Are we overcomplicating this?
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Are we overcomplicating this?
I'll start off with a couple of disclaimers:
1) I'm only on day 15 of sobriety - albeit I have had longer stints in the past - but I'm hardly an expert am I?
2) I've been a bit grumpy over the last couple of days - so maybe this is affecting my thinking?
I've been reading a few threads and have many others, from many years past, saved in my head.
I have to be honest and say that I think it really just comes down to this:
Do you want to drink more than you want sobriety or do you want sobriety more than you want to drink? It really is that simple in my mind.
When I relapse I don't 'slip'. I choose to drink. I make a conscious decision that I want to get drunk. I decide that I want booze more than I want to be clean. There is nothing baffling, perplexing, cunning, neverending or clever about it. And we don't "slip" - we relapse. I think we make too many excuses and use language and rhetoric that gives liquid in a bottle more power than it really has. The problem doesn't sit in a glass receptacle - it sits in our head.
No excuses. Come on folks! Do we want to be sober more than we want to drink? Because I think we should see it for the simple choice that it really is and stop overcomplicating it.
Love and Support,
JT
1) I'm only on day 15 of sobriety - albeit I have had longer stints in the past - but I'm hardly an expert am I?
2) I've been a bit grumpy over the last couple of days - so maybe this is affecting my thinking?
I've been reading a few threads and have many others, from many years past, saved in my head.
- Posters call this addiction "cunning", "baffling", "neverending" etc.
- Members pray to God for help.
- People say they have 'slipped' (like it was an accident).
I have to be honest and say that I think it really just comes down to this:
Do you want to drink more than you want sobriety or do you want sobriety more than you want to drink? It really is that simple in my mind.
When I relapse I don't 'slip'. I choose to drink. I make a conscious decision that I want to get drunk. I decide that I want booze more than I want to be clean. There is nothing baffling, perplexing, cunning, neverending or clever about it. And we don't "slip" - we relapse. I think we make too many excuses and use language and rhetoric that gives liquid in a bottle more power than it really has. The problem doesn't sit in a glass receptacle - it sits in our head.
No excuses. Come on folks! Do we want to be sober more than we want to drink? Because I think we should see it for the simple choice that it really is and stop overcomplicating it.
Love and Support,
JT
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It is a good question, and I honestly don't know if it is wholly one or the other. I think I would compare it to getting angry, or anything else in life really. If we don't acknowledge for what it is then we do lose control. I think to have some control there has to be a certain level of awareness of the pitfalls and the fact we aren't invincible, we have our limitations, and also being aware that we can make a difference even if only slight.
And my attitude at the moment would be congruent to your post. I feel like I'm feeling my way through my first day of sobriety rather than thinking my way through sobriety. I just know that thinking, leads to over thinking, as you said, and that leads to frustration and confusion, and hesitation. So at this stage, it is a very simple and unsophisticated approach. I think that is all I need to begin with. Too much of anything else would be too stressful right now.
And my attitude at the moment would be congruent to your post. I feel like I'm feeling my way through my first day of sobriety rather than thinking my way through sobriety. I just know that thinking, leads to over thinking, as you said, and that leads to frustration and confusion, and hesitation. So at this stage, it is a very simple and unsophisticated approach. I think that is all I need to begin with. Too much of anything else would be too stressful right now.
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Let me just add another thought if I may?
When you are in the deepest depths of despair and continually drunk - then rational thought goes out of the window. Until something or someone drags you back to the point where you can at least get a few days of sobriety under your belt then it probably isn't the simple choice that I suggest, as the brain and emotions simply aren't functioning correctly.
My opening post is really to those of us that do have a few days under our belt (and are posting on here) and therefore have the beginnings of cognitive capability returning. It is THEN that I wonder if it really just becomes a simple choice....
JT
When you are in the deepest depths of despair and continually drunk - then rational thought goes out of the window. Until something or someone drags you back to the point where you can at least get a few days of sobriety under your belt then it probably isn't the simple choice that I suggest, as the brain and emotions simply aren't functioning correctly.
My opening post is really to those of us that do have a few days under our belt (and are posting on here) and therefore have the beginnings of cognitive capability returning. It is THEN that I wonder if it really just becomes a simple choice....
JT
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It was and it wasn't that "easy" for me, as that bottle kept calling for many years....and it was difficult to get to that point. There was that point of do I need this drink and want it or not............yeah, we get to that point, but this alcoholism is a fiend to fend off! OH, then I surrendered, and that was my turning point of wanting to stay stopped more than I wanted to drink.
Staying stopped was a beginning. I needed to utilize the steps of AA, or I was doomed to drink again.
Staying stopped was a beginning. I needed to utilize the steps of AA, or I was doomed to drink again.
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Personally while the statement itself is true I think you are over simplifying a very complex issue. That is the kind of thing someone without a problem with addiction would say, “just stop drinking, it’s simple” etc and if it was that simple there wouldn’t be addicts out there. Statements like that are true but not always helpful depending on what stage a person is at. In the very early days a person doesn’t have enough sober time to appreciate what it truely means and feels like to be sober so how can they choose sobriety when they have no experience it is better for them other than someone telling them it is. Choosing sobriety can be terrifying for some, addicts do not like to step out of their comfort zone even if that comfort zone is bad for them, just like staying in abusive relationships etc. For me that phrase only works on someone with some previous positive sober time, it wasn’t helpful for me in the early days. x
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Originally Posted by MantaLady 
Personally while the statement itself is true I think you are over simplifying a very complex issue. That is the kind of thing someone without a problem with addiction would say, “just stop drinking, it’s simple” etc and if it was that simple there wouldn’t be addicts out there. Statements like that are true but not always helpful depending on what stage a person is at. In the very early days a person doesn’t have enough sober time to appreciate what it truely means and feels like to be sober so how can they choose sobriety when they have no experience it is better for them other than someone telling them it is. Choosing sobriety can be terrifying for some, addicts do not like to step out of their comfort zone even if that comfort zone is bad for them, just like staying in abusive relationships etc. For me that phrase only works on someone with some previous positive sober time, it wasn’t helpful for me in the early days. x
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Originally Posted by WaterOx
Who's "we"? 
Certainly not 'me' in 'we'.
I think it's clear that I think it is a simple choice once you have regained some sober days - and I'm an inveterate alcoholic of many years standing.
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Hi Tony, I guess I can only speak from my experience and even then I'm not fully sure if I'm correct in what I'm saying.
Well, I totally agree with what you say when we are in the depth of despair and alcoholism, it is extremely difficult to make a rational decision. Thinking itself becomes overbearing that we just haven't got the energy to put effort into decision-making. I think we'd agree you can't tell anyone just to pull themselves out of despair. It is real in many ways.
I think the stage you are at Tony, is where it can be a lot more complicated. At my stage, I'm close enough to having had a drink to have it clear in my mind that I really don't want to drink and have to cope with how I feel today again. Whereas at your stage, it can be confusing as we do get more confident, and we do start to feel a bit better, a bit stronger. The risk of having a drink from this perspective often doesnt seem so bad. We start to think more positively and that can extend to the way we think about having a drink. Thoughts like, 'Ah it would be lovely to top the day off with a nice pint', 'I suppose I can see what I'd be like now, if it doesn't work out I can just knock it on the head after that'.
It is the attitude that stems from thinking about life in a fresh optimistic viewpoint. So it can almost be like seeing drinking from the eyes of someone that does not have an issue with alcohol. We see things to sunny I guess, rather than realistically.
It can also go the other way too. If we feeling down and feel we have not made progress then we begin to slip into that despair again. And we often both these attitudes can envelope us many times throughout a day which makes it even more difficult as it can often seem unpredictable.
So the early stages is just getting over one big hurdle and your stage is kind of getting used to many hurdles. And I think having someone or something to keep you on track, so to speak, is helpful at that stage so you are aware of the new set of problems to contend with.
What helps you so far? And is there anything you find really difficult?
Well, I totally agree with what you say when we are in the depth of despair and alcoholism, it is extremely difficult to make a rational decision. Thinking itself becomes overbearing that we just haven't got the energy to put effort into decision-making. I think we'd agree you can't tell anyone just to pull themselves out of despair. It is real in many ways.
I think the stage you are at Tony, is where it can be a lot more complicated. At my stage, I'm close enough to having had a drink to have it clear in my mind that I really don't want to drink and have to cope with how I feel today again. Whereas at your stage, it can be confusing as we do get more confident, and we do start to feel a bit better, a bit stronger. The risk of having a drink from this perspective often doesnt seem so bad. We start to think more positively and that can extend to the way we think about having a drink. Thoughts like, 'Ah it would be lovely to top the day off with a nice pint', 'I suppose I can see what I'd be like now, if it doesn't work out I can just knock it on the head after that'.
It is the attitude that stems from thinking about life in a fresh optimistic viewpoint. So it can almost be like seeing drinking from the eyes of someone that does not have an issue with alcohol. We see things to sunny I guess, rather than realistically.
It can also go the other way too. If we feeling down and feel we have not made progress then we begin to slip into that despair again. And we often both these attitudes can envelope us many times throughout a day which makes it even more difficult as it can often seem unpredictable.
So the early stages is just getting over one big hurdle and your stage is kind of getting used to many hurdles. And I think having someone or something to keep you on track, so to speak, is helpful at that stage so you are aware of the new set of problems to contend with.
What helps you so far? And is there anything you find really difficult?
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Originally Posted by Lonewolf22
Hi Tony, I guess I can only speak from my experience and even then I'm not fully sure if I'm correct in what I'm saying.
Well, I totally agree with what you say when we are in the depth of despair and alcoholism, it is extremely difficult to make a rational decision. Thinking itself becomes overbearing that we just haven't got the energy to put effort into decision-making. I think we'd agree you can't tell anyone just to pull themselves out of despair. It is real in many ways.
I think the stage you are at Tony, is where it can be a lot more complicated. At my stage, I'm close enough to having had a drink to have it clear in my mind that I really don't want to drink and have to cope with how I feel today again. Whereas at your stage, it can be confusing as we do get more confident, and we do start to feel a bit better, a bit stronger. The risk of having a drink from this perspective often doesnt seem so bad. We start to think more positively and that can extend to the way we think about having a drink. Thoughts like, 'Ah it would be lovely to top the day off with a nice pint', 'I suppose I can see what I'd be like now, if it doesn't work out I can just knock it on the head after that'.
It is the attitude that stems from thinking about life in a fresh optimistic viewpoint. So it can almost be like seeing drinking from the eyes of someone that does not have an issue with alcohol. We see things to sunny I guess, rather than realistically.
It can also go the other way too. If we feeling down and feel we have not made progress then we begin to slip into that despair again. And we often both these attitudes can envelope us many times throughout a day which makes it even more difficult as it can often seem unpredictable.
So the early stages is just getting over one big hurdle and your stage is kind of getting used to many hurdles. And I think having someone or something to keep you on track, so to speak, is helpful at that stage so you are aware of the new set of problems to contend with.
What helps you so far? And is there anything you find really difficult?
Well, I totally agree with what you say when we are in the depth of despair and alcoholism, it is extremely difficult to make a rational decision. Thinking itself becomes overbearing that we just haven't got the energy to put effort into decision-making. I think we'd agree you can't tell anyone just to pull themselves out of despair. It is real in many ways.
I think the stage you are at Tony, is where it can be a lot more complicated. At my stage, I'm close enough to having had a drink to have it clear in my mind that I really don't want to drink and have to cope with how I feel today again. Whereas at your stage, it can be confusing as we do get more confident, and we do start to feel a bit better, a bit stronger. The risk of having a drink from this perspective often doesnt seem so bad. We start to think more positively and that can extend to the way we think about having a drink. Thoughts like, 'Ah it would be lovely to top the day off with a nice pint', 'I suppose I can see what I'd be like now, if it doesn't work out I can just knock it on the head after that'.
It is the attitude that stems from thinking about life in a fresh optimistic viewpoint. So it can almost be like seeing drinking from the eyes of someone that does not have an issue with alcohol. We see things to sunny I guess, rather than realistically.
It can also go the other way too. If we feeling down and feel we have not made progress then we begin to slip into that despair again. And we often both these attitudes can envelope us many times throughout a day which makes it even more difficult as it can often seem unpredictable.
So the early stages is just getting over one big hurdle and your stage is kind of getting used to many hurdles. And I think having someone or something to keep you on track, so to speak, is helpful at that stage so you are aware of the new set of problems to contend with.
What helps you so far? And is there anything you find really difficult?
What helps me? Just knowing that it is a choice and I make it. Knowing I'm now at a stage where I can make a decision that is rational or self destructive.
Nothing much else really helps me thus far. Maybe in time I will need 'something' to?
JT
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Hi Tony.
I see where you are coming from, and I think you're right in a way. On the other hand, what's kind of funny is that the decision to quit smoking dope (hasj) was a done deal within a second. Smoking cigarettes aswell. When I was sick and tired of getting high, or having a soar throat after a night out in town, I quit doing that from one day to the next.
I am sick and tired of drinking for many years, but after many periods of sobriety, for months on end, there's always this terrible relapse where I drink for months again. What's the point with it that it only happens with alcohol? And not with hasj or cigs? I consider alcohol a worse drug.
I see where you are coming from, and I think you're right in a way. On the other hand, what's kind of funny is that the decision to quit smoking dope (hasj) was a done deal within a second. Smoking cigarettes aswell. When I was sick and tired of getting high, or having a soar throat after a night out in town, I quit doing that from one day to the next.
I am sick and tired of drinking for many years, but after many periods of sobriety, for months on end, there's always this terrible relapse where I drink for months again. What's the point with it that it only happens with alcohol? And not with hasj or cigs? I consider alcohol a worse drug.
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Well I dunno about 'we' or 'us' or 'other posters' I just know about me.
This addiction thing is a be-otch. Yeah its simple, don't drink. But its not easy.
For me, I have to take action to drink....you know the drill, obsess, decide to drink, get in the car, go to the store, purchase drink, come home, consume drink. Then I passively allow drink to change how I feel. It just 'works' on me (or arguably doesn't but it will change how I feel passively).
Not drinking, well, its passive. Just sit on my hands. But the big problem arises when I can't stand how I feel...internally ,or about something or someone or whatever is happening externally to me. In order to stay sober, I have to actively engage in coping and learning to change how I feel, or alter my perception of the external, or my reaction to it. So staying sober is very active indeed. And definitely not easy. Especially since I have programmed myself through years of habituation to ingest a liquid that passively changes me.
Don't know if that made a lick of sense. But that's just my take. Powerful, cunning, baffling? Hell yes.
That's why I always cringe when I hear someone say I hope AA works, or rehab works, or SR works, or therapy works. Nothing works unless I actively pursue the change.
Ok ramble complete
This addiction thing is a be-otch. Yeah its simple, don't drink. But its not easy.
For me, I have to take action to drink....you know the drill, obsess, decide to drink, get in the car, go to the store, purchase drink, come home, consume drink. Then I passively allow drink to change how I feel. It just 'works' on me (or arguably doesn't but it will change how I feel passively).
Not drinking, well, its passive. Just sit on my hands. But the big problem arises when I can't stand how I feel...internally ,or about something or someone or whatever is happening externally to me. In order to stay sober, I have to actively engage in coping and learning to change how I feel, or alter my perception of the external, or my reaction to it. So staying sober is very active indeed. And definitely not easy. Especially since I have programmed myself through years of habituation to ingest a liquid that passively changes me.
Don't know if that made a lick of sense. But that's just my take. Powerful, cunning, baffling? Hell yes.
That's why I always cringe when I hear someone say I hope AA works, or rehab works, or SR works, or therapy works. Nothing works unless I actively pursue the change.
Ok ramble complete
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For me it was simple. don't drink.
Some days were easier than others in the beginning but I stayed true to that commitment. Like I've often said, all we need to do is get through a day sober- it doesn't have to be graceful.
I liked that simplicity - I took refuge and solace in the idea all I needed to do was not raise that glass to my lips.
It wasn't, in any sense of the word, easy tho.
Probably the hardest thing I've ever done, and I've done some hard things.
I understand why a lot of people falter, fall over, or give up...thats not s surprise to me....
but I'm thrilled when most of those folks who stayed around SR a while come back wiser, hungrier for success and even more committed
D
Some days were easier than others in the beginning but I stayed true to that commitment. Like I've often said, all we need to do is get through a day sober- it doesn't have to be graceful.
I liked that simplicity - I took refuge and solace in the idea all I needed to do was not raise that glass to my lips.
It wasn't, in any sense of the word, easy tho.
Probably the hardest thing I've ever done, and I've done some hard things.
I understand why a lot of people falter, fall over, or give up...thats not s surprise to me....
but I'm thrilled when most of those folks who stayed around SR a while come back wiser, hungrier for success and even more committed
D
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I completely agree with you. In theory . I wish it were that simple in practice.
I need to combine this thinking with a lot of strategies. Yoga, meditation, mindfulness, journaling, exercise, 12 steps, SR check-ins, occasional therapy, etc
I also agree that all rational thought goes out the window in a continuously drunk state. So it is necessary to have a few sober days for it to return. I believe this applies to other substances as well, which as why I don’t get stoned anymore either.
. I wish it were that simple in practice. I need to combine this thinking with a lot of strategies. Yoga, meditation, mindfulness, journaling, exercise, 12 steps, SR check-ins, occasional therapy, etc
I also agree that all rational thought goes out the window in a continuously drunk state. So it is necessary to have a few sober days for it to return. I believe this applies to other substances as well, which as why I don’t get stoned anymore either.
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My take (and I acknowledge I am a massive failure: I only managed 16 days abstinent recently) is all we have is now and if we're feeling good now, and sober, it is easy to think of course we don't need to drink. But if we feel bad now, and we have no one around or no hope within us at this moment of now, then it can sometimes be harder for us to turn down an easy fix.
For me I recognise I need to stop again but the insomnia was driving me to despair. Alcohol won't help me any in the long-term but sometimes in the now we need to sleep.
I will get back on the horse when I can but I don't think society makes it as easy as all that. If you've got a job and you know you can pull it off with a degree of drinking it is hard (perhaps too hard) to just try and white-knuckle it abstaining, risking employment - conversely - by being sober, as I felt I was doing (with the insomnia and diminishing mental health I was experiencing).
For me I recognise I need to stop again but the insomnia was driving me to despair. Alcohol won't help me any in the long-term but sometimes in the now we need to sleep.
I will get back on the horse when I can but I don't think society makes it as easy as all that. If you've got a job and you know you can pull it off with a degree of drinking it is hard (perhaps too hard) to just try and white-knuckle it abstaining, risking employment - conversely - by being sober, as I felt I was doing (with the insomnia and diminishing mental health I was experiencing).
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The most simple of concepts are sometimes the hardest to put into action. Put this into perspective: Its as easy as moderating and only having one. The concept of just having one drink is very simple and not complicated at all. Many can moderate no problem. But for many of us, the action of never drinking again is hard because we are addicts. Yeah it's as simple as not drinking. But it is as hard as not drinking.
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