Blogs


Notices

Skeptics guide to recocery.

Old 07-30-2014, 05:38 AM
  # 41 (permalink)  
Self recovered Self discovered
 
freshstart57's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 5,147
huehuehuehue
freshstart57 is offline  
Old 07-30-2014, 05:40 AM
  # 42 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: "I'm not lost for I know where I am. But however, where I am may be lost ..."
Posts: 5,272
But as I explored a long held indoctrinated message...
That's it right there. People grip so tightly to these messages and questioning them creates a lot of fear, which in turn creates a long of anger.

Obviously for the purposes of this forum we see it in the area of recovery, but it's everywhere. In my own life though, an example of this has to do with my son who has autism. The theory of vaccinations causing autism was debunked quite some time ago, but you would be surprised to know how many people still hold this as fact and become extremely angry when challenged. I received serious backlash from other parents in the "special needs community" when I continued to vaccinate my son and when I went against the popular thought by refusing certain intrusive treatments that I found questionable. I could have cared less about the backlash, but I saw other more vulnerable (read: less b*itchy than me) parents who succumbed to all kinds of dangerous treatments based on this erroneous information, not to mention the anti-vax movement which should scare us all a great deal. That has the potential to have quite a grand scale negative effect. And all for what? A hugely flawed premise that was latched onto because of fear and emotionality and desperation. That same dynamic comes into play in recovery circles.

Often when we humans are scared and desperate, we grab at straws.
soberlicious is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to soberlicious For This Useful Post:
Altoids (07-31-2014), freshstart57 (07-30-2014), NightsWatch (07-30-2014)
Old 07-30-2014, 06:09 AM
  # 43 (permalink)  
Member
 
LBrain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: PA
Posts: 12,000
Blog Entries: 2
MM - define: Western civilization 300 BC.

I remember last year when we took a side trip from the GC to Lowell Observatory for an evening. After one of the 'presentations' the guy had to get backup to field some of my questions. I think I caused a melt down - wife was mad at me for playing stump the scientist.

An old George Carlin bit, "I was on my way to mass but we crossed the international date line. So I didn't make it to mass on Sunday. Would that be a sin then Fadder?"

all this talk of quarks, boson and such. How many quarks does a quark have?

back to real life - one of my all time favorite stories was a Dr Seuss spectacular : "Horton Hears A Who." A profound observation of our 'reality'...

Or the ever popular: Define the universe. Give two examples.
LBrain is offline  
Old 07-30-2014, 06:32 AM
  # 44 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: "I'm not lost for I know where I am. But however, where I am may be lost ..."
Posts: 5,272
Originally Posted by LBrain
back to real life - one of my all time favorite stories was a Dr Seuss spectacular : "Horton Hears A Who." A profound observation of our 'reality'...
Me too! Even as a young child I can remember feeling like "whoaaaaaa" when the ideas from "Horton Hears a Who" were sinking in.
soberlicious is offline  
Old 07-30-2014, 07:06 AM
  # 45 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 132
Bear with me, this applies but leaving out the complicated science part.

After I was in recovery about 6 months, well I used to go to my therapist and seemed each week I was excited about a new book I read, or method, or something I heard and making schedules for myself about doing this and that for staying sober.

Therapist put up her hand and said "do you know what science actually does?" because I had said a lot of science this and science that. She said science posits that the simplest answer is the most likely answer. Occam's razor.

She noticed I was in the cult of the complex. Like some people assume an item is better if it's price is higher. I had starry eyes over things because they were complicated. Maybe I felt they made me seem smart and sophisticated.

So,my conversion was to let go of being distracted by complexity, and consider the simple.

Also to work with who I was, and not worry over what this one said or that one did. Because they were starting from their place, and I was in my place.

The world is complex, but I don't have to seek complication over truth, just for effect. That was my tendency
Archelon is offline  
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Archelon For This Useful Post:
Altoids (07-31-2014), Hopeitlasts (08-03-2014), MesaMan (07-30-2014), NightsWatch (07-30-2014), soberlicious (07-30-2014), SparkyMcSparky (07-31-2014)
Old 07-30-2014, 07:41 AM
  # 46 (permalink)  
quat
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: terra (mostly)firma
Posts: 4,700
Stop! and then Don't!

It took me a long time to even consider that.
dwtbd is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to dwtbd For This Useful Post:
MesaMan (07-30-2014), soberlicious (07-30-2014)
Old 07-30-2014, 06:45 PM
  # 47 (permalink)  
Member
 
NightsWatch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: CA
Posts: 176
Thanks to this thread, I will be checking out Horton Hears a Who!

I might check out the other books mentioned too, the ones with more words.
NightsWatch is offline  
Old 07-31-2014, 12:37 AM
  # 48 (permalink)  
Sober Alcoholic
 
awuh1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,510
I just ran across this nice section of the movie "I AM" and realized that it might be a good addition to this thread. Quantum Entanglement - YouTube

Food for thought anyway.
awuh1 is offline  
Old 07-31-2014, 01:30 AM
  # 49 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: liverpool, england
Posts: 1,716
Originally Posted by freshstart57 View Post
Not sure about this, desypete, that there was a time when every one believed that the world was flat. Pythagoras from 6th century BC and Aristotle who lived in the 4th century BC are known to have believed the earth was spherical. A really clever dude named Erastosthenes actually calculated the diameter of the earth to within 1% in 250 BC using what is now high school math by measuring shadows at different spots on the earth at the same time of year. A modern historian says, 'With extraordinary few exceptions, no educated person in the history of Western Civilization from the third century B.C. onward believed that the Earth was flat'.

So you were right on the mark in the first place, desypete, to not believe that folks believed the earth was flat. It does make a cool story tho.

More info.
have a look at the flat earth society web site ??

they still believe the earth is flat
desypete is offline  
Old 07-31-2014, 03:01 AM
  # 50 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Wollongong NSW
Posts: 241
Originally Posted by awuh1 View Post
I just ran across this nice section of the movie "I AM" and realized that it might be a good addition to this thread. Quantum Entanglement - YouTube Food for thought anyway.

The last thing I want to do is
try and debunk this video I am not qualified to do so However the claims being made here are not those of physicists. The language used and the reference to Einsteins mystery then the claim that all things are linked, is a classic God of the Gaps claim. This is an example where critical thinking skills can really help, even when some of our most precious beliefs are challenged. I was once a great fan of a Movie called "what the bleep" it really tweaked my feelings of spiritual bliss, to me it looked like Smart people making amazing claims backed up by Science. It was really fascinating But
when you opened it up and checked the evidence it was mostly wishful thinking mixed with BS. On a quick Google search and a link to real scientists doing real scientific experiments much of what Quantum Entanglement is, is being explained without appeals to mysterious conclusions. Here is another link that may help yes another video.
http://www.universetoday.com/109525/...ent-explained/
samseb5351 is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to samseb5351 For This Useful Post:
freshstart57 (07-31-2014)
Old 07-31-2014, 07:15 AM
  # 51 (permalink)  
Member
 
LBrain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: PA
Posts: 12,000
Blog Entries: 2
Interesting. Last night I couldn't sleep so I went down and put on netflix. A documentary popped up first on the list. Particle Fever it is called. It's about the CERN experiments and the search to capture the Higgs Boson. How timely is that? I never new of this movie but it just showed up first on my list. hmmmmm...
Recommend for all you air heads out there. It is well done.
LBrain is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to LBrain For This Useful Post:
MesaMan (07-31-2014)
Old 07-31-2014, 08:10 AM
  # 52 (permalink)  
quat
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: terra (mostly)firma
Posts: 4,700
Originally Posted by LBrain View Post
Interesting. Last night I couldn't sleep so I went down and put on netflix. A documentary popped up first on the list. Particle Fever it is called. It's about the CERN experiments and the search to capture the Higgs Boson. How timely is that? I never new of this movie but it just showed up first on my list. hmmmmm...
Recommend for all you air heads out there. It is well done.
I am very much the unscientific layman, though interested in such things. I think they are practically done, if not completely done, running the data that would confirm a Higgs 'sighting' and I believe the percentages of error( or lack thereof?) in the data are in the realm of the scientists agreeing that the numbers say "yep , boson, of the Higgs variety, glimpsed".

And as close as I understand the Higgs B or 'god particle' is supposed to lend credulity to a theory invovling an energy field( the Higgs field) the permeates the universe and matter spawns from it and when it does it would leave behind a Higgs Boson, so if they saw one the field may be.

Again very course overview, and not sure if correct on mass generalizations, any physics geek , help?
dwtbd is offline  
Old 07-31-2014, 09:01 AM
  # 53 (permalink)  
Member
 
LBrain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: PA
Posts: 12,000
Blog Entries: 2
funny thing, as I was watching these physicists talk and all that jazz, I started to think about one of my past ideas. I still think it is possible to neutralize gamma radiation - or at least accelerate the decay of certain radioisotopes - to make it more or less harmless.
If anyone out there is willing to support me for the next twenty years I am willing to dedicate my life to research. I can't tell you about it unless I get credit for my contribution when you pick up your Nobel Prize.
LBrain is offline  
Old 07-31-2014, 09:03 AM
  # 54 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,949
Blog Entries: 1
Originally Posted by trachemys View Post
In light of some new theories, let me ask: Can information die?
when when we die many spiritual people believe our higher self will be left over...this information you are speaking of like scientific theories is very much entangled in the ego..which will vanish after physical death...theoretically of course lol....so living on earth discussing science is really much ado about nothing in the spiritual sense
caboblanco is offline  
Old 07-31-2014, 09:16 AM
  # 55 (permalink)  
Member
 
MesaMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Colorado
Posts: 3,320
How The World Actually Works

Timely Netflix offering. Hee hee.

A tie-in related to why we're all here [Alcohol]... I went to DESY in Germany with our Sales Rep to see if we could get some Vacuum Measurement Biz. Met with a nice Guy in charge of Instrumentation, and we Geeks hit it right off. Based on Tech Specs, the Vacuum Gauges made by the Company I worked for were 'superior', and I was the Head Int'l Geek to help them integrate this Gauging into their Data Systems. Not a huge deal. DESY has 'discovered' and characterized a few fleeting Isotopes included on the Periodic Table.

So, Rational Me was pondering 'what would it take' to get this Biz. Despite excellent German-made Instrumentation being readily available, this Fellow favored U.K.-made Gear. I'm thinking 'WTH'?

After touring part of this Facility - as clean and tidy as a Hospital Operating Suite - we headed back to his Office for the usual Tech Chat. On his Desk was a partial answer to my puzzle: a ~10 Liter Glass Container of Brandy in a nice Wood Holder. Off the end Spigot, he poured the three of us a healthy Schnort of this fine Brandy in Paper Cups.

The competitive Sales Rep fully understood this Customer, and took care of him in order to get ~$250,000- worth of Vacuum Gauging Biz.

DESY Overview

I'd consider funding you, LBrain, but we've only just met.

As my Signature Line notes, I think Processes by which things operate proceed whether we're around to acknowledge and characterize them or not. The incredibly-small Time Frames; Voltages; and Temperatures these Research Facilities routinely operate on is truly Mind boggling until you get your Head around it.
MesaMan is offline  
Old 07-31-2014, 12:23 PM
  # 56 (permalink)  
Working-cl*** pseudo tough
 
SparkyMcSparky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Manitoba, Canada
Posts: 485
Blog Entries: 8
Very interesting thread all, though I admit the science part of it is a bit dry for me. I took physics and astrophysics in University, and although I found it interesting, knowing the amount that "x" gravitational force bends a beam of light wasn't all that personally relevant to myself.

However, I did enjoy philosophy, where an intro class was the first time I found out that "Whoah?! You mean that I'm not supposed to blindly accept everything I've been taught, and actually exercise free will, empiricism, and logic in looking at the world?"

Although these thoughts were unsettling, and I never managed to reconcile the free-will vs. determininsm argument with Christianity, I had still lived a fairly "Christian" life in the subsequent years. Kids were baptised, oldest was confirmed, fell back on faith when a child was lost, and hung the appropriate iconography around the house. Sought help from God with suspected mental illness and a drinking problem, and in all cases, received the same response.

Nada.

Now the definition of faith is that it is something you believe in the absence of empirical evidence. In science, these are called theories. In matters of the spirit, these are called religious belief. I have always had belief during my life, but have found this challenged somewhat as I go through the recovery process.

Not to say one turns their back on "God" due to a lack of response. However, without a response, one does have a justification in becoming skeptical. And when one is sober, they have both the time and the clarity to contemplate spiritualism. Because, if belief and faith are not sufficient to sustain a path of soberness, how do they make an adequate foundation upon which one can live their life?

I do work with some very intelligent people, many of them Christian, and one who has spent time in Bible School. Although not raised to be a skeptic, he does enjoy discussion of these matters, and the last few weeks, we have had some very in-depth discussion regarding Christianity and skepticism.

Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your belief system), the more research I do, the more I read, and the more I debate, the more I am becoming more secular in thought. For example, when we debate how empirical Christianity is, our discussions always go circular. Although I am given examples of "evidence" and "proof" to support Christianity, these "proofs" are sadly lacking. Why? Because all of the proofs themselves also require faith, as their authenticity is only valid through a lens of belief, not fact.

The Bible supports Christianity: The oldest living fragment of a New Testament Bible verse dates to approximately 160 years after Jesus' death. To believe this is the inspired word of God requires a leap of faith. Read a German textbook from 1938 and you'll understand what I mean.

Jesus fulfilled thousands of Old Testament prophesies: This tenet is based on the record of a book who's authorship is of question, which itself also requires acts of faith to believe. Adam and Eve, the Great Flood, etc. - the Old Testament itself is completely unverifiable. Any Talmudic scholar could set themselves up to fulfill Old Testament Prophesy. And the New Testament itself is also not independently verified. In other words, the "proof" also requires faith.

Regardless, having this discussion with others now means I have a Gideon app on my iPhone, as I still can be saved. And the Christians who are in my life are having difficulty providing me with proof of their belief, exposing it for what it is, well, uh, belief. But they do want me to figure it out before I die and go to Hell.

This is not to say that I am now secular or renouncing Christianity. I am also not going to start signing people up for the Deists or Atheists club. Instead, I have forced myself to look critically at my life (which includes the drinking), and am starting to think that if I choose to be a Christian, it is an act of faith, and can be justified in no other way.

I have also found more comfort in the concept that this is it, one life, and then nada, versus the torn and conflicted person I had been. Between Biblical parables and the concepts of Heaven and Hell, the "afterlife" is a potentially scary and unknown place. When one already suffers from temporal crises, this can be a source of great stress.

Plenty more to say, but this is probably enough for today.
SparkyMcSparky is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to SparkyMcSparky For This Useful Post:
RobbyRobot (08-01-2014), soberlicious (07-31-2014)
Old 07-31-2014, 01:34 PM
  # 57 (permalink)  
Marchia in Aeternum
 
trachemys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Georgia
Posts: 10,894
This is not to say that I am now secular or renouncing Christianity. I am also not going to start signing people up for the Deists or Atheists club. Instead, I have forced myself to look critically at my life (which includes the drinking), and am starting to think that if I choose to be a Christian, it is an act of faith, and can be justified in no other way.
But, that's how it's always been. As a matter of fast, the salvation clause never goes beyond belief. "Whosoever believes in him..."

I have also found more comfort in the concept that this is it, one life, and then nada, versus the torn and conflicted person I had been. Between Biblical parables and the concepts of Heaven and Hell, the "afterlife" is a potentially scary and unknown place. When one already suffers from temporal crises, this can be a source of great stress.
That's something I don't understand. If a person is secure in their faith, why are they scared of the afterlife? (Notice how that question answers itself?)

In particular, IF you had secure faith, and IF you lived your life in accordance with that faith, how would it differ from a life lived as if there were no afterlife?
trachemys is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to trachemys For This Useful Post:
MesaMan (07-31-2014)
Old 07-31-2014, 02:02 PM
  # 58 (permalink)  
Sober Alcoholic
 
awuh1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,510
samseb5351, I found the title of the video, "Quantum Entanglement Explained" to imply an extraordinary claim. I was initially quite excited at the prospect of watching the video.

Then I thought, if that were true, the media would already have had a field day with the news (sorry for the pun). There would be headlines like "Scientists explain what Einstein could not!" or "Ghost buster physicists explain spooky action at a distance". Sure enough, seeing the video confirms that it doesn't even come close to providing an explanation of quantum entanglement. The phrase "not even wrong" comes to mind.

I think it's good to be a skeptic. It allows new and possibly disturbing information to be considered. Being a skeptic by nature leads me to ask myself where the "God of the gaps claim" was introduced into this discussion. Was it you?

I'm tempted to suggest you take a look at Bell's theorem for more about connectedness, but I'm afraid you might reject it by claiming he is not a "real" scientist.
awuh1 is offline  
Old 07-31-2014, 02:41 PM
  # 59 (permalink)  
Working-cl*** pseudo tough
 
SparkyMcSparky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Manitoba, Canada
Posts: 485
Blog Entries: 8
Originally Posted by trachemys View Post
But, that's how it's always been. As a matter of fast, the salvation clause never goes beyond belief. "Whosoever believes in him..."

That's something I don't understand. If a person is secure in their faith, why are they scared of the afterlife? (Notice how that question answers itself?)

In particular, IF you had secure faith, and IF you lived your life in accordance with that faith, how would it differ from a life lived as if there were no afterlife?
Trach, I love discussion. This is great.

As to your first point, although the skeptic views it this way, and sees the clear delineation between faith and empirical evidence, I have found that 100% of Christians I speak to view the religion as fact, not belief.

To your second point, human beings typically react with apprehension when approaching the unknown. Be it a new bite of food, or a thrill ride, one tends to get anxious when they don't know what to expect. The afterlife is like this to me.

See, if religion was an empirically proven fact, and the afterlife was an empirically proven fact, and where you ended up there was a proven fact, then there would be little to fear. However, when one is aware of just how little "fact" there actually is behind Christianity, it is a bit like visiting the sausage factory. And this applied to all tenets of the faith.

So if one is convinced that Christianity is a fact, and addresses it as such (versus being an unproveable faith), then they can have confidence in the way they lead their lives and the afterlife. The can also confidently tell me that I better get things figured out before I die, or I'm going to Hell (no lie).

I am almost observing a pattern of willfully "blind" faith. I find this more interesting in those who are obviously intelligent and rational people, who see the flaws in their faith, yet illogically deny these flaws, or refuse to acknowledge that what they do have is faith. Unfortunately, I have been given a pretty good brain, and I have difficulty in self-deluding myself into believing faith is fact.

Mind you, if you have had something presented to you as fact your entire life, it takes a very strong person to state, "Yes, I acknowledge there is some circumstantial, and little to no empirical knowledge that supports my faith. However, I still choose this faith as it is what I believe. It is not fact. It is faith."

To your last point Trach, possibly I've spent a little too much time with denominations that protest how pious and Christian they are. And my experience has been that the louder the protest, the less their lives match the piousness they espouse. But if we acknowledge we sin, but can be forgiven for it, I guess this means we can sin, right?

Whereas someone who lives without this final atonement is forced to do as good as they can by whatever set of morals they have for their lives. They don't have Jesus falling on the sword for them. In some ways, I think some atheists I've met make better Christians than some of the Christians I know (at least in action, if not faith).

In fact, yesterday I had a very wealthy very pious man explain to me that the use of the term "eye of a needle" as most famously used in Matthew 19:24 (And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.) may refer to a desert rock formation that would be tight for a Camel, but that it could make it through.

My logical brain struggles with this. Not just for the empiricism, but for the malleable subjectivity that I hear from others.
SparkyMcSparky is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to SparkyMcSparky For This Useful Post:
RobbyRobot (08-01-2014), topspin (08-16-2014)
Old 07-31-2014, 03:13 PM
  # 60 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,949
Blog Entries: 1
I't not exactly blind faith for everybody Sparky...what about those who have had spiritual experiences? For them it's not blind...there are more of those people with these experiences then you might think..it's not something that comes up in everyday conversation..and if you want to refute such second hand experiences its just really denying something you have no experience with
caboblanco is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to caboblanco For This Useful Post:
jdooner (08-01-2014), SparkyMcSparky (07-31-2014)

Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off




All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:31 AM.