Proud2BeSober

I don't think we are overcomplicating it. It's a very complicated disease. Many of us want nothing more than to quit yet we still keep drinking. It doesn't make any sense and it is very frustrating. If it was so easy to understand and fix there would be no rehabs and there wouldn't be a website like this.

WaterOx

Yes I’m having a hard time understanding this thread. Where exactly has anyone denied responsibility?

Bonniefloyd

Good thread. Some thoughts on the topic:

I’ve tried to stop using the word “slip” because I realize how it comes off to some people, but for me I don’t mind the word. I don’t think of it as an accidental occurance, it’s just that so much of this is about maintaining a certain mindset and then remaining vigilant as we adjust our lives and develop new habits. So when I “slip” it’s not so much about the act of taking a drink, it’s about slipping back into old thought patterns that lead up to my bad choices. I always own my choice though.

And then when I choose to drink, it helps me afterward to deconstruct whatever triggered me and my thoughts in reaction to that trigger. When I look back at my old posts shortly before a relapse, I get a pretty good idea where, when, and how I should have stopped and tried to fix my thinking. When I think about why I drank, it’s not to give myself an excuse, it’s to be ready to handle myself better next time.

All that aside, it actually is a simple choice though. This is what I remind myself now when I find that I’ve let my mind wander too far down the wrong path.

JustTony

I don't agree that it is a disease. Sorry. I'm sure there are a lot of people that disagree with me and a lot that feel the opposite. On this one it is best to agree to differ.

In fairness I never really spoke about responsibility other than my dislike for the word 'slip', which I consider to have disingenuous connotations . I posted about motivations. But on the subject of responsibility you're right that a lot of people do take 100% responsibility (I do for example) - but a lot of members will give a huge list of mitigations when they relapse. We have all sorts on here - which is a great thing for balance.

Proud2BeSober

That's fine and I didn't for a very long time myself but I think we can agree that addiction is not logical. Anything that isn't logical tends to be at least somewhat complicated.

JustTony

And I think that the word complicated is at the heart of my ruminations? Is it complicated because it is an emotional, mental and psychological thing (the brain is a very complicated organ) or is it complicated because of the affliction itself?

For me it seems uncomplicated. I don't drink when I want sobriety more than I want to drink. When I return to alcohol I ALWAYS do it deliberately....

I think there are all different kinds of alcoholics just as there are all different kinds of people in general. For example the physical craving of needing a drink has never, ever been something I have experienced. I always drank because I just wanted to join in or because I was bored. I see people who say "I needed to drink to take the edge off" and that kind of thing. That physical dependency on 'topping up'.... I've never had that although I do shake on night one of sobriety so my body seems to want it but that has never translated into the action of drinking for me.

Maybe my OP question depends on where you are at within the recovery process and what type of alcoholic you are? I don't know?

Thanks for all the replies.

JT

Proud2BeSober

I can only speak for myself but I know there's been times I've used when I had every intention of not using. I think there's a point where an addict loses control. You can call it a cop out you can call it an excuse but it is what I believe because it has happened to me.

I find it very hard to believe many of the people out there who have ruined their lives due to addiction wanted to ruin their lives. Some of those quotes you have up there to me are just the addiction talking and not us. We all know what the end result will be if we drink and it is almost never good.

August252015

Getting so far into the weeds on stuff is, to me, essentially a quest for "why." And that didn't do me any good. As the saying goes, "some people are too smart for AA but no one is too stupid."

Perhaps the issue is....what's working for YOU? What brings you greater peace of mind...or more restlessness? What is bringing me the best possible sober life? That's what I focus on - so, my understanding is that alcoholism is a disease (I believe in the genetic factor; I also believe environmental factors, choices, etc have an impact) and can share more thoughts on that; I also don't believe in triggers or bottoms, and as I said before I detest the word slip. Could share more thoughts on the reasons I said all that too.

End of the day, at some point my intellectual quest or my need for "definition" and so on had to be something I just let go.

It truly does not matter why I am an alcoholic. I just am, at the end of the day. So, my own real question is: what do I do about it? And then I go from there, 1097 days ago - and today.

Stayingsassy

Even in the darkest parts of sobriety: And things got pretty damned dark, I didn’t want my drinking self back.

So to a certain extent, you are correct. You have to want to change your identity. Shed the old and become the new.

People who have not been scared sh!tless enough, or become disgusted enough, or strayed far from their self concept enough, will not hold tightly to that new identity. It’s hard and difficult sometimes, so that desire to be sober has to overcome that.

My new identity does not permit drinking. It doesn’t belong. It’s anathema to me. It grosses me out to see people get chemically dosed up...red cheeks, slurred words, lost balance, lost logic. It’s become “not me.” People who drink are “other.” People I love and care about still drink. It’s fine. I’ll still hang out. But the drinking they do has NOTHING to do with me. The me that I am now is protected by sobriety. And I alone protect myself.

This identity is important to me. I remind myself of it every day. I tell friends who don’t know yet. I make continuous decisions about it on a daily basis. My sobriety is not a choice, one and done. It is a lifestyle.

So: I am a sober person, I am a mom, I am a daughter, I am a wife, I am a professional, I am a pet owner, I am a gardener.....please note which item is first. That is not an accident.

August252015

Brilliantly said, Sassy. My phrase for this is that "recovery is the backdrop of my life." It's everything - my worldview, my filter for best living, my source of guidance, just who I am now.

Stayingsassy

YES. I am proud to be sober, and this is exactly it, it is my source.

I didn’t know that every day, even into year two this core part of myself would be so important, but it is. Giving up alcohol has been my hero’s journey, the most important pivotal moment of my life, because if it hadn’t happened, nothing else would be possible.

I hear this so much from people who have slayed this beast and live this truth every day, grateful you are here and there are others with sober time talking about this here.

JustTony

August and Sassy - you’re both an inspiration. Great words and thoughts. Thank you.

Arpeggioh

JT: I completely concur; I always look forward to reading posts by those two smart ladies.

I especially like the concept of my sober self being the true me, my true identity. I'm no longer that sad, staggering mess trying desperately to manage his emotional life by drinking. I'm a sober guy now, and it feels like ME. Great thread start, btw--all responses have been personally very meaningful.

Lonewolf22

There are many reasons for a relapse, and I'm not sure I can positively assert whether it is the person to blame or not, I really don't know. It seems it is and isn't.

Maybe a helpful way to look at it is viewing it as probability? What will make it more likely to drink, and what will make it less likely?

By viewing it in this way, we don't have to put the blame anywhere. It is inclusive of all the factors that impact whether we stay sober or not. It is also a good way of looking at it in terms of how we will deal with it? What makes it more likely that I will drink? And what make it less likely?

The choice is in the fact that there are ways we can learn not to react to thoughts and emotions that are unhelpful. Yet I understand in some cases it just isn't possible. But as long as we try to keep moving things in our favour then sobriety looks more achievable and eventually it becomes a conviction.

-Says the guy on Day 3 Lmao!!

Dee74

I don't think it's blame so much as responsibility?

I went back to drinking again for many reasons over the years - many of those reasons were stupid and frivolous while others at the time seemed more weighty and valid...

but in every case I made the choice to go back - no one else held me down and poured the beer down my throat until I got drunk.

D

August252015

Thanks for the kind words Sassy, Arp and Tony.

I have to say....it is a blessing to me when anyone says I am useful in their journey. I am very public about my sobriety and that comes with such opportunity....and responsibility. My face and short bio are on a fairly major website for Heaven's sake! I lead a recovery group for the restaurant industry and am on the Board and the main operations person - the other 3 folks have way more sobriety than I do and are the big "faces" because of their prominence in the industry and more....yet I am no paragon of sobriety. On my own blog, Instagram and FB I regularly share about challenges and mostly the hope part of ESH and have been amazed at the people who have reached out to me about their struggles - going back to childhood friends or most recently a guy from high school who viewed me as one of the cool people and was even now hesitant to reach out. All that tells me that my way of living this recovery is a gift my higher power gave me.

It's such a mixed blessing in the sense that I struggle with the same stuff as everyone else, at any given time - I am blessed to be at a place I can be of service to others - and to know that I need help from those both "younger" and "older" than me in sobriety.

Part of this is perhaps illustrated by my recent shares on here about needing a new sponsor. I am acutely aware of that fact and yet- much like I did at the beginning of my journey when I finally got my first sponsor at 97 days- I haven't acted on it yet since it took me time to work through my feelings and yes, resentments, at my relationship with my sponsor who is truly now a dear friend instead. Oh yeah, I also yelled at my sweet and awesome husband the other night bc I got so overwhelmed w emotion about an issue important to both of us and couldn't get out of fear (or ego, ahem). so rigorous honesty and ongoing amends are sure part of my deal

There's a part in the BB where an old timer says to a newcomer something like I'd trade my 30 years for your 30 days in a heartbeat. To me that idea speaks to the blessing of the perspective increasing time in sobriety can bring- and the very necessary perspective that this journey is never complete no matter how much time we accumulate.

Grateful for all of YOU.

DriGuy

Yes, I've noticed that too. I believe that sober self IS the true me. I look at my drinking days and have a hard time recognizing myself. It was me; I know that, and am willing to own up to it, but the sober me is the real me. But at one time, the sober me was in a pathetic state, living in a fog and acting shamefully.

August252015

^^^Driguy - thanks for that. I sometimes frame my whole life journey as I was a pretty good person before the alcohol took over my life - then I was often a quite horrible one - and now I'm a far better person than even that original good one was! I've used the phrase before- I believe that alcoholism is "a peculiar gift" that I received and indeed the best thing that ever happened to me. One big reason being that by being in all those stages of person-hood, alcoholism and subsequent sobriety get me the me I am today.

dcg

I felt this way for the longest time. It seems like a copout when the cure is as simple as not drinking. Then again, the cure for a lot of things can be changed with diet as well.

However, listening to Jordan Peterson talk about the literature on alcoholism and how some people have a psychomotor stimulant response to alcohol that makes them want to continue to pound drinks for that response when normal people feel the depressant effects of alcohol and have a shutoff makes me open to the idea. At the end of the day, the cure is the same regardless.

mariposa

I think it’s simple and complicated. One very wise ex drinker said “Don’t think, just don’t drink” keep it simple especially in the early days. Don’t over analyze yet, just don’t drink. I’m not in AA for my personal reasons of I am NOT powerless, god or whatever high power can’t save me from this, just myself alone can make my life sober and in control or not sober and out of control. I do yoga, I read, I clean my house, it should work for me. I’m getting the SMART recovery workbook. I’m making a promise to myself if I’m sober in 30 days I will have a much better life.