kk1k5x

I hope so, mate. You're just digging yourself in deeper and deeper with those beers. You know and I know that it's not going have a pleasant end. No crescendo or fanfare, just damaged internal organs and nausea and headaches from hell.

taplow

Also kk1k5x I'd apologise about the other day but what's the point?

taplow

Yeah I get it, I get it. Thanks.

Obladi

Yes, as a matter of fact it does. In this regard, I seem to be most definitely not among the majority and I'm ok with it. See, for years, people have been telling me things like, "You're too smart for your own good," "You're getting in your own way," "You think too much," and "You're using intellectualization as a deflection." And while I didn't believe that to be true, I heeded those captions of myself and tried to not think so much, to act like other people seem to, to whistle in the wind and just power through all of the discomfort. Going with other people's definition of me was detrimental to my own mental health. Letting others determine that I was wrong just made me feel more wrong and wronger still when I couldn't get healthy doing things their way.

I've said this other places, but I'll repeat it here at the risk of repeating something you already know about me. Three years ago, I didn't know what a feeling was - or maybe it was more that I couldn't identify what my feelings were. My therapist would say, "How do you feel about that?" And I would respond, "I feel fine," or "I think that this happened because abcdefg," or "That person who said those things to me has her own struggles, so I understand that qrstuv." My very patient therapist had to coach me, "What physical reaction do you have about that?" Slowly, slowly I learned that feelings are literally physical. Does everyone know that? I don't know, but I didn't.

So what I learned about myself is that I was handling the stickiest of my problems entirely in my head. I was so distant from my emotions that I couldn't even begin to put together the physical feeling with what the emotional feeling was. I'd be in the midst of an anxiety attack and think, "I wonder what's bothering me?" And most of the time I sincerely didn't know. I'd report to the therapist over and over again that I'd started drinking again and when he asked me why, I'd vacillate between saying flippantly, "Because I'm an alcoholic" and speculating with earnestness, "I think maybe it was related to this event or that other event." But I never knew why, not really. So that part of my intellectual abilities certainly wasn't serving me. Studying myself from the outside as if I were my very own case study was sometimes interesting and sometimes provided some insight, but it didn't stop me drinking. I feel like I always knew that drinking was a symptom of something else, but I either couldn't figure out what that "else" was, or if I got too close would think there was no way I could fix that. Because my problem was me. How in the world could I fix who I am?

Something happened in December that caused me to refer to that relapse as "the best ever." The scales started falling from my eyes, and with the help of my therapist I was able to piece together that drinking against my own wishes was the work of my ten-year old brain. That deeply ingrained path from childhood "stuff" only knew to Run Away from emotionally traumatic/threatening circumstances - "she" didn't know how to cope with things as an adult. Once I realized that, I was on cloud 9! "Well, I can certainly deal with those things as an adult!" "I definitely don't need to drink over it." But remember, I didn't know how to identify my feelings, much less where they were coming from. This is where my intellect and self-knowledge became very useful to me.

I started doing this exercise every time I was upset over something (which was surprisingly often once I actually paid attention instead of blowing it off): Wow, I am really upset about this thing we were talking about in group. Let me figure out what happened and what was upsetting about that. What connections was I making? Ok, I think I factually "get" what I was disagreeing with, let me validate that with a person who will be able to follow my logic about this particular topic. Alright then, that made sense to the other person. So... what feeling is related to that conclusion? What does it put me in mind of from my own history? Ahhh... that makes sense! And finally, after having pieced that all together, I was able to let a piece of that history go. Not let it go in a forgetting way, but let it go in an understanding, "you no longer have any power over me" sort of way. Exhausting? You bet. Did I get to the same end result as someone who didn't have to put themselves through all of those mental exercises? Maybe, probably? But that's how my brain works and I'm ok with it. I'm guessing that with practice I'll be able to run through this whole routine much more quickly, and indeed that has been my experience. The first time I did this, it took more than a day of really hard work. Lately it's more like an hour or two. Sometimes less.

The reason this makes sense in my convoluted mind is because once I find "it," the locus of this particular emotion, I can naturally and easily sort of neutralize it. "That makes perfect sense, self. Of course you would have that emotional response given your well-worn thought patterns." Giving myself permission to feel the way I feel and to understand where that's coming from helps me to then remove the judgement from myself and move along. It is neither good nor bad that I felt threatened by my coworker's actions the other day, but it is good that I was able to recognize that and then speak with him about it very frankly and completely devoid of drama. That kept me sober one more day.

I like my brain. It's clever and quirky and it's all I've got, so I think I'll keep it.

taplow

Crikey Obladi that's a hell of a War and Peace you've posted there. I can't even sit up properly at the moment so it's best I don't reply. I'll try and take it in and consider it when I'm living in tomorrow. I'm fairly intoxicated at the moment you understand.

taplow

Crikey Obladi that's a hell of a War and Peace you've posted there. I can't even sit up properly at the moment so it's best I don't reply. I'll try and take it in and consider it when I'm living in tomorrow. I'm fairly intoxicated at the moment you understand.

taplow

Crikey Obladi that's a hell of a War and Peace you've posted there. I can't even sit up properly at the moment so it's best I don't reply. I'll try and take it in and consider it when I'm living in tomorrow. I'm fairly intoxicated at the moment you understand.

Obladi

Yup, lots of words. Maybe you'll relate when you sober up, maybe not.

in either event, I hope tomorrow is the day you do sober up.

taplow

Oh I've woken up. I pressed it and I wondered why it wouldn't post so I pressed it again and again and then again . I'm not feeling well Obladi. I'm going to bed. But then what I wrote is so good it's worth reading 3 times. Someone's let my tyres down.

Philemon

I hope you don't mind me cutting in taplow.
But Obladi, I understand what you mean. I did therapy and realized that in order to not experience (feel)emotions I had , for years I intellectualized them.
It's much easier to think your way out of things than to feel your way out.
I think that's what you do too taplow. You think over stuff it would be more healing to feel.
The more I keep drinking the more I have taken up that unhealthy habit again of trying to think my way out of what I would do better feeling my way out of.
Surprisingly hard to explain 🙈

timi0000

Taplow, even when I was in the 12 Steps I found it hard to quit my addiction, until 2 things happened. First, after trying so many ways to quit my addiction, I turned my life over to my Higher Power. I just said "God, I give my life to you, come into my life". And I MEANT IT! I wasn't just saying the words with no real intent behind them.
Secondly, when I became more loving towards the people around me by doing loving thing toward them and helping them, that's when I really became able to drop my addiction. I try to help people in as many ways as I can think (that's why I post on this forum). I truly believe my addiction was meant for me to grow in love and in my relationship with my Higher Power.

taplow

Obladi, I don't mean that just you think too much, I think nearly everyone does - me included. I just don't see that it accomplishes much that's all. You just end up with more rules while you want to carry on in the same old way. That's why everyone's confused - definitely me included.
When you say feelings, do you mean bad feelings? Is it right to keep dredging them up? But then if it's working for you as it seems to be, then that can only be good. I don't think it would work for me though. In December you realised something painful happened when you were 10 years old that caused you to react self destructively. Was this awareness something you verbalised or was it something that you just saw? I think they're different ways of understanding. Intellectualising is too complicated for me. You can have the happiness but what good does defining it do.
Anyway don't listen to me please. Most people hardly ever listen to each other anyway, not fundamentally. I'm very glad you're happy now or rather have achieved a happier state. You deserve it you're a good person, intelligent and think for yourself - they're the best type - and I wish you well. And I'm certainly not suggesting you change your brain. Why should you? I wouldn't change mine either despite where it's taken me.

Hello Doriss and timi0000 I hope you're doing okay.

Dee74

have you met the Internet?

I think you have some worthwhile things to say Tap.

D

Obladi

tap, I'm glad to see you were up at a reasonable hour and reasonably coherent this morning.
Does that mean this is the day?
That's the most important thing, here.

Like Doriss said, it can be hard to explain. In work emails, I used to be a person of few words. It caused some confusion and irritation because I say so little that people missed that my single sentence conveyed my entire directive/comment/response. So I've learned to use more words to sort of fluff it up - seems to have helped. In spoken word, I've still tended toward being concise. Because most people don't have a very long attention span. The only way I can have a prayer of being understood about this feelings stuff seems to be to find an open ear that cares to try to understand. And it takes a lot of words.

I do care what you have to say. First off, you're not telling me what to do or (worse by far) how to be. Seems to me that you are asking questions about me sincerely and also offering your personal perspective. That's a conversation, and I would never "not listen" to you in conversation. I think you are an intelligent guy who is trying to figure stuff out. Same. Except I'm a woman.

Alright, I'm going to break this response up so it doesn't hit you like a wall of words and knock you out.

Obladi

Oh, one more thing: about the permission you granted me to disregard. Though I'd love for you to understand me for my own selfish reasons, my offerings here are only meant to challenge your intended disregard for your feelings or thoughts. If it gets boring or I start sounding like a blowfish looks, just tell me.

Quote:

When you say feelings, do you mean bad feelings? Is it right to keep dredging them up? But then if it's working for you as it seems to be, then that can only be good. I don't think it would work for me though. In December you realised something painful happened when you were 10 years old that caused you to react self destructively. Was this awareness something you verbalised or was it something that you just saw? I think they're different ways of understanding. Intellectualising is too complicated for me. You can have the happiness but what good does defining it do.

When I say feelings, I mean disturbing feelings. Physical feelings of discomfort that signal emotional dis-ease. The feelings are neither good nor bad; they just point to something within myself that's "off."

Is it right to keep dredging them up? No, I don't think so. At least I don't think that serves any purpose or porpoise unless I want to be miserable. But "I" don't keep dredging them up. They happen. My upbringing and socialization told me that I should ignore them, or power through them, or dispute them. All of those tactics, for me, resulted in increased anxiety, depression, and drinking.

In December, I realized that this thing that kept coming up over all of these years from my childhood was connected to thoughts and reactions to current situations that put my 10-year old self in mind of being powerless and not heard. To boot, I acknowledged that the type of bullying and ostracization I was subjected to during grade school had a much more profound impact on me than I'd ever understood It's surreal to me, but I realized that although "I" intellectually know that those situations were somehow impactful, I didn't realize there was a direct link. Event > (unknown thought) > feeling > failed attempt to understand > drink. It seems from anecdotal evidence that many if not most other people can skip the (unknown thought) and attempt to understand. That's just not how my brain works, or worked. It would go on the fritz and drinking was the cure. Me? I had to use my vast powers of intellect to unearth the (unknown thought) and neutralize it. I'm not proposing this is the best way for anyone but me, but then again I don't think I'm the only stripedy tiger in the sea.

So I guess in the end I'm refuting the oft-repeated seemingly one-size-fits-all wisdom that thinking our way out of the problem is futile. Sure, if you (I) leave it all cerebral, that likely won't help, although those AVRT people would argue otherwise. I respect that. I fervently believe there are many paths to lasting sobriety and that the slogan on those AA chips is dead on - "To thine own self be true."

And I'm saying in a very long roundabout way, "Don't discount your own gut." If your gut says "I just have to power through, that's all there is to it, feelings be damned," then by all means go for it. Apparently that works for a lot of folks. It just didn't work for me until I allowed the feelings to be exposed to a closer investigation and, perhaps ironically, find the underlying thought/belief and its origin so that I could let go of the feeling.

Thanks for asking.

O

Fusion

Good luck with your court case tomorrow, Tap. I'm shocked that you've been charged with graffiti last week, and due in court so soon. Have the authorities nothing better to do, given the impact of the pandemic. Surely an on the spot fine and being handed, and using, a graffiti eraser, would've been more beneficial, and less costly than a court process? Oh well.

Yes, I like the mono-syllable. I call you Tap, because I don't like the connotations of the word "low".

taplow

Hi Obladi, I'm always interested in what you say but I don't always understand the processes you use. Methods of therapy can be a bit alien but I'm interested in the architecture of the mind you describe. I've never delved into psychological matters, well not to any significant degree. As regards drinking I think people either want to do it or don't and then there's all the problem people like most on here who want to do it but also don't want to do it. That's when you're in a civil war situation in the head.
Yes you have to trust your gut instinct. That's when you know something isn't it? "I must buy that house, I must have that car, I love you, I hate you and that goldfish is annoying me." As for dredging things up well that's a bad idea then. But if they rise up like a beast from the swamp then I don't know. My first natural gut feeling is that it should be free to roam the countryside doing the usual things these beasts do in films - attacking 1950's courting couples in cars and suchlike. But then usually the military end up obiterating them so that's not very clear.
I sound quite jovial but I follow what you say but have to interpret it in the simple terms of a half-wit. You've obviously been through a lot and I'm glad you're emerging out of the other side. It seems like you use the intellect acting as a voiceover to run alongside the reality of what's going on in there.
As for being consice, well what's better than, the invisible worm that flies in the night, in howling storm has found out thy bed of crimson joy, and his dark secret love does thy life destroy.
Keep on going Obladi. All the best.

taplow

The court case couldn't have gone better; I was acquitted and I left the court with only the usual stains on me. I defended myself which seems a controversial tactic but it's something that I've done before - I had previously been a defendant in a complicated financial and contractual dispute as well as urinating through someone's letterbox
The trial today was hard to predict but to the hushed court the judge's summing up was masterly though slightly ruined because he insisted on inhaling helium. Nevertheless with the jury deadlocked it was ruled that the case would be settled by an arm wrestling competition which was granted in my favour after the prosecuting counsel was seen kicking me under the table.
I was carried shoulder high by my jubilant supporters who later dumped me in a convenient river.

And Tats, as regards the single syllable name, doesn't it make me just half the man I used to be?​​​​​​

Philemon

Glad you made it out of that river. Next time you are in court, maybe you should take in a deflated balloon incase you win and ask the judge to inflate it with his helium for you as you are carried shoulder high by your jubilant supporters past him? Then you can float your way out of it? Just a thought.
Seriously though, hope you make your way out of the haze soon.

Obladi

What's the deal with drinking/not drinking today, my friend?