one. He [illegally] feeds them Apples 2x/day. BOXES of local Apples line his Hallways. His Wife was off to see their G Kids in Hawaii for several weeks. He's not taken a Vacation in ~20 years. Got Deer to feed.
We've got 26 or so Deer on our Land. They water in the 2 Canyons we have on either side of our Acreage. One 4 x 4 Buck wandered right up to our Glass Door, where I got a Pic. Not nearly so impressive as this one, but almost as tame. 'Our' Big Guy was a lil more impressive than the Head Mounts up on the Walls of our local Hardware Store. That's my 'Unit of Measure' for a Buck. Would he be accepted as a Trophy Mount at the local Hardware Store. I only Target Shoot, myself. Kind of a calming 'Zen' activity, actually, as is Bow Hunting.
LBrain, your memorable Account reminds me of that similar scene in 'The Deer Hunter'.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 3,359
Are the deer covered in ticks in AZ MM? Here in the North East the deer are infested with ticks, os much so that the skin appear to crawl. I don't hunt but am friendly with some guys in my Firm that do and I was shocked by what they told me.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Wollongong NSW
Posts: 241
Not all that long ago I suggested I would write my story on how I became an atheist. As I tried to remember the defining moments and the influences I was getting ideas that certain things looked in certain ways. I then realized I have a whole history of emails and posts I have written over the years, as I went back through my inbox and "sent" emails going all the way back to those first days fresh out of rehab, I kind of got a little bit of a shock, gee I was more full if platitudes and "deepities"
(Look up on the Net what a Dan Dennett Deepity is) than I remember. So as a beginning of my story I thought I might show you one of those emails from 2008, Am I a little embarrassed? Yes kind off. So please remember this is not me today, if you feel slightly Queazy than I am with You. This also is not an attempt to Rubbish any other program its just a chapter in my life. NAMES HAVE BEEN CHANGED TO PROTECT THE INNOCENT.
"Dear Bob
A while ago when I was totally lost I found a person who reached out to me, someone who cared enough to take the time and money to send me a book and support. Now, whether that book was to become a foundation of my recovery or not is irrelevant all I know it was what needed at the time to push me towards a God of my understanding.
Today Bob I have come a long way in comparison to back then, not anything really to do with my external world but on my insides. I make a heap of mistakes, my ego still emerges often and life can be tough, but I am learning my truth and I am getting free.
So Whats your Truth Bob?
I am going to say something here that probably will **** you off,
Unless you have a spiritual experience you are probably going to Die Bob, I don’t just mean a physical death (we all have to do that) but imagine dying without ever feeling the connection/ wholeness both you and I have always longed for. If that is acceptable to you, than nothing I say in this email will make any difference. But I am going to say it anyway because I am driven to do so and whether or not you care about living or dying I Do care very much so. I wont mince words here Bob the last thing you need is a namby pamby approach), I am going to say it as I see it< I care to much about you to worry about your feelings.
Like me Bob your so caught up in knowledge of recovery you are blocked from new experience, going on your posts you are going through the extremes of emotion and thought, one moment you feel like you have it and the next you are bitter, and than you feel hopeless. The two emotions that stand out for me are FEAR and ANGER, which in my experience are just different sides of the same coin.
That’s enough of the Psycho Analysis, what’s your dilemma?????
It’s not lack of knowledge or therapy or fellowship or desire or a medication that works its one thing Bob LACK OF POWER IS YOUR DILEMMA!!!!!
Let me tell you something about addiction from my experience, what the AA big book says and my observations of 100’s of people in recovery.
People like us have a primary addiction; we are tempted to imagine that primary addiction to be the one HABIT that has caused the most drama in our lives THAT IS A BIG MISTAKE. The primary addiction I am speaking of is the one thing (that when it was working) treated the Spiritual Malady (lack of wholeness/connection). It nestled right up against that disconnected feeling and made life do-able (it transcended emotion and physical sensation), it actually was for most of us our first real Spiritual Experience with depth and weight.
This is where people get confused, often we take up an addiction that doesn’t “nestle up against the Spiritual Malady” but treats the manifestations of the Spiritual Malady (usually emotional discomfort) kind of like s form of medication. In other words it becomes a secondary addiction. The weird thing is many people can suffer more ‘externally” from a secondary addiction than the primary addiction,
I hope I am clear here, (I understand it can be confusing) and also the lines between Primary and Secondary addiction can be blurred Only You and God know your truth.
The truth about my Primary addiction (gambling) is that it stops working, and it will kill me. (Not necessarily the substance or behaviour) but the untreated aspect of whom we are in relationship with that addiction. We, in regards to that addiction are left initially with 2 choices in my case Gambling. “Die a gambling death” or “live on a spiritual basis”.
However stuck in self we really have NO choices, because on our own power we are failures at dying and failures at living. We get to a place of spiritual bankruptcy, hopelessness, NO HOPE. Then we are ready for step ONE (which is really just an admission from our innermost self of hopelessness (based on self))
It is that foundation that will drive you through the steps, motivated by the absolute UNACCEPTABLITY of life and death based on nothing but SELF.
If a person tries to do 12 steps from a secondary addiction they will always CRAP out maybe at step 4 or step 9 or whatever, WHY because it’s a POOR foundation, because we cannot admit to our innermost selves that that particular addiction will kill us, we cannot see that the addiction once was something that “nestled up to the spiritual malady”. And we still have other alternatives (Therapy, fellowship etc).
Ok that’s enough of that, if you are confused that’s GOOD because maybe you are ready to learn your own truth. I am going to make some suggestions of what has worked for me.
This is all going to start with PRAYER
(Do it in your own words and your own way, its about attitude not technique)
PRAY to the God of your understanding to be shown truth
To be shown the light of love.
Ask God to set aside what you think you know about everything and ask for a NEW experience. (For you and I Knowledge is the noose around our neck).
Try and do these prayers at least for a 24-hour period before you respond to my post.
I love you Bob
Max
(Look up on the Net what a Dan Dennett Deepity is) than I remember. So as a beginning of my story I thought I might show you one of those emails from 2008, Am I a little embarrassed? Yes kind off. So please remember this is not me today, if you feel slightly Queazy than I am with You. This also is not an attempt to Rubbish any other program its just a chapter in my life. NAMES HAVE BEEN CHANGED TO PROTECT THE INNOCENT.
"Dear Bob
A while ago when I was totally lost I found a person who reached out to me, someone who cared enough to take the time and money to send me a book and support. Now, whether that book was to become a foundation of my recovery or not is irrelevant all I know it was what needed at the time to push me towards a God of my understanding.
Today Bob I have come a long way in comparison to back then, not anything really to do with my external world but on my insides. I make a heap of mistakes, my ego still emerges often and life can be tough, but I am learning my truth and I am getting free.
So Whats your Truth Bob?
I am going to say something here that probably will **** you off,
Unless you have a spiritual experience you are probably going to Die Bob, I don’t just mean a physical death (we all have to do that) but imagine dying without ever feeling the connection/ wholeness both you and I have always longed for. If that is acceptable to you, than nothing I say in this email will make any difference. But I am going to say it anyway because I am driven to do so and whether or not you care about living or dying I Do care very much so. I wont mince words here Bob the last thing you need is a namby pamby approach), I am going to say it as I see it< I care to much about you to worry about your feelings.
Like me Bob your so caught up in knowledge of recovery you are blocked from new experience, going on your posts you are going through the extremes of emotion and thought, one moment you feel like you have it and the next you are bitter, and than you feel hopeless. The two emotions that stand out for me are FEAR and ANGER, which in my experience are just different sides of the same coin.
That’s enough of the Psycho Analysis, what’s your dilemma?????
It’s not lack of knowledge or therapy or fellowship or desire or a medication that works its one thing Bob LACK OF POWER IS YOUR DILEMMA!!!!!
Let me tell you something about addiction from my experience, what the AA big book says and my observations of 100’s of people in recovery.
People like us have a primary addiction; we are tempted to imagine that primary addiction to be the one HABIT that has caused the most drama in our lives THAT IS A BIG MISTAKE. The primary addiction I am speaking of is the one thing (that when it was working) treated the Spiritual Malady (lack of wholeness/connection). It nestled right up against that disconnected feeling and made life do-able (it transcended emotion and physical sensation), it actually was for most of us our first real Spiritual Experience with depth and weight.
This is where people get confused, often we take up an addiction that doesn’t “nestle up against the Spiritual Malady” but treats the manifestations of the Spiritual Malady (usually emotional discomfort) kind of like s form of medication. In other words it becomes a secondary addiction. The weird thing is many people can suffer more ‘externally” from a secondary addiction than the primary addiction,
I hope I am clear here, (I understand it can be confusing) and also the lines between Primary and Secondary addiction can be blurred Only You and God know your truth.
The truth about my Primary addiction (gambling) is that it stops working, and it will kill me. (Not necessarily the substance or behaviour) but the untreated aspect of whom we are in relationship with that addiction. We, in regards to that addiction are left initially with 2 choices in my case Gambling. “Die a gambling death” or “live on a spiritual basis”.
However stuck in self we really have NO choices, because on our own power we are failures at dying and failures at living. We get to a place of spiritual bankruptcy, hopelessness, NO HOPE. Then we are ready for step ONE (which is really just an admission from our innermost self of hopelessness (based on self))
It is that foundation that will drive you through the steps, motivated by the absolute UNACCEPTABLITY of life and death based on nothing but SELF.
If a person tries to do 12 steps from a secondary addiction they will always CRAP out maybe at step 4 or step 9 or whatever, WHY because it’s a POOR foundation, because we cannot admit to our innermost selves that that particular addiction will kill us, we cannot see that the addiction once was something that “nestled up to the spiritual malady”. And we still have other alternatives (Therapy, fellowship etc).
Ok that’s enough of that, if you are confused that’s GOOD because maybe you are ready to learn your own truth. I am going to make some suggestions of what has worked for me.
This is all going to start with PRAYER
(Do it in your own words and your own way, its about attitude not technique)
PRAY to the God of your understanding to be shown truth
To be shown the light of love.
Ask God to set aside what you think you know about everything and ask for a NEW experience. (For you and I Knowledge is the noose around our neck).
Try and do these prayers at least for a 24-hour period before you respond to my post.
I love you Bob
Max
Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
