desypete

its one of the reason we say in aa that honesty is the key to success for us : )

we not only lie to others but we lie to ourselves and until we can learn to be honest with ourselves we have no chance of being honest to anyone else

the problem is we can not see when we are stuck in that madness the difference and it takes a long time till we start to see the difference

as an example
i once bought a train ticket to go to an area but it was for the next days travel, i had made a silly mistake and pressed the wrong button that gave me a ticket for that same days travel instead of the next day

so i rang up the company explaining what i had done and they told me there was no problem in changing the ticket over but i would have to pay a £10 admin fee
i went nuts over having to pay another £ 10 on top
so right there and then i hit on a plan i went down to the ticket office to complain, i seen the man behind the counter and i started to complain about the machine that gave me the ticket as it had made a mistake and given me the wrong date for travel

i knew i was lieing but i was doing so because i didnt want to pay another £ 10 pounds on top
the guy behind the counter tried to explain to me how its impossible the machine made a mistake !!
i got very angry at him as he was not believing my lies, i kicked off and made a holy scene over it all, threatening the guy i will have his job blah blah blah, how dare he tell me that i made the mistake !!!

in the end the guy just said to me hey its no problem i will change it for you at no extra cost just to calm me down
so i had won i got away with it and my lie did the trick

except i went to an aa meeting that same day and my head was playing hell with me
i shared about what i had done in the aa room and i got my answer as to what i had to do
so the next day i went and found the guy in the ticket office and i had to say how sorry i was and i told him the truth as it was me and my fault and i did make the mistake and how i was only tying to get away with not paying the admin

he was shocked at my honesty, he thanked me for it and he didnt charge me the admin fee

this is just one example of how i can be dishonest and belive my own lies and yet because i am in aa i can not get away with doing it anymore i have to learn how to be honest
today i might compain about things if i make a mistake but if i have to pay up i will have to just pay up and cut out all that drama in my life

hence its very much a learning process

ArtFriend

Well, this is a good question. I think it's easier to "blame" than to objectively consider the situation. Love? Grace? Sorely lacking in my family unfortunately.

Anna

For me, I learned to lie at about age 4. I grew up in a chaotic, violent household and even at the age of 4, I knew I needed to lie in order to save myself. From then on, I would lie about things that were not necessarily significant. For example, I would tell school friends that I had seen a movie which I hadn't seen. It was as if a switch was turned on for me.

So, decades later when I turned to alcohol, lying was the norm for me.

And, learning to tell the truth was a huge hurdle for me in early recovery.

Thomasthetank

Yeah, I really relate to this. I lived a life where sometimes I would lie to save myself, I don't regret those lies. I was backed into a corner. But it definitely became a pattern of behavior.

I don't lie anymore, to the point where I sometimes think I should have. It's a principle, I guess, If I lie once then I'm worried I'm walking down a dangerous path.

lighteningbug

I lied because i didn't want to look bad. I always try to look like the good girl. Liar liar pants on fire.

ArtFriend

desypete - great story and example. I know that one of the tenants of AA is to make reparations and be honest. Just wished my bro would go.

Your story reminded me of a time when my brother visited me with his daughter (she was about 6 years old). We went to a wax museum. You buy the ticket, go in through the door, go through the exhibit and then you come out the same door into the lobby area where you can buy souvenirs, etc. His daughter wanted to go through the exhibit again. There was no one in the lobby area, so my brother said, yeah, let's just go back in. No one will notice. You actually had to buy another ticket to do the tour again and I reminded him of that. So, he says no one is in the lobby area right now and we can sneak back in. I refused and I told him he was setting a bad example for his daughter. Of course, he was mad at me and we went home. But later he said he was impressed that I refused to cheat. He said not cheating, especially when no one would know otherwise, was very honest. And I said that I would have known, and so would his daughter. Then he poured himself a huge cocktail. That was about 15 years ago.

luvmygirls

I think the short answer is self-preservation. Does your aunt know that both you and your brother are alcoholics? If so, she may not know which "liar" to believe, especially because it sounds like your brother is quite good at it. In any case, understanding why may not bring much peace or resolution. It is what it is...the only thing you can control is to engage, or try to detach. Good luck.

Try18

I don't know any alcoholic that wasn't a liar, whether to others or themselves.

Any alchy who says they didn't lie, is quite possibly lying

Verte

At the most basic level, as long as someone is listening the alcoholic is not alone. Keeping people listening would then require turning 'lying' into an art form - a twisted entertainment of sorts.

ScottFromWI

i lied to myself and my family about my drinking. "Why" I did it really doesn't matter to me all that much, it's a lot more important to me to be honest today and moving forward so I don't go back to my old ways.

Why other people lie/blame/etc. is really kind of irrelevant to me as well. I can't control their actions or thoughts, so I really coudln't care less why they do those things. I can control my actions today, so that's what I worry about.

LimaBean3000

In my opinion...drinking alcohol is just a SYMPTOM of a much deeper problem. I can use alcohol, drugs, food, work, money....anything to fill the "void". I believe I was "born" different than "normal" people. Since I was a little girl, I have always been very afraid, anxious and didn't feel like I really "fit in" even though by all accounts I DID.

I was a master manipulator and a selfish and self-centered person. I LIED to make sure I always got what I wanted and never lost what I had. I lied because I didn't feel good about myself. I lied because I was full of fear and anxiety...etc. etc.

If I take away the alcohol, drugs, food or whatever it is that I am addicted to without working on the ROOT of my problem.....that just makes me a "DRY miserable person " instead of "WET miserable person."

Personally I've stayed sober WITH a program of recovery (my program of choice is AA) and WITHOUT one. When I was using a program, I was so much more honest, confident, happy, serene etc. than I was without one. Personally I would rather drink than be a dry drunk EVER AGAIN.

I lied to get what I wanted. My childhood was so traumatic that I was always afraid of losing control and being hurt again. I lied as much as I needed to to make sure no one could ever hurt me again! When I was drinking I lied about everything! Half the time I didn't even know WHY I was lying!!! I'm not sure if any of that makes sense but that's just MY opinion and that's how it was for me. I'm just glad I never have to live that way again!

LimaBean minus alcohol with NO recovery program = miserable, lying, controlling, self-centered, angry LimaBean :-(

LimaBean minus alcohol PLUS a recovery program = happy, honest, joyous & free LimaBean. :-)

Take what you want and leave the rest. ;-)

Be well!

LB3000

NoelleR

Liars lie, and yes, some/many alcoholics lie, but alcohol does not create the behavior.

Re: #1 above. Well, I guess that depends on the alcoholics you know. I, personally, have known quite a few, even active, alcoholics who do not lie.

Re: #2 above. Since this is based on your experience, it is opinion and not fact; perhaps you might want to widen your group of acquaintances. See my reply to #1.

(o:
NoelleR

bm2bob

You realize that this is still a generalization right? It's pretty hard to totally negate one's personal circumstances, and you clearly haven't.

I think alcoholics lie for the same reason anyone else lies. Because telling the truth has a consequence they would rather skip.

If he lies when it would be just as easy to tell the truth, I would think ACOA.

NoelleR

What a sad place to be; a sad outlook on life; a sad perspective. I way prefer my positive outlook and my personal experience; liars lie, some alcoholics are liars (therefore they lie), but not all, not even most in my experience.

(o:
NoelleR

Fly N Buy

So, those in active alcoholism are indeed typically highly manipulative covering their arse's daily leading to quite the leaders in veracity inconsistency.

Conversely, my experience is those alcoholics in recovery working a program tend to be living a life of rigorous honesty.

I find truth to be an entity unto itself. It simple is. One develops an acute sense for the truth in speech and postings. It is directly linked to development of spirituality.

All that stated, there are no absolutes as man is flawed and sinful by definition.

At high school graduation I was vote an award by my peers - Best at never getting caught. Lying is the engine of vehicle called manipulation. Mine would have been among the fastest on the autobahn!



FlyN

Dee74

I don't believe it's impossible
It may take a little time but I think truth trumps lies.

D

herradura

A couple of things. 1. I don't lie, gave that up when I got married. Used to lie, but have not for 18 years. 2. Yes it is possible to have your character totally debased by another family member, this is from experience. If you are not around to defend yourself, then you can become a persona non grata. This has happened to me with some of my relatives. Caused by a sister who is facebook friends with them. They never ask me about myself, but have elected to "hate" me based upon the rants of a very mentally unstable sister.

This is what I did. I quit. I don't contact the sister or the relatives and do not have any contact with them. Got off of all social media and all "family" talk. Result: I am extremely happy. If people don't care to ask you about your side of a story or event, and chooses to judge you, then this is a no win proposition. So quit! You can say, ok, your right, whatever, I have a life to lead, and it does not include you. Very liberating. You cant change the way people think, if they don't give you a chance, so quit. You also dont have to say or do anything, just remove yourself from the hate and pain.

I don't think Alcoholics lie any more or less than other people. A lot of alcoholics accept they are alcoholic, and just say, hey I was drunk or I am drunk. Is it right? no, but it is what it is.

Good luck with the family!

Soberwolf

Everybody lies in some way shape or form

isnt there a jim carey film where he cant lie (Liar Liar)

Hawks

Lies work.

Imagine you had to explain yourself in court after putting your car into a pole and running off before the cops got there.

Stand up in court and say "well your honour, I polished off 12 beers and half a bottle of scotch, then I decided that a little drunk drive was in order, so I drove to the store and got another six pack and after I fell asleep at the wheel I smashed my car into that pole.
Besides your honour I'm a total scoff law and I really don't care at all for societies laws and have zero regard for other peoples safety or property "

Or produce a piece of paper from a mechanic saying that the cause of the crash was a defective accelerator cable.

Tell a lie... Walk free.

Tell the truth... Go to jail (do not pass go, do not collect $200)

ArtFriend

Of course it is a generalization. I don't personally KNOW every alcoholic in the world. But, the alcoholics in MY world lie. So, to be clear: I cannot say that every alcoholic in the world lies because I don't know all of them. I can say that all the alcoholics in my sphere of existence do lie. I didn't think that I would have define my statement so carefully. My bad.