gettingsmarter

Same here MLD. This time 1.5 years ago I really decided in the pit of all my being that I can't drink. It was different this last time. I think I finally came to the conclusion that drinking only makes me miserable. I don't look at drinking as something that will solve any problem or make me feel good now. It literally smells like anxiety and depression to me. Now, I know one drink will lead back to that same hopeless place. Screw that. Id rather have some hope for this life. Hope feels much better.

Thanks for the post LBrain

Algorithm

I don't wish to derail your thread, LBrain, but since much of your insight appears to come from AVRT, consider that both of your statements above (underlined) are in fact Addictive Voice. I may use them as examples in the AVRT discussion thread on the secular forum.

MIRecovery

Hold on. I plan on being one of those people too so there are at least two of us

MrPL

Great post Brain.

I totally get this, it is early days for me, still only about 40, but I realised that I wanted to be sober more than I wanted to drink halfway through can number 3. I wasn't drunk, hangover, detoxing, maybe a bit disappointed as I had been sober for 16 days at that point, but it's like someone turned the lights on inside my head and that Day 1 felt different to all the ones I had before.

There s not a chance there ll be another Day 1.

P

Fluffer

I think there are quite a few people who are motivated by not wanting to give their enemies the satisfaction of seeing them fail.

MIRecovery

We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.

Albert Einstein

EndGameNYC

I think that we come to a point when we want to be sober more than we want to drink in different ways. And sometimes, even that isn't enough.

AA's sole criterion for membership is "a desire to stop drinking." I had no desire to stop drinking when I went back to AA following my relapse. It was more about avoiding the consequences if I were to drink, such as immediate homelessness. I was merely compliant, and I made a commitment to go through the motions until I got back on my feet. It took me several months before I even allowed myself to even think about living a sober life. Yet working the program played an important part, not only in my getting sober, but also in terms of opening my mind, accepting myself for who and what I am and, through lots of hard work, experiencing the motivation to build a better life.

It sounds harsh, and even rigid, but I believe that until a person has been sober for an undetermined amount of time, and is sober in his thinking and behavior, his sober time is only days, weeks and months -- perhaps even years -- between drinks. Ya can't relapse if you've never been sober. And until you achieve sobriety, you're only drinking on a modified schedule.

Talk of multiple relapses and the accumulation of "Day 1s" muddies the water and allows us to make a case for the notion that we were, in fact "sober" up until we, again, picked up a drink. You can cheat on this if you want. No one's watching. But doing this is one of the best ways to relive the mistakes of the past, sometimes without end. The illusion of sobriety-between-drinks is only destructive, convincing ourselves that "All I need to do is make a couple of (minor) tweaks in my plan, and I'll be fine!" Just as dangerous is the uniquely alcoholic thinking that says, "Since I wasn't really sober all along, then it's not really a relapse when I drink again!"

Fluffer

Not sure I follow you here. What is the definition of sober beyond abstaining from intoxicants long enough to clear out the chemically induced changes in thinking? Having adopted a new mindset that views drinking as undesirable? Sometimes I see people espousing a concept of sobriety that is poorly defined but seems to be a means for marginalizing those who don't conform to the norms and beliefs of certain recovery communities. Hence the concept of the "dry drunk", who defies the precepts of AA or its hierarchy and is accordingly considered doomed to failure and unhappiness, even if by some miracle he or she remain abstinent (but not "sober").

trachemys

One of the problems with an internet group is the lack of contact. We have more anonymity than something like AA affords.

I have met LBrain. He is a sober man. I don't think a drink ever crosses his mind.

LBrain

I realize this is an open forum. I didn’t want this thread to get into a debate or challenge. Actually I wasn’t thinking anything when I wrote it other than how frustrated I was after reading the morning posts as I described. I wasn’t expecting “Big Book” quotes or, anything really. I just wanted to point out something that is the common denominator for everyone who successfully got sober in the history of mankind that was an alcoholic and whose only recourse was and remains abstention from alcohol.

As for much of my insight coming from AVRT, I’m glad someone developed a “program” using the same logic I used to get sober. Bully for them to capitalize on such a simple idea.
I’ll let you in on a little secret. I was ‘sober’ for almost 3 months when I discovered this forum. And it wasn’t until sometime later that I explored and discovered the ‘secular connections’ area of the forum.
One day in December 2013 I got ‘popped’ on an alcohol random screening at work. The details don’t matter. I was sent home from work that night, never to return. Imagine showing up at home in the evening with your wife sitting at the kitchen table wondering why you are home when you are supposed to be at work and not expected until 7AM in the morning. What do you say to her?
That night I declared that I would never allow alcohol to have an effect on my life ever again. That was it for me. Right before Christmas I lost my job. The house was full of booze and beer. But I decided right then and there that I was never going to drink again – EVER! The only way for alcohol to never have an effect on my life again was to never drink again. My drinking history doesn’t matter. I’ll just say that I was in the big leagues. But, I wanted to be sober more than I wanted to drink.
Did I struggle? You bet your ass I did. But I swore to myself I was never going to drink again for the rest of my life. Sure, it took a devastating life experience for me to finally say ENOUGH. But I did it.
I’m nothing special, millions before me decided one day that they had enough and never looked back. Many used AA to help and guide them, others turned to their pastor, some went to therapists, and others just ‘did it on their own’. But I guarantee you the one thing they all had in common was that they wanted to be sober more than they wanted to drink – all of them.

So you can spin it any way you want. If people are ‘not ready’ to be sober and not fully committed to sobriety, they are going to struggle, going back and forth, until they either finally make the decision that “this is what I want” or they die trying.
I’ve always prided myself as one who used logic. My insight didn’t come from AVRT, it was pure logic.
And yes, the ‘signature’ line at the bottom of all my posts was taken from AVRT. And I did use the AVRT approach to deal with the “beast” several months into my journey. I did whatever it took to get me to the other side. I got 1000 days sober this week. Do the math.

EndGameNYC

I'm coming from a place where I believe that each of us knows whether or not we're sober. I also believe that it's very easy for other people to see when our thinking and behavior is not sober. We have laws and social norms in place that are meant to dissuade people from acting in a non-sober manner that also impinges upon the rights of others.

For me, a definition of "sobriety" is pointless and has very little meaning to the extent that it ultimately comes down to what a person knows, or only believes he knows, about himself.

If nothing else, and if you were like me when I was drinking, I became an expert at lying, and not only lying to other people. That doesn't just go away by virtue of putting down the drink. Nor is honesty the same thing as not lying, just as, in my case, not drinking isn't the same thing as being sober.

As I commented, it's easy to "cheat" on whether or not you've achieved sobriety, or are behaving in a sober manner. No one's watching and, ultimately, and besides those whom we hurt, no one cares.

Dee74

I think most of us realise there are various paths up the mountain.

Some have guides, some do not...some set out prepared, some less so...

some paths may be relatively easy going while others choose a more rocky route...

some make it first try - and some have to turn back and try again.

As long as you get to the top of the mountain, it's all good as I see it

I'm glad we have this forum here so we can all share our journeys - you never know what might help someone else

D

cwood3

I shared my Journey with a friend. She scratched the CD so I'm not loaning her my Led Zepplin....

Venecia

LBrain, before I write anything else, let me extend a heart "Congratulations!" to you for achieving 1,000 days of sobriety. Big tip o' the hat, sir.

I remember a conversation I had with a sober friend (we're both at just a tad over three years into recovery) about what it was that worked for us. His comment was that it happens the day we stop saying "I'll do anything to get sober except not drink." That struck me as insightful.

trachemys

The only good Journey song:



Glad you protected the Zep

Arpeggioh

Thanks Dee!

MIRecovery

I agree with this. I have quit drinking many many times but I was never sober just abstinent. There was always that thought that someday I could return to drinking. This thought kept me in a perpetual state of discontent. I didn't want to drink but I didn't want to be sober either. I just did want to be me. What I wanted is to be a drunk without the consequences but I knew that wasn't possible either.

I eventually embraced sobriety and should I drink now it would be a relapse.

Tonymblue

Great post! Well said. One for the archives. People should read it at their weak times.

Algorithm

Relax, LBrain. I actually agree with the main thrust of your original post that started this thread. It's not stopping that people usually have a problem with, it is staying stopped. People change their minds. Unless they're devoid of empathy, it is probably difficult for everyone to watch these cycles, whether in real life or online, more so if they strike a chord.

I would never tell anyone that they need to want to stay sober more than they want to drink to stop the devastation, however. That could take forever, and it has an opening for more drinking embedded within it that could fit years' worth of drinks.

It sounds nice, but it is only a variation to the "hitting bottom" concept, and I may as well tell them to go out and try some more drinking until they hit bottom and are ready. Euphoric recall is a problem, and they might self-destruct well before they ever arrive at that stage.

AV: "Excellent news!!! They said that I need to be more ready! Until then, I will wait and drink some more!!!"

(Not too far-fetched for someone who already has a death-defying desire for more drinks, and is weighing their options.)

Once again: I agree with your main idea.

freshstart57

I suggest you look into this misquote more carefully. It is cute and pithy, but what Dr E said was this: 'A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move toward higher levels.' He was seeking to drive awareness of the dangers of entering the nuclear age, not announcing some new age mantra. Icarusfalling: Einstein Enigmatic Quote
He most certainly was not talking about addiction. I believe we most certainly can use our powers of reason to make the choice to end our addictions, and that we have what we need within to do so. To think otherwise is to doubt our ability to stay sober, and that is AV.

I am very pleased to see this OP, and the wonderful discussion that follows. Thanks, LBrain, for setting this up here. AVRT is deserving of wider understanding.

Onward!