houdini56

I'm feeling pretty hopeful about what's available in terms of secular recovery, at least online (which is about the only option I have living where I do). I was just checking out the LifeRing website and might try one of their meetings at some point. And the more I look around these forums here at SR the more cool stuff I'm finding. I've been feeling pretty isolated from sober fellowship....and I was accepting that as just part of the journey right now...but I'm feeling much less isolated tonight. Cool.

tommyl74

I have recently found some secular recovery sites online as well. They are definitely interesting. The greatest support that I have around here are NA meetings, my sponsor and my support network...I love these guys. But they are all xtian. I am not. And I let it be known, because there may be others like me in our meetings. I am from a small area...average meeting attendance is 4-5 people. It definitely raises some questions for me as I walk through the steps, and I am hoping to find some support here for that. I am glad to be here and happy to find that I am truly not alone.

Thanks!

habschon

I, too, am finding it necessary to "edit" quite a bit as I sit in AA meetings. Just celebrated 6 years sober... grateful to have found this resource and appreciate this "thread" -- although am not completely sure what a "thread" is! Learning...

Zencat

Welcome to SoberRecovery habschon. And a big congrats on your sober time.

A thread is the string of posts that follow the the first post.

Tryin2Recover

Thanks for reminding me that I am not unique, about anything. You have basically described my exact situation, except I am just shy of 3 years sobriety. I owe it all to AA, they taught me everything I know about recovery and my new way of life. And for the last nearly 3 years I believed there was a higher power in my life; maybe god, maybe not, but I didnt have to figure that out and was ok with it. Now something is urging me to figure it out, and the more I try the less I believe in the Higher Power. I had nobody to talk to about it, didnt know how to bring it up to my sponsor, or other very close friends I had made in AA. It was very scary and uncomfortable the first few days I started having these questions and doubts, and being the extremist that I can be I flew off the handle and started to get angry, and resentful. I Felt I had been tricked by AAs, brainwashed into religion. I have since mellowed out, rediscovered my gratitude, and learned that with an open mind I can still find recovery in AA, and share my experience with others who are not as fortunate as I to have yet experienced some of the promises of recovery.

smiling jack

Checking in...a non-spiritual recovery meeting has started on Sundays in Valporaiso, IN. It needs support. Please respond if you are in the area. Thanks.

johnclavin

People places and things are beyond my control. Also the natural chemicals in my brain that determine my moods and feelings are beyond my control. For me I attribute it all to the natural laws of nature and the mathematical probability of events.

But I don’t necessarily need to worry about how the universe operates. The phases of the moon, indian summers, beautiful sunsets, and large oak trees, all existed on our planet long before human consciousness existed. The human race evolved into a system that was already there.

“So what is the point?” I forgot the point, but a power greater than myself is simply that change is inevitable.

smiling jack

My life is not ok in areas. I need to discipline myself to abstain from substitutes.

tj808

who are "undecided"--meaning they don't know if they're agnostic, atheist, spiritual or what. They had the highest rates of relapse and drank the most. I guess there's some merit when they say, "God is everything or nothing." Nothing is okay, but "I don't know" may get you into trouble.

---------------------------------------------------------

Hi,

I have just joined this forum and went straight to this section.

I totally relate to the "undecided" and "god is everything or nothing".

Over the years I came to understand the god idea as
"most people who come into recovery have little or no self parenting skills- and the higher power - god - concept is a process that helps this".

In some ways I wish I hadn't heard this because it has left me more open to (and if nothing else understanding of) the god/HP idea.

I was forced to pray in rehab and then through my sponsor in AA. I said the step 3 and 7 prayer daily for years...and it became etched into my thinking that if i didn't I would relapse..

As time went on I questioned other people's use of HP or god and most times realised most were talking about the same "person"...which confused me as I still hadn't grasped my own understanding of one....
and the sentence "may you find *him* now" just escalated that confusion..

In the end I left AA and took up with an online secular group...and "de-programmed" from alot of AA.

I recently went back to an AA meeting and I realise I have just woken up a growling black dog... that took me a while to put to sleep..

I have a mental health disorder that encompasses extreme social phobia
and I felt the need to get to F2F meeting to combat 5 years of self imposed isolation.

I have to say I haven't slept well in the last 3 days
I have lost the simplicity of why I am an alcoholic that I found away from AA..
and keep my mental health issues as seperate as possible.

There is much in AA that I love...and equally as much that I don't..

I have never been too good at taking what I need and leaving the rest..

I am glad you wrote about "undecided" etc...it has helped me think about whether to come down firmly on one side or the other..

and I know which side I feel more comfortable with.

Tim.

tj808

"God is nameless, for no man can either say or understand aught about Him. If I say, God is good, it is not true; nay more; I am good, God is not good. I may even say, I am better than God; for whatever is good, may become better, and whatever may become better, may become best. Now God is not good, for He cannot become better. And if He cannot become better, He cannot become best, for these three things, good, better, and best, are far from God, since He is above all. If I also say, God is wise, it is not true; I am wiser than He. If I also say, God is a Being, it is not true; He is transcendent Being and superessential Nothingness. Concerning this St Augustine says: the best thing that man can say about God is to be able to be silent about Him, from the wisdom of his inner judgement. Therefore be silent and prate not about God, for whenever thou dost prate about God, thou liest, and committest sin. If thou wilt be without sin, prate not about God. Thou canst understand nought about God, for He is above all understanding. A master saith: If I had a God whom I could understand, I would never hold Him to be God."

(MEISTER ECKHART)[/QUOTE]

----------------------

I love this...thank you for posting it...I have copied/paste this to my files.

The only thing that does my head in...that while this purports to no understanding of god...it still says "him"...and with a capital "H"..

It was said that any mention of the real name for god was sacrilege...

viz a vie...do not take the name in vain.

vanity...

understanding of god is vanity?

Tim

Zencat

Hi Tim, welcome to SoberRecovery.

Being "undecided" with regards to God or not God, I can see how that would cause issues in recovery. Within the the largest faith-based recovery community, there seems to be more focus IMO on a Christian like God. The the more ambiguous HP beliefs don't seem to get nearly as much attention.

I found that even tho I'm a non-theist and prefer secular addiction treatment programs. I still can find my way around in AA by using a secular understanding of a HP: The totality of AA as a guide. But that took developing, with concerted focus, a Higher Power of my understanding without the distraction of what every Tom, Dick and Bill was doing to develop their understanding of God. What I did may not be an easy task and may not be for everybody, but It works very well for me.

That's what I feel is one of the most important concepts in recovery: "to thy own self be true".

tj808

"That's what I feel is one of the most important concepts in recovery: "to thy own self be true".
----------------------------

I think this where my mental disorder comes into play...and why I struggle with AA.

I am going to look around at this forums threads on mental health..I just thought I would answer a few questions here about god/hp/..

I am glad you are able to find yourself around AA...it is something I am aiming for...

Funnily enough "to thine own self be true" was the mantra told to me many a time when I first joined an online group...it appears I haven't moved on that much since then...but as they say...progress not perfection...

tj808

"I read the Humanist version of the 12-steps "

-----------------------

Thank you for your honesty and I find it so reassuring that someone with 20 years reassesses what they are doing.

I sometimes feel incredibly inadequate with my 11 years sober...
sometimes like a newcomer...especially going back to my AA meeting after 5 years... bit traumatic...but hey-ho. I have a way to go yet before I can be true to myself in AA.

I really appreciate the Humanist 12 steps suggestion..I googled them and I like them too.

Tim.

Zencat

I too have struggled with AA. Having experienced religious trauma as a child, my personality disorder (NOS) and throw in some assorted mental illness's, I've had to practice "progress not perfection" myself. Some days I have made little progress, even regressed a bit other times. However, overall I have made progress. With a lot of persistence to get better, I feel Ive come a long way to overcome some of the difficulties that would keep me ill.

Have a look at Dual Recovery Anonymous (DRA). Ive found their meetings and program useful. Maybe DRA is something that may interest you.

tj808

[QUOTE=Zencat;2864524]I too have struggled with AA. Having experienced religious trauma as a child, my personality disorder (NOS) and throw in some assorted mental illness's, I've had to practice "progress not perfection" myself. QUOTE]

---------------

Thank you for your honesty.

I, too, have been diagnosed with a personality disorder. Avoidant personality disorder, which sort of encompassed extreme social phobia amongst other things. I would like to know what (NOS) means but if it is too personal to write about I understand.

I was actually diagnosed after I left AA because my struggles (and torment) in AA actually hid my symptoms.

I have been a bit easier on myself since being diagnosed (3 years ago)..
and I have now come back to AA with a sort of fresher mind..I do not begrudge my practicing the steps to as perfect as possible because that practice is helping me now...and even helped me while away from AA.

I will take a look at the dual diagnosis link you gave. Thanks.

I have tried a dula diagnosis group but didn;t find it to my liking

sometimes our other illness/condition is a more personal journey than the public journey of alcohol or drug meetings or online groups/forums.

I belong to an avoidant group online.

Tim

cabledude

Great when people finally catch on that no one else is interested in what you believe or hearing a list of what you don't believe-all jokes aside.

It's progress when members finally get it.

Zencat

NOS (Not Otherwise Specified) just means that I don't fit neatly into any one personality disorder but have symptoms of two or more personality disorders. That's about all I want to say about that here. I go to a group at the mental health clinic where I'm being treated for PTSD from childhood trauma. There I can freely discuss my disorders issues as well.

I'm happy that you found what works. My main dual treatments are CBT, SMART Recovery, medication and a variety of other healthy endeavors. I primarily attend AA for the meetings, tho I have worked the steps just as an exercise to see if I could do them from a secular perspective. I'm more of the "take what you need and leave the rest" type with regards to AA and NA.

"Easy dose it" and a few other slogans Ive heard in the rooms of AA have helped me. I'm no longer my worst critic.

recoverywfaith

Another perspective on the 12 steps - found the following on another website and wanted to share:
Agnostic A.A. Meetings in New York City

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol, that our lives had become unmanageable.

2. Came to believe and to accept that we needed strengths beyond our awareness and resources to restore us to sanity.

3. Made a decision to entrust our wills and our lives to the care of the collective wisdom and resources of those who have searched before us.

4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

5. Admitted to ourselves, without reservation, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

6. Were ready to accept help in letting go of all our defects of character.

7. With humility and openness sought to eliminate our shortcomings.

8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it.

11. Sought through meditation to improve our spiritual awareness and our understanding of the AA way of life and to discover the power to carry out that way of life.

12. Having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

IndyOG

That made me think of the time the church elders layed hands on my 8 yr old head and tried to pray the migraines away I was frequently having. Nothing happened and I came to the conclusion God didn't work. At least my Mom took me to the hospital and I spent a week with probes stuck in my head. They couldn't find a reason for the headaches. I believe now I was having stress headaches from a relapsing alcoholic parent. I'm pretty sure that's when I stopped believing in religions God. The praying over me wasn't really trauma but scary and confusing for a little boy.

IndyOG

I like those steps but what would be an example of a spiritual awakening in a secular sense? For me it would be the incredible change my family and associates have experienced by my sobriety and recovery. That's a miracle to me.