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the "unfortunates" of the big book

Old 03-31-2012, 09:03 PM
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"Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average. There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest."
There was an Old Timer (my sponsor's hubby, Hugh D) in the San Fernando Valley out in Los Angeles that explained it this way:

"Yep that is the Smart Azz or the Wet Brain. So if you are sitting on the curb and wondering which one you are, ......................... Wet Brains can't think."

Yes he said this at almost all of his 'speaking engagement' as I have tapes of many of his 'talks.'

He would get a laugh and then would explain further on what was meant. In essence, even back in 1939 when the book was written, they already knew that with some ..........alcohol had so damaged the person both physically and mentally that they were no longer able to grasp the idea yet apply it to themselves.

Yes at the VA Hospital in Northridge Ca. I have seen alcoholic in end stage Wernicke–Korsakoff syndrome (Wet Brain) and no they cannot think.

And, of course, part of it apply's to those that are going to AA meetings for reasons other than wanting sobriety, ie Court Ordered, to get their spouse, parents, SO off their backs, to appease employer, but not yet ready to do it for themselves.

I do believe that things that you find that bother you today, as the days go buy and you continue to grow and change in your recovery, you will find they no longer bother you.

I still miss my first sponsor who passed in '99 and that beautiful man who passed in '92, very much!!!! I was blessed to have Bev in my life for 18 1/2 years and Hugh in my life for a bit over 12 years.

J M H O

Love and hugs,





So I am sorry that this phrase seems to bother you.
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Old 03-31-2012, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by zorah View Post
ok, a little rant. i go bug-eyed ballistic inside whenever i hear that chapter 5 thing about the "unfortunates" who cannot give themselves to this "simple program" because they're "constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves."
Yes it is unfortunate that some are not honest with themselves.

Honesty is the first principle of the twelve steps. The big jumping of point or

acceptance if you will. It also is not left behind with the completion/admition

of the first step. Not only is it used in the other steps but is also usefull in

practicing these principles in all out affairs. To leave dishonesty and lies

behind and allow truth and light to come in my world is absolutely essential to

my program. If I don't have it I am drinking again. It has happened before.

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Old 03-31-2012, 09:19 PM
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Love and hugs,
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Old 03-31-2012, 10:06 PM
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Well not everything you read is true and you don't have to believe everything you read. It certainly doesn't work for everyone nor is it for everyone. It's kind of funny because it's a self conflicting line in big book. Kind of weird. Try not to worry too much about it. I'm very glad I did not give myself to this simple program.
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Old 03-31-2012, 11:45 PM
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Old 04-01-2012, 12:09 AM
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Thanx for the responses. We've all seen people slip over the edge because they couldn't ask for help or respond when it was offered. It pains my heart to remember.... I hope they've found peace, wherever they are.

Zorah
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Old 04-01-2012, 12:26 AM
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Well there are more recovery options available these days. I think anyone sincere about getting sober has the chance. But there are some who unfortunately won't get that chance, will just continue blindly, and you can advise them all that you want, it won't make any difference. I knew someone like that irl. In the early days maybe you could get through to her (for awhile) but towards the end stages, I guess she had impairment with her reasoning and complete denial. She very briefly did meetings but never took them seriously at all, so it didn't really do her any good.
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Old 04-01-2012, 12:33 AM
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When I hear this part of the book, I think about the highly narcissistic person who can never admit they have a fault of any kind. I've actually known someone who was like this, and an alcoholic, and her alcoholism did kill her.

She was highly educated and hated the idea of turning her will over or believing she was powerless over anything. The thought of doing the twelve steps was actually disgusting to her. It was clear to those who knew her that she was her own worst enemy, but she could never see it.

She tried to detox at home, and died on the third day. Because she didn't trust doctors and knew better than they did what she needed.
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Old 04-01-2012, 01:52 AM
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So, another BB study thread?

Is it really such a mystery regarding the unfortunates who can't seem to get honest with themselves? I just read the newcomer threads and there are several poster children for that inability there, and if you've any heart at all then you'd view them as unfortunate.

Note the word used is unfortunate, they are not bad or stupid. It's a morally neutral term unlike some other writings regarding people who don't stay sober in other programs, viewed as morally failed, something far different than saying 'it just seems to be the way they are'. Though that's plenty enough to light up the hyper sensitive who are not involved in the least, they haven't a clue how they're referred to in other programs. Somehow that doesn't matter, it's only how different passages can be skewed in AA literature to fuel anew their perpetual outrage that is the focus week after week.

I like that about AA.
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Old 04-01-2012, 02:06 AM
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Originally Posted by keepfinding2 View Post
I'm very glad I did not give myself to this simple program.
I guess I just have to be grateful for the people that did...Without whom...I probably wouldn't be here. I think if you have a program of recovery that works....Talk about how it works...
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Old 04-01-2012, 04:51 AM
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Originally Posted by zorah View Post
ok, a little rant. i go bug-eyed ballistic inside whenever i hear that chapter 5 thing about the "unfortunates" who cannot give themselves to this "simple program" because they're "constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves." They were born that way, apparently. What the f---? What does that even mean? Me being me, I automatically think I must be one of them because self-condemnation is my default. This program doesn't work for everyone, first of all. Second, dishonest, self-serving but sober people are in AA like everywhere else. Honesty is a work in progress for all of us and I for one cannot ever think of anyone as constitutionally incapable of it. I wince whenever I hear that paragraph and want to run for the hills screaming.
If you hang around for a while you will see the truth in the statement.

All the best.

Bob R
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Old 04-01-2012, 05:38 AM
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oh boy this again. I'm setting the over/under at 4 pages before the lock. hope im wrong. if we could check our egos and prejudices we would see that these "rival" programs both have merit. I personally know people for whom AA doesn't work and honesty isn't their problem, at least in regards to the truth of their condition. I also know people for whom AVRT doesn't work. how and why is pretty dadgum irrelevant when we're talking about saving ones arse. some gratitude for there being multiple treatment options is in order, and that includes ole AA.

for me personally I have always been a spiritually inclined person. I was meditating and studying Buddhism years before I even knew I was an addict. I had direct experience with applying a spiritual solution to a real life problem when I was incarcerated for a year and turned to prayer, meditation, and yoga and it salvaged my sanity and transformed my perspective. so when my addiction took hold years the later the spiritual solution of the 12 steps was appealing to me. And it has worked for me. now at over two years sober I have taken an interest in AVRT and SMART as ways to complement my spiritual recovery program. I'm always interested in ways to better understand myself. Im not a fan of 12 step dogma and individual arrogance which both rear their heads when these threads get going. I'm a big fan of applying an open mind to different approaches and letting my experience speak for itself.

Ok, rant over....

on topic now, I unfortunately do believe there are such "unfortunates". I have sponsored men who just could not accept that they have a problem in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. none of them have stayed sober. I'm ignorant to the process of AVRT but I'm reasonably certain that all treatments require that the individual admit to the truth of their condition. its just common sense. and those that cant or wont don't recover. that's my take on the unfortunates.

I will also say that for me the capacity to be honest has been critical throughout, particularly in steps 4/5 where I got to get really intimate with my behavior and thought patterns and understand the causes and conditions that drove me. this opened the door to a pretty profound change in perspective and subsequent behavior. but I know people who have never done all the steps, or did them and haven't changed behaviors but stay sober so long as that initial honesty about their condition is in tact.
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Old 04-01-2012, 06:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Terminally Unique View Post
<snip simple program of don't ever drink>It works if you work it. Guaranteed.
I absolutely agree. Not drinking, if you can pull it off, will be 100% successful for not drinking. There is no need to look any further or even pick up a Big Book if 'not drinking' works for you. AA is not applicable to those who can successfully not drink.

It's a pretty big 'IF', though.

So what do we offer to those people that fail and continue to fail at the 'not drinking, ever' program? For me, AA was a solution that worked, after continually failing at not drinking by other means. I've been around long enough to see it work for many others. In fact, I've never seen anyone fail to get sober and stay sober who participates in the AA program the way that I participate in it; namely, take the 12 Steps and continuing applying them to my daily life. 100%, never seen it fail.
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Old 04-01-2012, 06:51 AM
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Just got done listening to Eckhart Tolles audiobooks, "A New Earth" + "The Power Of Now". He points out that some people have to get beaten to a pulp before they'll surrender to a spiritual path. I think there is some truth in that.
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Old 04-01-2012, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by BackToSquareOne View Post
Just got done listening to Eckhart Tolles audiobooks, "A New Earth" + "The Power Of Now". He points out that some people have to get beaten to a pulp before they'll surrender to a spiritual path. I think there is some truth in that.
It was true for me. I didn't even know what the path was...But it was better than the path I was on.
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Old 04-01-2012, 07:45 AM
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To my mind, the only honesty that is absolutely required in order for a person to quit drinking comes in the form of acknowledging that drinking is not an option, ever, under any circumstances.

I have never met a person who has conquered an addiction who has not been honest about this. Regardless of program or lack thereof.

What the AA big book says, though, is not that an individual needs to be honest about drinking: it speaks of "grasping and developing a manner of living"....i.e. the AA way of living. Which as we all know, is not about drinking: it is about having a spiritual awakening.

So in essence what is being said is that those who do not recover are those who can't accept AA. Certainly, that was how that passage was interpreted at the many AA meetings I attended during the first several years after I quit drinking, and it was why my speedy relapse and demise was predicted by AA members when I decided to leave. Because, to their way of thinking, the only way a person could possibly recover was through AA.

As to the resentment that is evident among us who have been exposed to AA and found it not to our liking....I can't speak for others, but for myself I can say that it is not AA itself, or its existence, or even its teachings, that are problematic for me. Frankly, there are all sorts of groups and belief systems in this world that I don't care for or agree with....but no one with authority over me has ever told me that I must join those groups. That was not the case with AA. My experience with that group was that when I presented for treatment at a hospital based treatment center, my counselor's sole credential was that he was an AA member and he told me that I must go to AA.

I've heard tons of folks argue that AA does not ask for this to happen: that it simply "cooperates" with the professional community. But I know this is not true, because again, during my days in AA I was a member of the "CPC" ("Cooperation with the Professional Community") group and we went around to professional offices handing out literature and generally promoting AA.

So my problem is not the existence of AA. Not in the least. It is with the fact that the group has so taken over the discourse about addiction recovery that those who don't find the program helpful are referred to as "those unfortunates", and told they are hopeless. And when people complain, they are called "resentful" and discredited.

The reality is that AA is a legitimate option. For SOME people. But if there is a table set with options for addiction recovery approaches, 12 step programs deserve ONE seat at that table, not all the seats.

When that changes, I will shut up. Until then....well, I'll continue to express my displeasure.
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Old 04-01-2012, 07:58 AM
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Wonderful post OTT...very well written and logically presented.

You've given voice to my thoughts on the subject and saved me the agony of having to try and do the same.

Well done!
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Old 04-01-2012, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by onlythetruth View Post
When that changes, I will shut up. Until then....well, I'll continue to express my displeasure.
So you left and relapsed...Sorry to hear that...Why don't you just talk about what works for you now...Maybe help someone else that's having a problem with AA...Seems more productive for everyone to me.
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Old 04-01-2012, 08:07 AM
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I did not relapse when I left, Sapling. I said it was predicted, but the prediction was entirely wrong.

I quit drinking in 1998 and have never relapsed.
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Old 04-01-2012, 08:15 AM
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There are people in and out of programs that want to stop, try to stop, but can't stop or can't stay stopped. People who have stopped and stay stopped theorize on why those who have not or cannot...do not.

Is it always a choice? And do people always have the tools and abilities to carry a choice to fruition once they make it?

People who have stopped and stay stopped HAVE been able to make the choice and carry it out. But do all people have that same ability to choose and then follow through?

Clearly a large number of people who want to stop, choose to stop, and stay stopped for awhile, then return to using.

And then those who have stayed stopped say "well, what they did wrong is not do what I have done...stay stopped"

That sounds to me like someone who is really successful in sports, finance etc, looking at those who tried and didn't make it to the big leagues or come out a billionaire saying that the problem is that those people didn't do what THEY did...they didn't succeed. Those people failed because they didn't succeed.

Is that always a choice?

Or are some unfortunate?

I don't know. I'm just thinking outloud.
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