some AA issues
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Washington DC
Posts: 138
some AA issues
I think it would be a good idea for me to go to at least one AA meeting a week. When I went through 6-8 months of sobriety the last couple of times, I didn't go to AA and I think that made relapse more likely especially because I had so many excuses why once a week binge drinking was fine for me. But I have a couple of issues with basic AA philosophy and I wonder if these will prevent me from being able to benefit from the meetings? One is that I think of my binge drinking as something that I can fight back against and treat. I just don't think it's healthy for me to tell myself that I am "powerless" over alcohol. Why should I make myself feel helpless when confronting an illness or any challenge? I believe that addiction is a disease, similar to obesity being a disease but we aren't "powerless" over our illnesses, there are always things we can do to treat them and improve our lives. Secondly, since addiction has unequivocally been scientifically proven to be a disease, why should I apologize to anyone for my drinking? Would a cancer patient apologize for being sick ? Why go back into the past and start dredging up the worst parts of when we were sick? Basically, I would like to know what's constructive about saying we are "powerless" over our illness and why it would make sense to have to take an inventory and ask forgiveness for being sick ? I respect and probably really need AA so any clarity on these issues would be much appreciated
Sobriety is Traditional
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Orcas Island, Washington
Posts: 9,067
Hi effortjoy!
I believe that fundamentally different parts of the brain may be involved in addiction. For some, alcoholism springs from the primitive pleasure centers. Those people can out-think addiction and forget about it. But then there are those of us for whom addiction also affects the more advanced parts of our brain that regulate social cognition, self-monitoring, moral behavior and other processes that the AA-type approach seems to target. I need AA and constant reminders that I am an addict.
I believe that fundamentally different parts of the brain may be involved in addiction. For some, alcoholism springs from the primitive pleasure centers. Those people can out-think addiction and forget about it. But then there are those of us for whom addiction also affects the more advanced parts of our brain that regulate social cognition, self-monitoring, moral behavior and other processes that the AA-type approach seems to target. I need AA and constant reminders that I am an addict.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: W Washington
Posts: 11,589
Step One says:
We admitted we were powerless of ALCOHOL and that our lives had become unmanageable.
As long as we drink, we are under the power of the alcohol. you yourself as a binge drinker must know that all too well......once you start, there is not stop.
you could say BRAKE-less, if you wanted.
it's not about apologizing for the ILLNESS< it's about reviewing our own lives and our own ACTIONS and looking at where we crossed the line, caused harm to others, behaved in unacceptable ways, broke the law, etc etc. we do NOT apologize for being alcoholic.
you might wanna read some of the AA literature....it will do a much better job of explaining that i.
We admitted we were powerless of ALCOHOL and that our lives had become unmanageable.
As long as we drink, we are under the power of the alcohol. you yourself as a binge drinker must know that all too well......once you start, there is not stop.
you could say BRAKE-less, if you wanted.
it's not about apologizing for the ILLNESS< it's about reviewing our own lives and our own ACTIONS and looking at where we crossed the line, caused harm to others, behaved in unacceptable ways, broke the law, etc etc. we do NOT apologize for being alcoholic.
you might wanna read some of the AA literature....it will do a much better job of explaining that i.
~sb
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: MD
Posts: 15,967
Can you have one drink and stop?
In any way do you dislike yourself or your behavior?
Do you want to be alcohol-free?
Are you desperate enough to try something different?
Or, do you just want to hang out with other sober people?
No matter what, why not just hit up a meeting? 1200 meetings in the MD/DC/NoVA area weekly!
In any way do you dislike yourself or your behavior?
Do you want to be alcohol-free?
Are you desperate enough to try something different?
Or, do you just want to hang out with other sober people?
No matter what, why not just hit up a meeting? 1200 meetings in the MD/DC/NoVA area weekly!
A Day at a Time
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Grand Rapids MI
Posts: 6,435
You may wish to ask yourself the question, "If I have so much power over alcoholism then why can't I stay sober?"
Alcoholism is a thinking Disease not a drinking disease. AA simply teaches us to think differently with the side benefit being sobriety
Alcoholism is a thinking Disease not a drinking disease. AA simply teaches us to think differently with the side benefit being sobriety
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,981
AA's philosophy on that is for many alcoholics, we are literally at the mercy of alcohol, to put egos and excuses aside, to finally admit that we can not control the drinking ourselves, and need help to find true sobriety is their path.
You may want to look at other avenues such as rational recovery which has a more head on approach that we are infact the ones in control, and our "alcoholic voice" is the one that tricks us in any way it can to feed it. It comes more down to straight willpower to fight back against the beast to find sobriety.
There really is no one size fits all approach, and everyone has their own path to sobriety.
You may want to look at other avenues such as rational recovery which has a more head on approach that we are infact the ones in control, and our "alcoholic voice" is the one that tricks us in any way it can to feed it. It comes more down to straight willpower to fight back against the beast to find sobriety.
There really is no one size fits all approach, and everyone has their own path to sobriety.
Forum Leader
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 16,945
The concept of powerlessness over alcohol is common across many recovery methods, it's just called different things
To me it basically says that I accept that there is something about me that does not allow me to control my drinking once I start. I may be able to "moderate" for a few weeks or days, but eventually I will return to my alcoholic drinking. For me that means binge drinking every day.
I am powerless to change that fact. I will always be an alcoholic and there is no "cure". There is no worldly explanation why either...because if there were it could most likely be corrected.
That doesn't mean I am powerless to change my life though. I can stop drinking and learn new ways to face life without alcohol. AA is one of many plans that can help you do that, and there are others too. But none of them can ever take away the addiction completely...it's always there at some level.
To me it basically says that I accept that there is something about me that does not allow me to control my drinking once I start. I may be able to "moderate" for a few weeks or days, but eventually I will return to my alcoholic drinking. For me that means binge drinking every day.
I am powerless to change that fact. I will always be an alcoholic and there is no "cure". There is no worldly explanation why either...because if there were it could most likely be corrected.
That doesn't mean I am powerless to change my life though. I can stop drinking and learn new ways to face life without alcohol. AA is one of many plans that can help you do that, and there are others too. But none of them can ever take away the addiction completely...it's always there at some level.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 709
I tried AA but I also had several issues with it, step 6 being the biggest (that you're a moral failure because you have a drinking problem.) I just couldn't embrace the whole treatment modale. There are other options out there -- Rational Recovery, Smart Recovery, the 3P's -- but they aren't as readily available as AA. Still, it's very possible to get and stay sober with other programs.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Washington DC
Posts: 138
thank you
thanks so much for helping me clarify these ideas. It sounds like rational recovery is better for me but do they have meetings like AA does? I think to prevent relapse I want to seek out more face to face support.
Can I go to AA and disagree with some of the steps? I still don't understand asking for forgiveness for our actions when we were sick. Should a chemo patient apologize for throwing up all over the place? Should an obese person apologize for embarrassing a family member when they overate? Why go back into the past and beat yourself up for things you did because you hadn't found a way yet to treat your illness? And even though I agree that all addicts will always have this "illness" , this altered brain chemistry that makes it difficult to stop at one drink, I don't think that any of us is "powerless" to do so. Having an illness doesn't mean we can't make a choice; I didn't stop at one drink not because I couldn't but because one drink is pointless to me-it doesn't do anything for me because my brain has a defective reward system, so I know that I must choose between binge or abstain and binging has just become too dangerous for me to continue. But that doesn't make me powerless over alcohol and it doesn't make me "brake-less" over anything. And though in the past, I thought I was supposed to be sorry for my drinking, I really don't feel that guilt anymore. I did the best that I could at the time with the illness and the tools that I have. Now I have better tools, why wallow in regret?
Can I go to AA and disagree with some of the steps? I still don't understand asking for forgiveness for our actions when we were sick. Should a chemo patient apologize for throwing up all over the place? Should an obese person apologize for embarrassing a family member when they overate? Why go back into the past and beat yourself up for things you did because you hadn't found a way yet to treat your illness? And even though I agree that all addicts will always have this "illness" , this altered brain chemistry that makes it difficult to stop at one drink, I don't think that any of us is "powerless" to do so. Having an illness doesn't mean we can't make a choice; I didn't stop at one drink not because I couldn't but because one drink is pointless to me-it doesn't do anything for me because my brain has a defective reward system, so I know that I must choose between binge or abstain and binging has just become too dangerous for me to continue. But that doesn't make me powerless over alcohol and it doesn't make me "brake-less" over anything. And though in the past, I thought I was supposed to be sorry for my drinking, I really don't feel that guilt anymore. I did the best that I could at the time with the illness and the tools that I have. Now I have better tools, why wallow in regret?
Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Eastern Us
Posts: 1,366
Hi effort.
The only requirement for AA membership is a desire to stop drinking. It seems you have that. The steps are suggested as a program of recovery... They aren't required. If you think attending meetings will help you stay sober then go.
The only requirement for AA membership is a desire to stop drinking. It seems you have that. The steps are suggested as a program of recovery... They aren't required. If you think attending meetings will help you stay sober then go.
EndGame
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 4,677
The past doesn't simply evaporate because it's no longer in the present. People often ask "Why do we have to dredge up the past?" As if thinking about and taking responsibility for our actions could be worse than what we actually did. That doing so will somehow make us less of a person or provoke a relapse. Do you know the expression, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it?"
Would it be a better thing to simply acquit people who kill or injure people while drinking than to hold them responsible for their actions? Do the people we've hurt feel less pain, or no pain at all, because we were drinking when we hurt them? Should we forgive people with cancer or heart disease when they hurt other people because they are suffering from something they didn't ask for?
When we choose not to address our behaviors, then we will always be dominated by them. Everything we do in life in every single moment is part of the past as soon as we do it. This includes things that we do while drinking. Does this mean that it's then not at all worthwhile to reflect on what we do and don't do? Or adjust our behavior accordingly?
I am what I do. When I'm drinking, I am what I do while I'm drinking. And that's who I am until I stop drinking and clean up my life which, for me, includes making amends to those who I've harmed. When I drive my car into my neighbor's swimming pool, I'm responsible for the damages. The law and common sense don't care about my BAC, except when it may help to more quickly resolve the case in favor of the damaged party. My "disease" is not responsible. My repeatedly continuing to drink -- a decision, no matter how compelled we are or feel we are to do so -- regardless of the consequences of my drinking, including the harm I bring to others, is my crime.
People who do bad things, and who are not bereft of conscience or sanity, stop doing those bad things when they accept the harm they've done. Why should people with drinking problems be any different? Because we were "drunk" when we did it? Because my "disease" makes me more prone to homicide than a non-drinker?
There's always been a great deal of debate around whether or not alcoholism is a "disease" like other diseases. When cancer patients and people with heart disease do not comply with treatment, then they're much more likely to suffer pain and die sooner rather than later. When an alcoholic does not comply with treatment, we are more likely to damage property, emotionally abuse other people, bring physical harm, anywhere from a bruise to violent death, into other people's lives. Just because we don't ever get around to getting the help we need.
The word 'dredge' is associated with cleaning out a body of water, from the bottom up. Trash, sediment, and mud. It makes the water cleaner and also easier to navigate.
Would it be a better thing to simply acquit people who kill or injure people while drinking than to hold them responsible for their actions? Do the people we've hurt feel less pain, or no pain at all, because we were drinking when we hurt them? Should we forgive people with cancer or heart disease when they hurt other people because they are suffering from something they didn't ask for?
When we choose not to address our behaviors, then we will always be dominated by them. Everything we do in life in every single moment is part of the past as soon as we do it. This includes things that we do while drinking. Does this mean that it's then not at all worthwhile to reflect on what we do and don't do? Or adjust our behavior accordingly?
I am what I do. When I'm drinking, I am what I do while I'm drinking. And that's who I am until I stop drinking and clean up my life which, for me, includes making amends to those who I've harmed. When I drive my car into my neighbor's swimming pool, I'm responsible for the damages. The law and common sense don't care about my BAC, except when it may help to more quickly resolve the case in favor of the damaged party. My "disease" is not responsible. My repeatedly continuing to drink -- a decision, no matter how compelled we are or feel we are to do so -- regardless of the consequences of my drinking, including the harm I bring to others, is my crime.
People who do bad things, and who are not bereft of conscience or sanity, stop doing those bad things when they accept the harm they've done. Why should people with drinking problems be any different? Because we were "drunk" when we did it? Because my "disease" makes me more prone to homicide than a non-drinker?
There's always been a great deal of debate around whether or not alcoholism is a "disease" like other diseases. When cancer patients and people with heart disease do not comply with treatment, then they're much more likely to suffer pain and die sooner rather than later. When an alcoholic does not comply with treatment, we are more likely to damage property, emotionally abuse other people, bring physical harm, anywhere from a bruise to violent death, into other people's lives. Just because we don't ever get around to getting the help we need.
The word 'dredge' is associated with cleaning out a body of water, from the bottom up. Trash, sediment, and mud. It makes the water cleaner and also easier to navigate.
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,981
Originally Posted by effortjoy 
thanks so much for helping me clarify these ideas. It sounds like rational recovery is better for me but do they have meetings like AA does? I think to prevent relapse I want to seek out more face to face support.
Can I go to AA and disagree with some of the steps? I still don't understand asking for forgiveness for our actions when we were sick. Should a chemo patient apologize for throwing up all over the place? Should an obese person apologize for embarrassing a family member when they overate? Why go back into the past and beat yourself up for things you did because you hadn't found a way yet to treat your illness? And even though I agree that all addicts will always have this "illness" , this altered brain chemistry that makes it difficult to stop at one drink, I don't think that any of us is "powerless" to do so. Having an illness doesn't mean we can't make a choice; I didn't stop at one drink not because I couldn't but because one drink is pointless to me-it doesn't do anything for me because my brain has a defective reward system, so I know that I must choose between binge or abstain and binging has just become too dangerous for me to continue. But that doesn't make me powerless over alcohol and it doesn't make me "brake-less" over anything. And though in the past, I thought I was supposed to be sorry for my drinking, I really don't feel that guilt anymore. I did the best that I could at the time with the illness and the tools that I have. Now I have better tools, why wallow in regret?
Can I go to AA and disagree with some of the steps? I still don't understand asking for forgiveness for our actions when we were sick. Should a chemo patient apologize for throwing up all over the place? Should an obese person apologize for embarrassing a family member when they overate? Why go back into the past and beat yourself up for things you did because you hadn't found a way yet to treat your illness? And even though I agree that all addicts will always have this "illness" , this altered brain chemistry that makes it difficult to stop at one drink, I don't think that any of us is "powerless" to do so. Having an illness doesn't mean we can't make a choice; I didn't stop at one drink not because I couldn't but because one drink is pointless to me-it doesn't do anything for me because my brain has a defective reward system, so I know that I must choose between binge or abstain and binging has just become too dangerous for me to continue. But that doesn't make me powerless over alcohol and it doesn't make me "brake-less" over anything. And though in the past, I thought I was supposed to be sorry for my drinking, I really don't feel that guilt anymore. I did the best that I could at the time with the illness and the tools that I have. Now I have better tools, why wallow in regret?
Trudgin
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 6,348
The word disease is used once in the big book and references the spiritual malady. Powerless over alcohol yes , but when the spiritual malady is cured we straighten out mentally and physically. We have lost the power over choice to drink - nothing more.
It's the steps we take - not the meetings we make.
You've asked some great questions - I'd encourage you to go to more meetings and work with some friends. You may like what you discover.
Thanks for the thread
It's the steps we take - not the meetings we make.
You've asked some great questions - I'd encourage you to go to more meetings and work with some friends. You may like what you discover.
Thanks for the thread
Member
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 147
At my AA meetings they stress the only requirement is a desire to stop drinking. So I want to stop drinking or "keeped" stop drinking so I go. I listen to people talk and try to find something that is helpful. No one's perfect with the steps and everyone has different opinions but if you want to stop drinking go and just be open to suggestions. Someone may say something that helps you
Sober Alcoholic
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,539
Sounds like you are getting a little hung up on word usage. Don't. Powerlessness and disease may come to take on a slightly different meaning after you hear how the words are used in the context of AA.
As already mentioned, you need not apologize for your alcoholism. However, IMO you will do well to deal with your past behavior (both under the influence and not). But this is not something that's required or even suggested immediately after starting AA.
Powerless is another word you seem to be getting hung up on. It does not mean helpless or hopeless. It simply means you need more resources. Going to AA will give you resources. There is face to face support, access to the vast amount of experience of the membership and the AA program itself.
It sounds like you have been unable to stay sober long term on your own resources. Get more. Don't get too hung up on a few words.
As already mentioned, you need not apologize for your alcoholism. However, IMO you will do well to deal with your past behavior (both under the influence and not). But this is not something that's required or even suggested immediately after starting AA.
Powerless is another word you seem to be getting hung up on. It does not mean helpless or hopeless. It simply means you need more resources. Going to AA will give you resources. There is face to face support, access to the vast amount of experience of the membership and the AA program itself.
It sounds like you have been unable to stay sober long term on your own resources. Get more. Don't get too hung up on a few words.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NC
Posts: 1,737
I don't know about you, but there were clear signs that drinking led me to make incredibly bad decisions when I was probably not yet an alcoholic. As my drinking progressed from a weekend thing to a daily thing, and in ever increasing amounts, my bad decisions began to affect others, especially those closest to me. Through AA I have learned to not take the first drink, and I have faced and in large part fixed what was fixable in the relationships I abused while drinking.
AA doesn't ask that I apologize for my disease, but rather that I respect that I cannot drink like a normal person. Staying sober and helping others to get sober are two of the ways I make amends. Unity, recovery, service - they are the three legs of the stool, the three legacies of the program.
Perhaps you should check out a 12 & 12 meeting, to learn more about the steps, or get a temporary sponsor who can explain the steps and how they are applied. The hardest thing to hear from someone who can't seem to get sober is "AA didn't work for me" - when in fact, AA doesn't work for anybody. It's not a panacea, it is a process. If you don't work the process, you cannot expect the result. And finally, consider finding yourself lost ten miles in the woods - would you expect it to be a ten yard walk back? Sobriety is like that too - it takes time and a daily effort to keep heading in the same direction to realize progress.
Give it a chance, give yourself a chance. There's nothing special about the folks who make it, other than the fact that they never quit working the solution.
AA doesn't ask that I apologize for my disease, but rather that I respect that I cannot drink like a normal person. Staying sober and helping others to get sober are two of the ways I make amends. Unity, recovery, service - they are the three legs of the stool, the three legacies of the program.
Perhaps you should check out a 12 & 12 meeting, to learn more about the steps, or get a temporary sponsor who can explain the steps and how they are applied. The hardest thing to hear from someone who can't seem to get sober is "AA didn't work for me" - when in fact, AA doesn't work for anybody. It's not a panacea, it is a process. If you don't work the process, you cannot expect the result. And finally, consider finding yourself lost ten miles in the woods - would you expect it to be a ten yard walk back? Sobriety is like that too - it takes time and a daily effort to keep heading in the same direction to realize progress.
Give it a chance, give yourself a chance. There's nothing special about the folks who make it, other than the fact that they never quit working the solution.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Northeast USA
Posts: 1,021
Do you feel a strong need to change your important beliefs so that they fit with AA's 12-Step beliefs and doctrine? Does pounding a square peg into a round hole seem like a good idea? They are your beliefs, they are important to you, you don't have to give them up in order to stay sober.
If you want to keep your current beliefs (and there is absolutely nothing wrong with rejecting AA and it's 12-Step doctrine), you may want to consider skipping AA and using another approach.
I see that SMART Recovery has five different meetings in DC. Why not give them a try? If you like SMART, your issues with AA simply go away, because you won't need AA; no muss, no fuss.
I wish you well.
SMART RecoveryŽ - Meetings in Your Area
If you want to keep your current beliefs (and there is absolutely nothing wrong with rejecting AA and it's 12-Step doctrine), you may want to consider skipping AA and using another approach.
I see that SMART Recovery has five different meetings in DC. Why not give them a try? If you like SMART, your issues with AA simply go away, because you won't need AA; no muss, no fuss.
I wish you well.
SMART RecoveryŽ - Meetings in Your Area
Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 709
I agree with Time2Rise. You're already questioning the 12 step dogma (as you should) and it doesn't jive with you. Realize that AA is a one-size-fits-all approach because you have to "do" the steps. Each one. And realize that if you slip, you have to start your sobriety all over again with Day 1. This isn't to diss AA; rules, structure and black/white thinking work for some people. They don't for me.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Reno, Nv
Posts: 411
Originally Posted by uncorked
I tried AA but I also had several issues with it, step 6 being the biggest (that you're a moral failure because you have a drinking problem.) I just couldn't embrace the whole treatment modale. There are other options out there -- Rational Recovery, Smart Recovery, the 3P's -- but they aren't as readily available as AA. Still, it's very possible to get and stay sober with other programs.
EndGame
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 4,677
Originally Posted by uncorked
I agree with Time2Rise. You're already questioning the 12 step dogma (as you should) and it doesn't jive with you. Realize that AA is a one-size-fits-all approach because you have to "do" the steps. Each one. And realize that if you slip, you have to start your sobriety all over again with Day 1. This isn't to diss AA; rules, structure and black/white thinking work for some people. They don't for me.
I think I've learned why it's so, but I continue to be offended by people who take a thread and steer it towards treatment-bashing. Even when you deny that this is what you're doing. Misrepresentation of the facts is intellectual abuse. It doesn't help anyone and often provokes anger and resentment.
For the record you don't have to do anything in AA or in any other type of treatment. Unless court-mandated, no one has to go to treatment at all. The volume of people who remain unhappy, resentful, and unloving after putting down the drink is a living testament to this reality.
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