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some AA issues

Old 07-05-2016, 08:35 PM
  # 21 (permalink)  
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I don't see any bashing going on. What exactly do you find offensive about saying that the 12 steps are a requisite for AA sobriety? Are you saying that one can 'do AA' and have a 12 step based recovery without actually doing 12 steps? I find your statement confusing.

Instead of claiming abuse, it might be more helpful to educate and clear up the misunderstanding you perceive. That way we all learn something and the conversation can proceed.
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Old 07-05-2016, 08:39 PM
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I was extremely resistant to NA. I was not going to get involved with some outdated zombie mind-control god cult.

Turns out I had very little idea what I was talking about and listened to people who had very little grasp of what the steps of AA/NA are about.

I think NA got it right in the wording of the first step, but most in AA tend to mean that they are powerless over their alcohol-ism, just as we in NA say we are powerless over our addiction. - What does that mean? As a wise young lady I know sometimes says "I can choose when to participate with my disease, but once I do that, I don't always get to choose when to stop." I can't use just one. Likewise, I can't become "not an addict". The step says nothing about not being able to treat it. I just can't remove it. I'm powerless over the fact that my thinking and gut level reactions are sometimes way off, but that doesn't mean I can't "treat" that and learn to take a second to realize that my perspective is off, nor does it mean that I have to act on impulse. Recovery is possible.

Step Six says nothing about being a moral failure. I've taken a good look at how some of the ways that I navigate life (arrogance, escapism, laziness, lying, self-righteousness, etc) harm myself and others. I no longer want the results that engaging in those behaviors produces.

Steps 8 and 9 don't talk about apologizing for drinking. They talk about becoming willing to make amends, and making them as long as they don't harm other people. Some people I won't harm by bringing up specifics about the past. Likewise, some of the biggest amends I make to people are by not using and changing my behavior over the long haul. - Sick or not, we made messes, and grownups clean up their messes. As my sponsor told me, "we aren't responsible for our actions when actively using, but we are accountable for them".

Last but not least. I think the matter of starting your sobriety or clean time at day one after using is about honesty and accountability. Sure, it seems like a reasonable thing to say you've been sober for two years except for a couple of slips. - Imagine having had affairs in the past and reconciling with your significant other. Then imagine telling them that you haven't had any affairs in the past two years except for a couple of "slips", the last one being when you slept with someone else last week. But you have two years since you had an affair, right?
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Old 07-05-2016, 09:12 PM
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EndGame, I apologize if I've offended you. I certainly didn't mean to. I am speaking about my experience with AA only. This was MY takeaway of the many meetings I have attended. Effortjoy had a very valid question, and it was one of mine when I first started going to the meetings. I don't think I was out of line in stating the facts. There are steps you must follow, and one of them is being ready to ask forgiveness for past wrongdoings. And relapsing/slipping means you start at Day 1. I think I also made the point that this approach works very well for some people, it just doesn't work for me. I don't see how you came to the conclusion that I am unhappy, resentful or unloving based on what I said. That's quite a lot to assume. If you met me in person, you'd find that I'd laugh at all your jokes, I suck at directions, but I make fantastic chocolate chip cookies. Please accept my apologies.
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Old 07-05-2016, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by effortjoy View Post
I think it would be a good idea for me to go to at least one AA meeting a week. When I went through 6-8 months of sobriety the last couple of times, I didn't go to AA and I think that made relapse more likely especially because I had so many excuses why once a week binge drinking was fine for me. But I have a couple of issues with basic AA philosophy and I wonder if these will prevent me from being able to benefit from the meetings? One is that I think of my binge drinking as something that I can fight back against and treat. I just don't think it's healthy for me to tell myself that I am "powerless" over alcohol. Why should I make myself feel helpless when confronting an illness or any challenge? I believe that addiction is a disease, similar to obesity being a disease but we aren't "powerless" over our illnesses, there are always things we can do to treat them and improve our lives. Secondly, since addiction has unequivocally been scientifically proven to be a disease, why should I apologize to anyone for my drinking? Would a cancer patient apologize for being sick ? Why go back into the past and start dredging up the worst parts of when we were sick? Basically, I would like to know what's constructive about saying we are "powerless" over our illness and why it would make sense to have to take an inventory and ask forgiveness for being sick ? I respect and probably really need AA so any clarity on these issues would be much appreciated
If you feel it would be a good idea for you to attend AA meetings, then I would encourage you to go. Attendance at a meeting is as simple as showing up. There is no requirement to believe in the AA philosophy, be involved with step work, have a sponsor or have any participation. You may find value in just being around other people who share in your struggle, and if AA is the path you are meant to take then your questions and concerns will sort themselves out over time. Otherwise, you have many other options for recovery if AA turns out not to be a good fit for you.
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Old 07-05-2016, 10:44 PM
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Uncorked, you are providing misinformation. Someone may have told you certain things, but they are incorrect. The BOOK “Alcoholics Anonomous” contains the program, not the people who attend meetings.

With reference to the 12 steps the book states “Here are the steps we took, which are suggested as a program of recovery”. In fact on page 164 it states “Our book is meant to be suggestive only”. The third tradition states that “the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking”. So when you state “you have to "do" the steps. Each one”, this is contradicted by AA's own literature.

Likewise when you speak of “black and white thinking”. If the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking I cannot imagine an organization with fewer requirements and less “black and white”

I think it's best to let people who have a greater familiarity with AA address the specific concerns raised rather than provide misinformation. I think this is why endgameNYC took offence.

Checking what you may have heard in a meeting with the AA literature (before posting it as factual) seems like it might be a good idea.
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Old 07-05-2016, 11:31 PM
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The steps are suggested as a program of recovery...in other words...the steps, as a whole, are suggested as a way to get sober. That's not the same thing as saying the steps are simply a suggestion in AA. If you read the Big Book, in it's entirety (as I have), and really study it, you will see that each step is integral to success in the AA program. In other words, the steps are the program. Effortjoy, If the steps themselves, and/or the verbiage, cause you cognitive dissonance (as was my experience), then the program may not be for you. But that is not to say that you cannot go to meetings for fellowship...because you certainly can. As awuh said, the program itself is not the people in the rooms, but rather it's contained in the Big Book. It can often be very difficult to separate that though. You will hear lots of different interpretations of the words written in the Big Book. Just as it happens during any discussion of any literary work, people interpret the words through their own filters and experiences over time. I say every book is worth a read, so read the Big Book and then you decide what it means to you and if it fits into your life. No need to rely on others to interpret for you. If after you read and study, and the Big Book speaks to you or makes sense, then the program may well be for you.

The good news is, either way, you don't have to live in addiction. There are countless paths to living happily without substances.
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Old 07-06-2016, 03:12 AM
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effortjoy,

Your post caught my attention because of your location. I happen to live just north of you in MD. Then I noticed your join date. You have been struggling with this issue for a long time.

Based on a quick read of some of your other posts, I have some similar traits to you. I'm a professional who lives in the DMV area. I have a wife and two teenage children at home. I never lost my job or ended up on the streets.

But I'm not just like you either. I'm a male, running a marathon would probably kill me and my wife is also an AA member. Similar but different I suppose.

A few random thoughts in no particular order for your consideration:

In attending AA meetings I sometimes wondered: Am I really an "alcoholic?" Some of these people are really a mess. But then I met other folks at AA meetings who were a lot like me. One of them suggested that I not get hung up on a specific term. For me this question works better. Do you like what alcohol is doing to your life?

If you are open to it, finding the right AA meeting would probably benefit you a lot. You can find the right meeting/people in AA if you look. I see everyone from former criminals and skid row bums to Potomac soccer moms who regularly attend AA meetings. I have observed that AA meetings which are just a few miles apart can have very different mixes of people.

There are plenty of AA meetings in the DC area to choose from. I think with a little research you could find a meeting or two that would fit you. This link will get you started. My guess is that you already know about it: http://www.aa-dc.org/meetings. I think what might fit you best is a women only meeting. Obviously I have never attended a women only meeting so I am basing this suggestion on my wife's experience.

You can find plenty wrong with AA. It's not perfect. As my sponsor pointed out, AA was designed originally for low bottom drunks. I find some of the hard core 12 step old timers to be toxic quite frankly. I avoid them. You get out of AA whatever you put in to it.

Good luck.
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Old 07-06-2016, 03:56 AM
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Hi effortjoy

If you don't feel AA is entirely for you there are other meeting based approaches - SMART has already been mentioned, LifeRing is another, SOS and Women for Sobriety are other options

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...formation.html

I'd like to remind all that, while everyone is free to ask questions and to share their experience, respect for other points of view is mandatory in this forum, regardless of which point of the recovery compass you sit on.

Please remember and regard the forum rule

Please Read! The Newcomers Forum is a safe and welcoming place for newcomers. Respect is essential. Debates over Recovery Methods are not allowed on the Newcomer's Forum. Posts that violate this rule will be removed without notice. (Support and experience only please.)
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Old 07-06-2016, 06:22 AM
  # 29 (permalink)  
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my own plan

Thank you so much for all of these helpful replies and links. The truth is there seems to be something worthwhile and relevant to me in each of these recovery programs, including AA. I think I need to be able to use what helps me in each of them and ignore what doesn't. It's interesting because sobriety is in some ways similar to marathon training; there are so many different approaches to success and I need to be able to extract what works from each approach and then tailor it to my own needs. I also realized that feeling like I am "hitting the wall" in training runs and in races is like that moment when I want to binge drink- I feel like I have nothing left inside me to fight back- but the miracle is, that this is never true. I have literally run beyond that wall every time; when we feel like we have nothing left we are often at only 40 percent of our physical, emotional and spiritual capacity, we just need to dig a little deeper and find that strength we all have to take one more step. And then the next. And like every person on this forum who has something crucial to contribute to everyone else; every recovery program has something I can make a part of my own plan. I thought in order to use AA, I had to do all the steps, now I understand I can just use the ones that help me. thank you everyone!

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Old 07-06-2016, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by effortjoy View Post
I think it would be a good idea for me to go to at least one AA meeting a week.
That sounds like a good idea to me.

When I went through 6-8 months of sobriety the last couple of times, I didn't go to AA and I think that made relapse more likely especially because I had so many excuses why once a week binge drinking was fine for me.
A lot of us did this. Some of us, for years or decades. We alcoholics are really good at making excuses or rationalizing. That's the disease part of us that wants us dead but would settle for us hurting ourselves and others.

But I have a couple of issues with basic AA philosophy and I wonder if these will prevent me from being able to benefit from the meetings?
I also had issues with AA philosophy and I left the rooms for many years. When I came back, I guess I reached another level of that hopelessness where I was on my knees willing to do anything the recovered folks told me to do....

One is that I think of my binge drinking as something that I can fight back against and treat.
I was like this with my drinking, too. That's why sometimes high bottoms aren't good enough to treat. I was "fortunate" in that I had a low bottom with something else so I was able to see my drinking for what it was. Some people might tell you that you haven't reached a low enough bottom, but if you see the road ahead, and you're full of hopelessness, that may be good enough.

I just don't think it's healthy for me to tell myself that I am "powerless" over alcohol. Why should I make myself feel helpless when confronting an illness or any challenge?
I just shared this point last week in my home group's Step 1 meeting. I used to have the same exact thought. I shared that powerlessness is not a "weakness", it's a strength. We stop the insanity of trying to play God with our disease. It's a strength to finally say, "Wait a sec. This isn't working. I can't stop. No one else can help me stop. So...no human can help me stop. Something larger than a human can help me stop. (Your conception of) God/Higher Power.

No one's saying you should "make yourself feel helpless". We come into the rooms feeling helpless. But we're not helpless. Because God/your Higher Power can help you.

It's really a difficult concept to explain. I fought it for years and years. You have to experience it.

I believe that addiction is a disease, similar to obesity being a disease but we aren't "powerless" over our illnesses,
Ever meet a morbidly obese person who cannot use an elevator because of their disease? Think it's all physical? It's not. Obesity can be an addiction too, for some people. Some people can drink normally, alcoholics cannot. Some people can eat normally, food addicts cannot. I've known people who died from obesity and I've known people who died from alcoholism. Maybe they still thought they had the power to control their disease, if they just used a little more will-power. :-( Alcoholism and addiction is not about will-power. It's the opposite of will-power.

Ever meet a Diabetic who is told firmly and clearly by their doctor that they will lose their feet if they keep eating carbs and sugar? And with every cell of their being they don't want to lose their feet, but they just cannot stop eating the sugar? Think they are not powerless over their disease? Think it's still just a physical disease?

Ever meet an Alcoholic who is told firmly and clearly that their liver is beyond regeneration and if they drink again, they will die? As they cry to their little children that they swear they won't drink again and they mean it with every bone in their body, but then they find themselves out drinking again, and are so filled with self-hate at doing this again, they don't understand why it keeps happening, that they are on the verge of suicide? Is alcoholism and addiction really just a physical disease??

there are always things we can do to treat them and improve our lives.
Agreed. My life didn't improve until I stopped trying external things to fix my internal problem with an internal solution.

Secondly, since addiction has unequivocally been scientifically proven to be a disease, why should I apologize to anyone for my drinking? Would a cancer patient apologize for being sick ?
Alcoholism is not a disease like cancer. That's like comparing apples to oranges. You don't apologize for being powerless and mentally ill. Nor do you use that as an excuse to continue drinking and continue hurting yourself and others. You amend (change) your actions and behavior.

Why go back into the past and start dredging up the worst parts of when we were sick?
Why? Because we like to shove everything down and go into that nice cushy place of "denial" which only looks nice and cushy. Until we face the dark parts of our soul, we will never heal. We will continue hurting ourselves and hurting others. By the time I got to Step 9, I was actually excited and eager to make amends. I was finally thinking of others and not just me, me, me, me...

Basically, I would like to know what's constructive about saying we are "powerless" over our illness and why it would make sense to have to take an inventory and ask forgiveness for being sick ? I respect and probably really need AA so any clarity on these issues would be much appreciated
The inventory is about who we're angry at. It shows the anger we are still carrying around from perhaps a very early age. We didn't forgive them. We're not forgiving ourselves. You don't seem to have much self-awareness yet since you keep writing about "asking forgiveness". It's not about asking forgiveness. When you get to Step 9, if you did 1-8 properly, you will see how you will *want* to apologize and amend your behavior.

Just curious, were you a psychology major in college?

Word of advice: if you do decide to continue with AA and do the steps, just focus on where you are in the present moment. Don't overanalyze the steps or think too much about them.

Feel free to PM me privately if you want with questions.
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Old 07-06-2016, 07:52 AM
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I would suggest you really listen to what some people on here are saying - one of whom is Centered3.

I won't repeat the eloquent way others have already explained, described and discussed AA here, but will just say that AA is for me.

Re the binge drinking. Many of us tried to "define" ourselves as a certain type of alcoholic; most of us who are successful (SO FAR!) in our recovery have acknowledged that, really, we are all just alcoholics. Labels can often hurt, or lead us to believe (pretend) that we "aren't as bad as [ whoever/whatever kind of alcoholic] - you might find this helpful:
The ?Periodic? Alcoholic | Drug Abuse Helpline

Bottom line, if you need to stop drinking it doesn't matter how you get there. This isn't a contest, except in the fact that everyone who stops drinking wins, and we want as many winners as possible. Good luck.
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Old 07-06-2016, 08:09 AM
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Thx first off for question coz a buddy several mths ago couldn't understand why we admit being powerless over a disease or drinking;guess what he's doing today? sponsoring someone! As for comparing it to obesity, that's neither here(bit of a stretch but I could be wrong) nor there imho coz as earlier posts have shared, I can't have just a shot of whiskey & call it a day but have to keep pounding till I pass out.
If you didn't harm family &/or friends when drinking, then of course need not apologize & more power to you coz that's rare to hear of
But the fact that you posted your question & concern about AA, which by the way there's nothing wrong w/ it coz just celebrated 80 yrs last yr having transformed millions of lives around the world including mine, shows your curious & want to change the way of living.
Suggestion would be having an open mind & willing to try it out for a good solid year, then post back an honest assessment
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Old 07-06-2016, 08:28 AM
  # 33 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by effortjoy View Post
Can I go to AA and disagree with some of the steps? I still don't understand asking for forgiveness for our actions when we were sick. Should a chemo patient apologize for throwing up all over the place? Should an obese person apologize for embarrassing a family member when they overate?
I think this is important. You are setting up a false equivalency that could let you off the hook for bad behavior while drinking. And I think it is not possible to recover while still letting yourself off the hook.

You are equating physical symptoms with behavior. You have no control over symptoms. So there is no need for an alcoholic to apologize for throwing up, staggering, or having a headache the next day. Just like with an chemo patient, these are symptoms not under control.

But getting into a fight, creating a hazard by driving under the influence, shirking off responsibilities, cheating, stealing, cruelty, etc. are behaviors that you can control. It does not matter that you would never have done such behaviors sober--the fact that you did them drunk does not get you off the hook. You did them.

I have known someone who went through chemo and was impossible to deal with. Lots of self-pity and lashing out. And he did apologize for his behavior after.

Having a disease does not mean you get to treat the rest of the world like dirt. And you do need to apologize if you did.

Part of what makes it easier to stay sober is the recognition of the damage you do while drinking. If you can brush it off, with the ready excuse, "Hey I cannot help it! I am an alcoholic!" that would tend to make drinking MORE attractive, not less.
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Old 07-06-2016, 08:34 AM
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I forgot to mention one other thing. Alcoholism and substance addiction are not just physical diseases, like cancer as you said, because even when the substance is not in our bodies, we still want it, no matter what. That's a problem of the mind.
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Old 07-06-2016, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by miamifella View Post
I think this is important. You are setting up a false equivalency that could let you off the hook for bad behavior while drinking. And I think it is not possible to recover while still letting yourself off the hook.

You are equating physical symptoms with behavior. You have no control over symptoms. So there is no need for an alcoholic to apologize for throwing up, staggering, or having a headache the next day. Just like with an chemo patient, these are symptoms not under control.

But getting into a fight, creating a hazard by driving under the influence, shirking off responsibilities, cheating, stealing, cruelty, etc. are behaviors that you can control. It does not matter that you would never have done such behaviors sober--the fact that you did them drunk does not get you off the hook. You did them.

I have known someone who went through chemo and was impossible to deal with. Lots of self-pity and lashing out. And he did apologize for his behavior after.

Having a disease does not mean you get to treat the rest of the world like dirt. And you do need to apologize if you did.

Part of what makes it easier to stay sober is the recognition of the damage you do while drinking. If you can brush it off, with the ready excuse, "Hey I cannot help it! I am an alcoholic!" that would tend to make drinking MORE attractive, not less.
So I guess my drinking was rare because I have never gotten into a fight, hurt anyone or damaged anyone' s property when drinking. When I binge drink I start telling everyone around me how much I love them and how amazing they are (I have checked with those closest to me to check that this is not just false recall) But I have vomited, blacked out and been extremely self destructive so maybe that is why I don't get the making amends part...
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Old 07-06-2016, 10:13 AM
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This is the final warning on this thread which will be closed if the discussion continues debating program methods. Some posts have been removed:

Please Read! The Newcomers Forum is a safe and welcoming place for newcomers. Respect is essential. Debates over Recovery Methods are not allowed on the Newcomer's Forum. Posts that violate this rule will be removed without notice. (Support and experience only please.)
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Old 07-06-2016, 10:26 AM
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"Has unequivocally been proven." Totally on board with the promulgations of contemporary medicine. OK.

I think the 'disease' paradigm for addiction is interpreted and often not very useful. In the very least debatable and evolving. If it is a disease, then it is psychological interlaced with physical corollaries in which decision making plays a role, for example, to pick up, to not pick up, to seek therapy or no, to try anything new or not. There is an interplay between chemistry, anatomy and the freedom of choice you describe. Free will may be debatable, but it's very clear that even as a binge drinker, I am intimately experiencing a decision-making process that either feeds into a debatably diseased outlook or ameliorates that outlook.

It has also been unequivocally proven that cancer has a physiological and environmental ontology, although sure, quacks often like to point to some kind of underlying attitude problem, but that doesn't hold up. Nice slight of hand, but I'm not buying.
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Old 07-06-2016, 10:33 AM
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Hi Effort Joy . I can understand exactly how you have been feeling, the thoughts buzzing about your head , like , don't like AA, . As has been mentioned, and I am giving you the facts as it states in the book'' Alcoholics Anonymous'' , what can be heard at meetings can be correct or incorrect , people with short or long term sobriety , some work the steps some don't . and a lot of misinformation gets passed about .


Now its no wonder people can get confused , now if you want AA to really work for you ? first things you do is ask for help from somebody that is working the AA program in their life , that means they are ''Armed With The Facts '' .

Facts are, that nowhere in the Book does it say that alcoholism is a ''disease '' it claims its an illness , it talks ''once only '' of a Spiritual Disease which the book refers as a spiritual malady . As Awuh explained AA program is entirely suggested , so one ''chooses '' . Funny enough AA also says in the book , if you are not convinced ?then head to the nearest bar and do some experimental drinking again one ''chooses '' no demands are made anywhere .

AA does suggest that finding a Power greater than yourself ''of your choosing '' or God as you understand him/her any faith or religion , non faith non religion again ''choose or not ''

And it doesn't demand any money of anybody , a token donation if you can afford it ''choice '' Non political , Anonymous , no second names .no form filling

Personally I don't find anything disturbing or controversial '' choice '' its simple just stay or stay away its as simple as that , no one will ever get well or recover anywhere by attending a place they do not like or believe in'' will they''.

Point is I would rather be sitting in some recovery based fellowship thinking I might be an alcoholic than outside the rooms making out I am not , so its down to ''choice '' drink or not ? live or die ? suffer or not ? =choose , I wish you well whatever you choose take care .

Regards Stevie recovered 12 03 2006
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Old 07-06-2016, 11:03 AM
  # 39 (permalink)  
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I had to adopt the mindset that I was quitting , for good, that I was making the decision to committed abstinence, I was once and for all done with alcohol.
"I don't drink, no matter what" that was day one and without that stance , there would have been multiple day ones since, like all the countless ones before making that decision and the commitment to not change my mind about it.
Any plan or method without that commitment is misplaced at best and most likely fruitless, the decision won't/can't 'come' from a plan/method but those things can help and support that decision. Without that firm commitment anything that places conditions on being sober will just be ammo for the AV to use against your resolve to not drink.
No Matter What, anything that suggests otherwise needs to be jettisoned, No Matter What isn't impossible the AV just wants you to feel that way.
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Old 07-06-2016, 11:26 AM
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Addiction hasn't unequivocally been proven to be a disease. I find parts of AA useful and parts less so, as they say "take what you want and leave the rest."
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