Are we overcomplicating this?
Member
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: United States
Posts: 2,547
For me, "just don't drink" is a simple first step, but it only took me so far. I actually found it comparatively easy during the first several months, because my memories of the evils of drinking were still vivid, the novelty of sobriety had not worn off, and I was not focused on making the important life changes that were necessary to get me into what I would consider recovery. After a few months, I had to make some bold choices to protect my sobriety. Stressful life events emerged which tested me - and now, at 13 months sober, I'm still shocked at how seemingly benign AV suggestions to drink sometimes pop up out of nowhere. I don't think I'm making things complicated, I'm just acutely aware of possible pitfalls and I'm smart enough to know that just because I haven't personally experienced something (or haven't experienced it YET) doesn't mean it's invalid.
I do think it's important to keep in mind that this is a Newcomer's Forum, so if people don't figure it out on the first try, we should remember that it took us MANY tries, and allow people the time to process without assuming they are overcomplicating things. Some folks can stop and start at will - that's great - some can't, or won't, or need some encouragement, and that's all good too.
I do think it's important to keep in mind that this is a Newcomer's Forum, so if people don't figure it out on the first try, we should remember that it took us MANY tries, and allow people the time to process without assuming they are overcomplicating things. Some folks can stop and start at will - that's great - some can't, or won't, or need some encouragement, and that's all good too.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 5,169
In the beginning the awful reality for me was just don't drink. I admit I spent a lot of time analyzing the causes, but as I mentioned before, the eventual insight after I got sober was that I drank because of addiction. I'm not against trying to think things through. God forbid. I'm very much into introspection. But thinking or not, the beginner eventually has to grapple with cravings and learn to say no. "Just don't drink" is itself an oversimplification, because it doesn't address how difficult it is to deal with the constant nagging of cravings. But eventually, recovering alcoholics have to deal with that, and it's usually the first big trial.
Tony might be the exception in that he said he doesn't have cravings. He just chooses to drink to join in, although that might be considered a craving. I might guess that he doesn't have many of those hidden demons buried in his subconscious. I didn't either, but I spent a lot of time looking for them.
Not to say thinking shouldn't be part of the plan, but I think it's much easier to do sober with a clear mind once the cravings are out of the way. In fact, the insights I had and the problems I solved came after I quit. The exception being the realization that I was out of control, but that was obvious in the later months of my drinking. That was hardly an insight that required much thought.
Overthinking by definition is thinking too much, but lets not throw out the baby with the bathwater. Thinking rationally with a clear head is a good thing. At the other extreme, we don't want to over simplify either, because somethings warrant thought, and above all they require choices about how to proceed.
Tony might be the exception in that he said he doesn't have cravings. He just chooses to drink to join in, although that might be considered a craving. I might guess that he doesn't have many of those hidden demons buried in his subconscious. I didn't either, but I spent a lot of time looking for them.
Not to say thinking shouldn't be part of the plan, but I think it's much easier to do sober with a clear mind once the cravings are out of the way. In fact, the insights I had and the problems I solved came after I quit. The exception being the realization that I was out of control, but that was obvious in the later months of my drinking. That was hardly an insight that required much thought.
Overthinking by definition is thinking too much, but lets not throw out the baby with the bathwater. Thinking rationally with a clear head is a good thing. At the other extreme, we don't want to over simplify either, because somethings warrant thought, and above all they require choices about how to proceed.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: nj
Posts: 470
I think that for some, sobriety is more manageable if they can “personify” their cravings related to alcohol use so that it becomes something outside themselves and as such is easier to label and confront.
Perhaps there are triggers for some that are so closely related to alcohol use that they feel powerless to cope with and turn to faith and prayer to give them strength.
To me a slip is a relapse of sorts....maybe a stumble along the path rather than a full out return to previous behaviors. Maybe the word “slip” allows one to quickly get black to business rather than deal with all the shame and regret that sometimes serves to reinforce the struggle?
In the end it does come down to making choices, but people come to sobriety with varying abilities to cope and with varying amounts of support. I think that whatever works, works. And as you eluded, in time and with strength and resolve and experience, I think that most will realize that it is a choice and even then they must always remember what the opposite of sobriety is like.
Good to hear about your sobrietyand wish you all the best!
Bonnie
Perhaps there are triggers for some that are so closely related to alcohol use that they feel powerless to cope with and turn to faith and prayer to give them strength.
To me a slip is a relapse of sorts....maybe a stumble along the path rather than a full out return to previous behaviors. Maybe the word “slip” allows one to quickly get black to business rather than deal with all the shame and regret that sometimes serves to reinforce the struggle?
In the end it does come down to making choices, but people come to sobriety with varying abilities to cope and with varying amounts of support. I think that whatever works, works. And as you eluded, in time and with strength and resolve and experience, I think that most will realize that it is a choice and even then they must always remember what the opposite of sobriety is like.
Good to hear about your sobrietyand wish you all the best!
Bonnie
Member
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: South Bay, So Cal
Posts: 6,123
When we pick up, use, or drink we are in a sober state of mind. To my way of thinking that is part of the cunning & baffling nature of addiction.
Relapse is not part of Recovery.
When I read someone is once again trying to get sober from their addiction, and then they attempt make light of it by saying they had "a hiccup", "bump n the road" (out of embarrassment I guess) I get a bit pissed. WHY?
THE afternoon I checked into CASA Women's Recovery in Pasadena, CA the women were in tears. A young girl left the Rehab (early) on Sunday. I was checking in on Thursday, they had found out that morning she was found dead. Hello Reality!
I have seen, and later felt the personal pain of when folks "slip up" and don't come back. Dead, dead, no second chance, no 10th chance, you are dead. We survivors tend to use that dead person as an example to ourselves WHY NOT to use. It becomes very personal & very real when your friend is no longer coming to meetings.
Feel like a drink? CALL SOMEONE! That feeling truly will pass. Another AA saying, PICK UP that 10 POUND PHONE. Save your life.
But, what if that person didn't call someone ? Well, we all are at the meeting, assuming your beautiful face is going to walk through that door. And you don't.
The Old Timers in AA also have a saying, " Better them, than me".
Bobbi
Relapse is not part of Recovery.
When I read someone is once again trying to get sober from their addiction, and then they attempt make light of it by saying they had "a hiccup", "bump n the road" (out of embarrassment I guess) I get a bit pissed. WHY?
THE afternoon I checked into CASA Women's Recovery in Pasadena, CA the women were in tears. A young girl left the Rehab (early) on Sunday. I was checking in on Thursday, they had found out that morning she was found dead. Hello Reality!
I have seen, and later felt the personal pain of when folks "slip up" and don't come back. Dead, dead, no second chance, no 10th chance, you are dead. We survivors tend to use that dead person as an example to ourselves WHY NOT to use. It becomes very personal & very real when your friend is no longer coming to meetings.
Feel like a drink? CALL SOMEONE! That feeling truly will pass. Another AA saying, PICK UP that 10 POUND PHONE. Save your life.
But, what if that person didn't call someone ? Well, we all are at the meeting, assuming your beautiful face is going to walk through that door. And you don't.
The Old Timers in AA also have a saying, " Better them, than me".
Bobbi
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Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 8,674
Good words- and important to share so bluntly, IMO. I absolutely hate the idea that relapse is a part of recovery. That is not a given, and it is part of our addiction. I also know I don't have another chance to drink and return in me- and I don't believe anyone gets an infinite number, nor knows which just might be their last.
There is a time and place for gentleness and as AA says, suggestions - and there is a time and place (and, explicit places in the BB) for bluntly saying what alcoholism is and costs many.
There is a time and place for gentleness and as AA says, suggestions - and there is a time and place (and, explicit places in the BB) for bluntly saying what alcoholism is and costs many.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: nj
Posts: 470
To clarify, I’m not saying that relapse is a part of recovery. There are some behaviorists who would say that it is (Stages of Change Theory), but I agree that it doesn’t have to be. I am suggesting that calling it a slip instead of relapse might, for some, preserve the inner strength needed to get back on the wagon. WHen it happens over and over, I agree that calling it a slip may be a crutch. It would also be a time to change the strategy and you have to have the energy and wherewithal to figure that out. While we do have to be honest with ourselves and draw the line, I dont think that we have to be unforgiving too. All is not lost. Isn’t something learned when you fail? Guess there are a lot of ways to think about it.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 24
Ideally every alcoholic/addict who wants to get sober would never relapse but lets face it and we should all know this as alcoholics/addicts reality is much different than what we all want this world to be. Fact is a lot of us are going to relapse. That's not a justification to go get drunk or high it's just a fact.
However, a relapse doesn't mean a person can't achieve long-term sobriety. So to me as long as they keep fighting, make adjustments, and don't go back to their old ways it is part of their process to sobriety..
However, a relapse doesn't mean a person can't achieve long-term sobriety. So to me as long as they keep fighting, make adjustments, and don't go back to their old ways it is part of their process to sobriety..
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Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Colorado
Posts: 3,474
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An interesting Topic, to be sure.
I've been a Hands-On Guy all my Life. When I Reverse Engineer something I'm trying to fix, while guessing the Manufacturing steps used to assemble it, there's typically an 'Ah Ha' moment when things are apart, and fixed. As was the case recently with repairing our Oven. The second time I have to tear into something like a Wall Oven, it is much easier. Understanding is a retrospective POV.
To me, this is an Allegory for finally achieving what I call 'Effortless Sobriety'. Looking back now after 5 Years, it does appear relatively straightforward. After the fact. A bit like opening a Chinese Box in which there is another Chinese Box, and so on. Each layer of Box openings led to necessary Steps to be understood to achieve my current Sober Serenity. I can't crave, or lust after, that which I simply do not want anymore: to drink whatsoever, or to become Intoxicated.
As with so many, I had to read and process and analyze and understand what I'd put myself through via constant Intoxication. The daunting Physiological aspects of Addiction, for one. On and on. When I'd finally edumacated myself to where there really wasn't much more to integrate, I declared myself 'edumacated enough'. There was no way I was going to leave my Mind at the proverbial Door while sobering up - as some suggest - because that would have been a Roadblock viz how I'm wired. I would have failed at Sobriety, absent 'enough' Self Education. Deep Understanding occurs over time; it is not possible on Sober Day 1. Not drinking again is absolutely possible from Day 1, though likely quite trying early on.
The non-negotiable Pledge to myself to never drink again - a tenet in AVRT/RR learned here in 'Secular Recovery' - was an excellent, necessary mandate for me. Using my gradually-clearing Mind - and I think Sobriety is largely mastering a Mental Game - I compartmentalized not Drinking in with other things I just don't do: Cheat on my Wife. Kick my beloved Dog. Steal Cash from a Pal's Wallet left on his Coffee Table. Fact is, we all have things we just don't do. Full Stop. Add Drinking to that Mental List. Once repeated episodes of not Drinking in trying situations are similarly adhered to via Core Principles, that Sober Pledge became as immovable as the Concrete Buttresses holding massive Cables at the ends of the Golden Gate Bridge.
THEN - yah - my decision seemed pretty binary, and simple in appearance. Still is. However, when Emotional or Physical Abuse in one's past is a factor, or Dual Diagnosis complicates fundamental Sober Pledges, that is a whole other Dynamic. I thank SR for providing depth on such issues that nuanced my understanding of Addiction complexities. Nuanced Understanding fosters Empathy.
.
An interesting Topic, to be sure.
I've been a Hands-On Guy all my Life. When I Reverse Engineer something I'm trying to fix, while guessing the Manufacturing steps used to assemble it, there's typically an 'Ah Ha' moment when things are apart, and fixed. As was the case recently with repairing our Oven. The second time I have to tear into something like a Wall Oven, it is much easier. Understanding is a retrospective POV.
To me, this is an Allegory for finally achieving what I call 'Effortless Sobriety'. Looking back now after 5 Years, it does appear relatively straightforward. After the fact. A bit like opening a Chinese Box in which there is another Chinese Box, and so on. Each layer of Box openings led to necessary Steps to be understood to achieve my current Sober Serenity. I can't crave, or lust after, that which I simply do not want anymore: to drink whatsoever, or to become Intoxicated.
As with so many, I had to read and process and analyze and understand what I'd put myself through via constant Intoxication. The daunting Physiological aspects of Addiction, for one. On and on. When I'd finally edumacated myself to where there really wasn't much more to integrate, I declared myself 'edumacated enough'. There was no way I was going to leave my Mind at the proverbial Door while sobering up - as some suggest - because that would have been a Roadblock viz how I'm wired. I would have failed at Sobriety, absent 'enough' Self Education. Deep Understanding occurs over time; it is not possible on Sober Day 1. Not drinking again is absolutely possible from Day 1, though likely quite trying early on.
The non-negotiable Pledge to myself to never drink again - a tenet in AVRT/RR learned here in 'Secular Recovery' - was an excellent, necessary mandate for me. Using my gradually-clearing Mind - and I think Sobriety is largely mastering a Mental Game - I compartmentalized not Drinking in with other things I just don't do: Cheat on my Wife. Kick my beloved Dog. Steal Cash from a Pal's Wallet left on his Coffee Table. Fact is, we all have things we just don't do. Full Stop. Add Drinking to that Mental List. Once repeated episodes of not Drinking in trying situations are similarly adhered to via Core Principles, that Sober Pledge became as immovable as the Concrete Buttresses holding massive Cables at the ends of the Golden Gate Bridge.
THEN - yah - my decision seemed pretty binary, and simple in appearance. Still is. However, when Emotional or Physical Abuse in one's past is a factor, or Dual Diagnosis complicates fundamental Sober Pledges, that is a whole other Dynamic. I thank SR for providing depth on such issues that nuanced my understanding of Addiction complexities. Nuanced Understanding fosters Empathy.
.
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 211,439
Originally Posted by Proud2BeSober 
Ideally every alcoholic/addict who wants to get sober would never relapse but lets face it and we should all know this as alcoholics/addicts reality is much different than what we all want this world to be. Fact is a lot of us are going to relapse. That's not a justification to go get drunk or high it's just a fact.
However, a relapse doesn't mean a person can't achieve long-term sobriety. So to me as long as they keep fighting, make adjustments, and don't go back to their old ways it is part of their process to sobriety..
However, a relapse doesn't mean a person can't achieve long-term sobriety. So to me as long as they keep fighting, make adjustments, and don't go back to their old ways it is part of their process to sobriety..
But I think we have to be careful not to build relapse into the recovery process.
Relapse is a part of my addiction its not a part of my recovery.
its before and after, sick vs well, sane vs insane for me.
D
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