Agnostics and Athiests in AA....how is it going
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 26,425
crp...my sr thread list isn't working so i missed all kinds of post..have to come read later...mom here for the weekend so i may not get to check in much...can't wait to see what you all have to say....
big book is just a book.....my best thinking got me here...and i see that as a good thing...i mean i'm in recovery right!!!! and one of the slogan's is think think think...lots of paradoxes though..gotta learn to live with taht aspect of life i guess
later guys..don't beat me up too much while i'm gone ok!
DK.....i miss talking to you...gotta schedule a coffee date soon ok?
big book is just a book.....my best thinking got me here...and i see that as a good thing...i mean i'm in recovery right!!!! and one of the slogan's is think think think...lots of paradoxes though..gotta learn to live with taht aspect of life i guess
later guys..don't beat me up too much while i'm gone ok!
DK.....i miss talking to you...gotta schedule a coffee date soon ok?
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 26,425
struggling with certain things in my aa program right now..will right more later in the week if i can as i have all this stupid packing and other house move related stuff....but the new house will be fun
don't wanna loose track of the reward at the end of all this....
don't wanna loose track of the reward at the end of all this....
Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Northeast US
Posts: 1,340
AA has continued to be my rock this week through some pretty monumental stress. I see the light at the end of the tunnel with getting fully back into school while continuing to work full time. (And yet more technical difficulties that have kept me out of SR- I moved and my new WiFi connection won't let me onto the forums!) I really was losing it but with the help of AA and dare I say it, my HP, I'm still sober and even lucid! Woohoo...
I've missed you all. I wish technology wasn't so fickle.
I've missed you all. I wish technology wasn't so fickle.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 26,425
so well i have been struggling with the sponsorship question in aa a while now...i misssed another call to her tonight...was chatting with friends and actually doing more inside work that way then i do when i try to talk with her.....
there are massive amounts of sorting and analizing to do in the 4th step and then carry on to the others...much as people would like to say it isn't the case...sorry at least for me there is...to fully understand my behaviors their causes and the interconnectedness of how i came to be where i am today.
made a searching and fearless moral inventory
ok so i don't buy the word moral...but i do believe very very strongly that without a searching and fearless inventory of my "self" i am very unlikely to be able to correctly walk through the changes that become clear to me as i face life sober...awake....
I think that has been the missing key all these months...not that i didn't do a thourogh inventory, but that i haven't really looked at it from a proper perspective..has missed important keys within it.....
not sure how i will deal with sponosrship as i consider it to be something very different from the crazy relationships i have sometimes seen called sponsorship lol
anyways that's where i am on this today.
there are massive amounts of sorting and analizing to do in the 4th step and then carry on to the others...much as people would like to say it isn't the case...sorry at least for me there is...to fully understand my behaviors their causes and the interconnectedness of how i came to be where i am today.
made a searching and fearless moral inventory
ok so i don't buy the word moral...but i do believe very very strongly that without a searching and fearless inventory of my "self" i am very unlikely to be able to correctly walk through the changes that become clear to me as i face life sober...awake....
I think that has been the missing key all these months...not that i didn't do a thourogh inventory, but that i haven't really looked at it from a proper perspective..has missed important keys within it.....
not sure how i will deal with sponosrship as i consider it to be something very different from the crazy relationships i have sometimes seen called sponsorship lol
anyways that's where i am on this today.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 26,425
Oh yeah..just a reminder of what this was originally a thread for....hope those of you who are interested in the steps and/or aa without god will post your expereinces within aa and/or with the steps.
I love hearing how people expereince this and stuff.... :ghug
I love hearing how people expereince this and stuff.... :ghug
Originally Posted by ananda 
Hi,
Thought maybe we could start a thread specifically for those trying to attend AA and/or work the steps without a belief in God.
Seems there are lots of us doing that and we could use some support from each other.
I hope that this will not become a debate thread abut the existance of god, but will be used to provide support. Debates could be started on a new thread...ok?
Thanks all and hope some of you respond, cause I know there are many of you out there.
Thought maybe we could start a thread specifically for those trying to attend AA and/or work the steps without a belief in God.
Seems there are lots of us doing that and we could use some support from each other.
I hope that this will not become a debate thread abut the existance of god, but will be used to provide support. Debates could be started on a new thread...ok?
Thanks all and hope some of you respond, cause I know there are many of you out there.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 18,299
For the alcoholic, A.A. offers the directions. A vital factor, or ingredient of the preventive, especially for the alcoholic, is sustained emotion. The alcoholic who learns some of the techniques or the mechanics of A.A. but misses the philosophy or the spirit may get tired off following directions - not because he is alcoholic, but because he is human. Rules and regulations irk almost anyone, because they are restraining, prohibitive, negative. The philosophy of A.A. however, is positive and provides ample sustained emotion - a sustained desire to follow directions voluntarily.
"The alcoholic who learns some of the techniques or the mechanics of A.A. but misses the philosophy or the spirit may get tired off following directions"...how true!
I struggled with the program for a long time but at some point I realised I was in agreement with the spirit of the program i.e. spiritual growth and I also realised that we have to "personalise" the program to ourselves, it has to become "ours"....so now it has become second-nature and not struggle, and it isn't difficult to follow anymore, challenging sometimes but no longer a struggle.
So, this is where I am ATM.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 58
More on steps for atheists
I will attend two AA meetings today as an atheist and, as almost always happens, will probably bring away some useful nugget that helps me.
The reason I want to find a set of steps without "god" is because I think what allows AA to work is a definable process, a set of steps that can be described and then followed.
The mantra about "working the steps" makes sense, I just think the steps that use "god" are an artificial construct even though one that works for people who choose to believe.
I may think, do think, it's silly and naive to create this Santa Claus figure, sort of Harvey the rabbit, but if that's what it takes, who am I to quarrel with it?
In the groups I attend there are, I'm guessing, about 10-15% who express reservations about "god" and still get substantial therapeutic benefit from the meeting and steps.
We're developing a secret wink and handshake. I'm thinking about a secret cell that meets covertly in my home.
My observation tells me about 20% of the people in my meetings are emotionally unstable, insecure, immature and suffering issues that are present apart from alcoholism and still they get benefit and often sobriety.
So something is at work here, including steps.
My goal is just to find what this core process is and try to refine it so it works better for an atheist like me. If you can link me to some information, please do. I see no need to reinvent the wheel and I'm sure some people smarter than I have worked through this.
Given that AA as a culture is defensive about change, even rigid, I don't suggest or intend to seek that. Rather, because it's widely available and does a lot of good, my hope is find a place within AA for my (non) belief system.
To my eyes, the courts are absolutely correct. AA is a religion. It walks like duck, quacks like a duck and looks like a duck; it is a duck.
Fair enough. I've attended many churches over the years not hiding my beliefs and still benefiting from the social, cultural and other benefits. Listening to statements and testimonials of belief, conversion, visions and instructions from "god" I find amusing but not for me to criticize anymore than I would attack someone for being a Republican or a Democrat. I know I'm not going to change anyone's fundamental belief system.
This matter of "spirituality" is as cunning and baffling as alcoholism. It looks like just a tepid substitute for "god."
Help me Rhonda, help me understand what you mean.
What's the difference between "spirits" and "god"?
Not that it matters, if it works. I'm just curious.
This I know to be true: For all its flaws, I'm sober because of AA.
Yours in the struggle...
The reason I want to find a set of steps without "god" is because I think what allows AA to work is a definable process, a set of steps that can be described and then followed.
The mantra about "working the steps" makes sense, I just think the steps that use "god" are an artificial construct even though one that works for people who choose to believe.
I may think, do think, it's silly and naive to create this Santa Claus figure, sort of Harvey the rabbit, but if that's what it takes, who am I to quarrel with it?
In the groups I attend there are, I'm guessing, about 10-15% who express reservations about "god" and still get substantial therapeutic benefit from the meeting and steps.
We're developing a secret wink and handshake. I'm thinking about a secret cell that meets covertly in my home.
My observation tells me about 20% of the people in my meetings are emotionally unstable, insecure, immature and suffering issues that are present apart from alcoholism and still they get benefit and often sobriety.
So something is at work here, including steps.
My goal is just to find what this core process is and try to refine it so it works better for an atheist like me. If you can link me to some information, please do. I see no need to reinvent the wheel and I'm sure some people smarter than I have worked through this.
Given that AA as a culture is defensive about change, even rigid, I don't suggest or intend to seek that. Rather, because it's widely available and does a lot of good, my hope is find a place within AA for my (non) belief system.
To my eyes, the courts are absolutely correct. AA is a religion. It walks like duck, quacks like a duck and looks like a duck; it is a duck.
Fair enough. I've attended many churches over the years not hiding my beliefs and still benefiting from the social, cultural and other benefits. Listening to statements and testimonials of belief, conversion, visions and instructions from "god" I find amusing but not for me to criticize anymore than I would attack someone for being a Republican or a Democrat. I know I'm not going to change anyone's fundamental belief system.
This matter of "spirituality" is as cunning and baffling as alcoholism. It looks like just a tepid substitute for "god."
Help me Rhonda, help me understand what you mean.
What's the difference between "spirits" and "god"?
Not that it matters, if it works. I'm just curious.
This I know to be true: For all its flaws, I'm sober because of AA.
Yours in the struggle...
Knucklehead
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Davenport, WA
Posts: 4,005
Dr. Lizardking's Adaptation of the Twelve Steps for the Rationalist
1. In recognition of the detriment that my addiction has caused, I have a firm unyielding commitment to stay clean and sober in all circumstances, no exceptions.
2. I understand that some situations may require a little help from my friends, or professional guidance, I'm willing to accept that help which I find to be beneficial to my recovery.
3. Work to make changes in my life and develop a different life-style that is more conducive to sobriety.
4. Acquire awareness of my behaviors, and build a firm understanding of those behaviors that are advantageous to my continued sobriety.
5. Exchange information with others in order to expand my understanding of behaviors and attitudes that create a higher quality of life.
6. Establish reasonable and attainable goals in order to grow and learn in my journey.
7. Work toward those goals to the best of my ability.
8. Discover the damages that I have done in the past that may be an obstacle to my further growth and/or my emotional well-being.
9. Do what is possible and reasonable to repair such damages.
10. Maintain an awareness of my behavior and attitudes, avoid any actions that may be detrimental to myself or others.
11. Increase my level of self-awareness, body of knowledge, and ability to think clearly. I take full responsibility for all my behaviors and actions. I learn from my experiences, and the experiences and knowledge of others. I look to the future with an optimistic curiosity.
12. I use the knowledge, experience, and understanding that I have gained to offer assistance to those that have the desire to achieve sobriety. Respecting such persons' autonomy and well-being, my only concern is for their success in sobriety and improved quality of life.
1. In recognition of the detriment that my addiction has caused, I have a firm unyielding commitment to stay clean and sober in all circumstances, no exceptions.
2. I understand that some situations may require a little help from my friends, or professional guidance, I'm willing to accept that help which I find to be beneficial to my recovery.
3. Work to make changes in my life and develop a different life-style that is more conducive to sobriety.
4. Acquire awareness of my behaviors, and build a firm understanding of those behaviors that are advantageous to my continued sobriety.
5. Exchange information with others in order to expand my understanding of behaviors and attitudes that create a higher quality of life.
6. Establish reasonable and attainable goals in order to grow and learn in my journey.
7. Work toward those goals to the best of my ability.
8. Discover the damages that I have done in the past that may be an obstacle to my further growth and/or my emotional well-being.
9. Do what is possible and reasonable to repair such damages.
10. Maintain an awareness of my behavior and attitudes, avoid any actions that may be detrimental to myself or others.
11. Increase my level of self-awareness, body of knowledge, and ability to think clearly. I take full responsibility for all my behaviors and actions. I learn from my experiences, and the experiences and knowledge of others. I look to the future with an optimistic curiosity.
12. I use the knowledge, experience, and understanding that I have gained to offer assistance to those that have the desire to achieve sobriety. Respecting such persons' autonomy and well-being, my only concern is for their success in sobriety and improved quality of life.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Glitzville
Posts: 334
Originally Posted by e4r5t6
I will attend two AA meetings today as an atheist and, as almost always happens, will probably bring away some useful nugget that helps me.
The reason I want to find a set of steps without "god" is because I think what allows AA to work is a definable process, a set of steps that can be described and then followed.
The mantra about "working the steps" makes sense, I just think the steps that use "god" are an artificial construct even though one that works for people who choose to believe.
I may think, do think, it's silly and naive to create this Santa Claus figure, sort of Harvey the rabbit, but if that's what it takes, who am I to quarrel with it?
In the groups I attend there are, I'm guessing, about 10-15% who express reservations about "god" and still get substantial therapeutic benefit from the meeting and steps.
We're developing a secret wink and handshake. I'm thinking about a secret cell that meets covertly in my home.
My observation tells me about 20% of the people in my meetings are emotionally unstable, insecure, immature and suffering issues that are present apart from alcoholism and still they get benefit and often sobriety.
So something is at work here, including steps.
My goal is just to find what this core process is and try to refine it so it works better for an atheist like me. If you can link me to some information, please do. I see no need to reinvent the wheel and I'm sure some people smarter than I have worked through this.
Given that AA as a culture is defensive about change, even rigid, I don't suggest or intend to seek that. Rather, because it's widely available and does a lot of good, my hope is find a place within AA for my (non) belief system.
To my eyes, the courts are absolutely correct. AA is a religion. It walks like duck, quacks like a duck and looks like a duck; it is a duck.
Fair enough. I've attended many churches over the years not hiding my beliefs and still benefiting from the social, cultural and other benefits. Listening to statements and testimonials of belief, conversion, visions and instructions from "god" I find amusing but not for me to criticize anymore than I would attack someone for being a Republican or a Democrat. I know I'm not going to change anyone's fundamental belief system.
This matter of "spirituality" is as cunning and baffling as alcoholism. It looks like just a tepid substitute for "god."
Help me Rhonda, help me understand what you mean.
What's the difference between "spirits" and "god"?
Not that it matters, if it works. I'm just curious.
This I know to be true: For all its flaws, I'm sober because of AA.
Yours in the struggle...
The reason I want to find a set of steps without "god" is because I think what allows AA to work is a definable process, a set of steps that can be described and then followed.
The mantra about "working the steps" makes sense, I just think the steps that use "god" are an artificial construct even though one that works for people who choose to believe.
I may think, do think, it's silly and naive to create this Santa Claus figure, sort of Harvey the rabbit, but if that's what it takes, who am I to quarrel with it?
In the groups I attend there are, I'm guessing, about 10-15% who express reservations about "god" and still get substantial therapeutic benefit from the meeting and steps.
We're developing a secret wink and handshake. I'm thinking about a secret cell that meets covertly in my home.
My observation tells me about 20% of the people in my meetings are emotionally unstable, insecure, immature and suffering issues that are present apart from alcoholism and still they get benefit and often sobriety.
So something is at work here, including steps.
My goal is just to find what this core process is and try to refine it so it works better for an atheist like me. If you can link me to some information, please do. I see no need to reinvent the wheel and I'm sure some people smarter than I have worked through this.
Given that AA as a culture is defensive about change, even rigid, I don't suggest or intend to seek that. Rather, because it's widely available and does a lot of good, my hope is find a place within AA for my (non) belief system.
To my eyes, the courts are absolutely correct. AA is a religion. It walks like duck, quacks like a duck and looks like a duck; it is a duck.
Fair enough. I've attended many churches over the years not hiding my beliefs and still benefiting from the social, cultural and other benefits. Listening to statements and testimonials of belief, conversion, visions and instructions from "god" I find amusing but not for me to criticize anymore than I would attack someone for being a Republican or a Democrat. I know I'm not going to change anyone's fundamental belief system.
This matter of "spirituality" is as cunning and baffling as alcoholism. It looks like just a tepid substitute for "god."
Help me Rhonda, help me understand what you mean.
What's the difference between "spirits" and "god"?
Not that it matters, if it works. I'm just curious.
This I know to be true: For all its flaws, I'm sober because of AA.
Yours in the struggle...
I so appreciate what you've expressed here.
God = "Santa Claus figure, sort of Harvey the rabbit"
spirit = (one definition among many) The essential nature of a person or group.
I don't know but I suspect that the "essential nature" is one of goodness in the sense of humanism. Without the constraint of undue ego fear, we are decent human beings who look out for one another and find satisfaction with our own lives.
I can make all kinds of logical, beneficial choices for myself, but I can't regulate the beating of my heart or the breaths that sustain my life. That is locked somewhere in my subconscious. So are many of the fears that restrain my happiness (serenity).
So I think the steps have a measurable way of unlocking patterns of fear and releasing them for the individual. The group exerts its influence collectively, much, to my way of thinking and in a much broader sense, as did the framers of the constitution.
As Socrates stated, "The unexamined life is not worth living."
And it's okay if I don't have all the answers, that life can be knowable and still be a mystery. That AA can be good for me and others, regardless of how some may view it from their own personal lenses or their prior experiences. It's only my experience that counts for me, and I can't complain so far.
So I continue to examine. I'm still sober, and grateful to AA for being available to a non-theist like me.
Thanks.
problem with authority
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 870
mountain or molehill?
As an agnostic and active member of A.A., I myself have never seen what exactly the big deal was with the Higher Power thing.
This is my first time visiting this particular forum in the year that I have been on this site. And although I probably agree with and see things about the same as many people on here, the sense of needing to be apart from "mainstream A.A." is totally foreign to me.
But that's just me. I can be useful by going to my meetings and sharing my experience as an atheist who is successfully working the program without a lot of Sturm and Drang.
M
This is my first time visiting this particular forum in the year that I have been on this site. And although I probably agree with and see things about the same as many people on here, the sense of needing to be apart from "mainstream A.A." is totally foreign to me.
But that's just me. I can be useful by going to my meetings and sharing my experience as an atheist who is successfully working the program without a lot of Sturm and Drang.
M
Member
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 18,299
It isn't a big deal for me anymore either FI, though it did used to get on my nerves when people started shouting about God.
Also, AA isn't just meetings it is the program, the steps and the word is mentioned a lot!
Came to believe a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity, I still am not sure about. I just know that trying to grow spiritually and trying to do the right thing and living in the day (in the present) seems to be giving me more sanity than I have ever had, not that I ever had much. And at the same time my desire to drink seems to have gone.
Also, AA isn't just meetings it is the program, the steps and the word is mentioned a lot!
Came to believe a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity, I still am not sure about. I just know that trying to grow spiritually and trying to do the right thing and living in the day (in the present) seems to be giving me more sanity than I have ever had, not that I ever had much. And at the same time my desire to drink seems to have gone.
Your attitude, not your aptitude, will determine your altitude
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oxnard (The Nard), CA, USA.
Posts: 14,146
Originally Posted by windysan
If I'm too stupid to understand higher powers, religion, gods, and all that jazz does that make me an agnostic?
thank you very much.
W
thank you very much.
W
. I've wasted my time trying to understand why people believe in God, God's, Goddess and 'all that jazz'. And all that got me was vehement frustration expressed as hot blooded anger 
.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 18,299
Originally Posted by windysan
If I'm too stupid to understand higher powers, religion, gods, and all that jazz does that make me an agnostic?
thank you very much.
W
thank you very much.
W
I tend to just thing everything is god, if you wanna call it god.
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