Sapling

Then why not put your focus on what worked for you...Rather than what didn't?

BackToSquareOne

I 100% agree with you Threshold. There are way too many factors that go into the equation. When I had a fairly bad run of depression going on people would say "just pick yourself up by your bootstraps". Like that was possible.

I've seen people with 20 years on here relapse. To keep trying with a lot of problems going on makes you a pretty remarkable person.

onlythetruth

I often do write about what worked for me, Sapling.

However, the topic of this thread is the "those unfortunates" passage in the Big Book.

RobbyRobot

AA program and AA sobriety is not for everyone, and it never can be for everyone. No single method or cause for alcoholism recovery can be for everyone, and that is a good thing, for people love to have choices and to choose differently, lol.

I'm AA sober. So I'm never going to throw AA under the bus. On the other hand, I've been around the rooms long enough to know how some true blue AA members indeed believe AA is the only way to sobriety for everyone and anyone, and they insist their sober experiences prove AA as being the one-and-only real deal for the real alcoholic.

I've always found these folk amusing and not any more dangerous or important then the naysayers against AA sobriety. I think both extremes need to check themselves.

I do know that it speaks volumes to watch otherwise sensible folk attempt to get all their ducks in a row to have their jump-up moment on the soapbox to bash whatever they seriously misunderstand.

Intelligent folk already have realized AA works; and realized so does other methods work too, such as AVRT, etc. Just quitting period works too I understand, but is not popularly talked about. Hmmm.

It really comes down to our own experiences. What worked worked for us respectively. I'm satisfied enough for myself. AA program helped get me sober the AA Way, and still helps today, keep me sober the AA Way, but at the end of the day... AA program was not, and is not enough for me... has been, and is today, my ongoing experience. I would hope that others can as well see that none of us are so equipped or otherwise gifted with a kind of sobriety which affords us to speak for all others as to what works or dosen't work for whomever in their respective lives.

fuaim

it still makes me cringe too-as do some
other things i read at times in some of
AA books.
some helps me some dont.
if there is anything in my reply that disturbes you or anyone else that reads it-i apologise its not ment to-
i struggled for 11 yrs-not because i was dishonest but because no one had the time or cared
to sit down with me and help me through the steps even when i was sat in meetings asking for help-
the people who did sponsor me
didnt sit down with me or help me through the steps-
some took me thru some of the steps-and i hold no grudge against
them around that (still mates with one of them)
so i was very mixed up and confused about things.
some people can get the steps by sitting in the rooms
or reading the books or whatever -
but i couldnt for one thing i could hardley focus
was in pycosis and very ill.
i needed someone to help me understand them take them help me through them show me what to do.
and even now the steps have worked for me around booze-
no longer obsess with it dont think about it-
so it worked it did what it said it would-and im glad of that.
but i still on and off obsess with another drug-and my life aint wonderfull
the steps didnt answer every problem-
also i wanted help with the steps -right back to 11 yrs ago-
some people dont want them or to try them-
thats up to us -its not forced-
some people dont even need the steps to keep off booze-
i also had problems accepting powerlessness -there were many times i hit a bottom and if someone had grabbed me at those times i would have
taken first part of first step-but they didnt and so i sat in fear confusion and anger _Pain-
building up a case against it all and running off again-
drinking and or useing-
i wanted to find another way or be ok doing it-but i didnt find another way.
in end someone did help-i needed someone to help me with it-( all !) and am gratefull to her for that-im a very honest person-
even when in active drink drug use pre-AA i did lie at times
but not every word that came out of my mouth was a lie-
i could be brutally honest-maby thats not the right way tho
thanks for your post hope things work out for you.x

Spawn

Changing our way of thinking isn't easy, that's why one the slogans is keep an open mind.

Mark75

"those unfortunates...."

It sounds like an insult, doesn't it?

What it must have been like in the 1935... you think alcoholism carries a stigma now, can you imagine???... That was only two years after prohibition ended. Jails, institutions and death were all there was if you couldn't stop drinking... still true today.... but now there are rehabs, AA, AVRT... swank rehabs in Florida and Malibu... people willing to sign off on reality shows, putting it all out there... Betty Ford, Charlie Sheen (I guess he's sober now ), Craig Ferguson...

How much safer it is now to be honest... huh?

langkah

'when I presented for treatment at a hospital based treatment center, my counselor's sole credential was that he was an AA member and he told me that I must go to AA.'

Sounds like you've got a problem you need to address with your hospital based treatment center counselor. I certainly understand he upset you by saying that.

Did I ever tell you about the wrong thing this guy in SMART once said to me? It almost made me post incessantly about how bad SMART is for years to the great boredom of all, but I fortunately realized that doing something that weird based on someone's long ago words in a conversation meaningless today would be a very odd thing.

But keep after AA whenever you can until he takes that all back, that thing he said you didn't much like back then.

BASEjumper

In my mind this has more to do with denial than a particular program. The addiction specialists in the OP rehab I was in told me once that in their observation denial is the biggest killer of addicts and alcoholics.

When you admit you need help, there's a lot of resources now out there to help you. But if you can't recognize the problem and deal with it, then it will eventually kill you. Some people never break through the denial, and they end up dying.

I think that's what the authors of the AA book picked up on, the necessity of honesty in breaking through denial. No program can fix you if you don't want to be fixed.

Db1105

The longer I'm sober, the more I see just how right that paragraph is.

BackToSquareOne

I don't buy the denial arguement, most alcoholics know they have a problem. Many are full of a thousand kinds of fear regardless of the fronts they may put on. Many hide the fear behind a cloak of pride. Too proud to ask for help, what's behind the pride....fear. Just my opinion tho.

midgetcop

Reading that paragraph in this day and age, I can see where that interpretation comes from considering that other treatment options available. But I don't think that was the original intention, and as others have said, probably referred to the fact that there are addicts out there who will absolutely NOT admit to having a problem and refuse any honest attempt to get sober.

onlythetruth

Laghah,

As I believe you well know, my point was not about the particular counselor. My experience with him was not unusual, and I used him as illustration of a systemic problem.

RobbyRobot

The process of denial was a real life series of ongoing experiences in my drinking days. Scales fell from my eyes when I finally "sobered up" for lack of better words. I really did (and do) have an ongoing process of complete revolution of my psyche from alcoholic mind to sober mind, so for me alcoholic denial experiences are not just semantics or whatever.

Yeah, I knew about my alcoholic hell for sure. I had absolutely no idea though what sobriety or otherwise living sans alcohol could really become. Even today, years after I have stopped drinking, I still see where I am needing to keep moving forward or else sit still, fall backward, and eventually die drunk as a real possibility if I choose to simply do nothing.

Of course alcoholism is not the end and begining of all things when sober, but when drunk alcoholism was my everything. Having any understanding of sobriety while I was drunk was a hopeless dream at best, and a torturous nightmare at worse.

Was that denial?

BadCompany

Where exactly is this that I can get a counseling job with only attendance at AA as my only credential? I'd like to find that job.

Ranger

As usual, you've got me thinking, BTSO.

In retrospect it is embarrassingly crystalline that I drank alcoholically for the better part of 15 years. Even so, I do not recall recognizing the problem until the last eight months give or take. Was the gap between 1993 and those final eight months filled by some flavor of “denial”, fear (as you mentioned) or insanity itself? Hard to say (and perhaps ultimately inconsequential), I suppose.

Whatever it was, given my experience with not giving a second thought to addict behaviors, it seems quite plausible one could drink alcoholically for decades and ultimately meet an untimely death due to alcohol without ever seriously considering the notion one is alcoholic.

Unfortunate.

RobbyRobot

Not sure about the USA, but up here many detox centers routinely used and still use AA lay persons to "talk" with the detox clients. As well, some rehabs and half-way houses, sober houses, etc. do the same, and those lay persons can sometimes earn a pay as well depending on the respective client situation, such as when addicts / alcoholics will only work with others who have actually recovered.

Threshold

Still thinking outloud...Denial comes in many forms. Denial is NOT always "active" as in willful and intended. Denial can also mean the inability to see, understand, acknowledge, be honest.

In the BB, the quote being discussed refers to some hopeless cases as unfortunates, not as willfull SOB's. Some people just can't see it, understand it, address it, and Bill W considers them unfortunate, not bad.

Sometimes too, I think the denial is NOT that there is a problem , but the inability to believe, understand and accept that there might be a solution.

Accepting the problem, while unable to accept that there is a solution leaves one just as stuck as if they didn't admit to a problem in the first place.

It DOES seem that all my loose ends can be traced back to fear.

muffin1707

"Keep It Simple Stupid". It kind of sums up what TA is saying. I believe that everyone enters sobriety at a different level. Some need more support than others because they are NOT fully committed mentally or emotionally.

I know I WILL never drink again. That's it. Finished. I live my life like that now and very rarely ever think of drinking.

I am on 18 days not. I know it is not much. However, I have been tested severely last week with HUGE problems. But, I did not want a drink.

It is a mind set I think.

Keep it simple. Do what you think you need. You are the only person who really knows you.

BackToSquareOne

I looked up the fear and love based emotions on this thread : http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ml#post3322216
I was way over on the fear based side in my drinking days. Lack of understanding and rejection of the notion that there might be a solution was my biggest issue. A healthy dose of pride kept me from exploring other options.

I had an uncle that was a Drill Instructor in the Marines, after he retired he drank himself to death. He blew out an aneurysm in his stomach and died at 51. He knew he had a problem but was too proud to seek help. He drank that Canadian stuff Windsor out of an iced tea glass.

I think that when the general public hears the word "Denial" they assume the alcoholic is clueless that he/she has a problem. I think most know tho.