Quse56

The very last thing in the world I wanted to be was an alcoholic. For me it was as easy as this:

If you tell a normal person they need to quit drinking for their health - they will! No questions asked. Tell an alcoholic he needs to quit drinking...

The very idea that I wanted it though it was injurious was proof enough for me that I was an alcoholic. but that didn't mean I surrendered! I tried to "fix" my alcoholism by moderate drinking... special occassions, etc. Alcohol subtley snuck back in to other areas of my life until one day I realized I was wasted at inappropriate times. I tried going to AA and still drinking a bit here and there. It was ok for a little bit, but sure enough, my life stayed bad until I gave up to the ENTIRE process - that means (for me) steps, sponsership, meetings, fellowship, the Big Book, etc.

I even tried Moderation Management for a little while.. until I found out that the lady who founded it is in prison for killing a child while driving drunk - see, thats the kind of misery that I dont have to be afraid of today. Even if I get pulled over at 4am, I wont end up in jail. Even if I cant remember something I told someone, it doesnt matter because I know what I told them was the truth. Its freedom today. And I wouldnt trade it for 3 beers.

I wanted NOTHING more than to be rid of AA... I have danced around it for 6 years. Believe me when I say that this was the LAST house on the block for me. I hated the black and white thinking, the complete abstinence, the having to ask strangers for help. The choice to go on to the bitter end drinking was a viable option in my mind - I said to myself "so what if I die a few years early, at least I won't be one of them." But at the end, after I had tried every possible way to moderate my drinking, I ended up back at the only place that has ever worked - IF I WORKED IT.

Oh, and if you're waiting for permission to drink - you don't need it. Go and drink if you want to. Hell, have one for me. The ONLY requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. Just be honest , and remember that if people are hard on you, it's because they have been there - EXACTLY there. You are not unique I promise you that. But then again I didn't want it until someone told me I couldnt have it. They stopped calling me and coddling me, becasue I wouldn't take suggestions. That slapped me into the reality that I must have this thing!

I am only back into this for 2 months, but I see the results first-hand. Don't quit 5 minutes before the miracle happens. And keep coming back.

Tazman53

Wow what a thread! This I found very intriguing posted by Joedris:

Bill W. had not been sober 5 years when he began to write the BB, does that mean that the writer of the basic text of AA was not sober when he started to write it?

I know some folks that have not had a drink in 20 years that are no where near as "sober" as some other folks I know with 2 years sober.

I would love to know where I can find in the BB, the 12 & 12 or any other AA literature how much time some one has to have with out a drink before they are considered sober?

Sobriety to this alcoholic is not a certain length of time since ones last drink, it is a level of peace and serenity one has. Just this alkies opinion.

By the way when the first printing of the BB came of the presses in 1939 there were over 100 "Recovered" alcoholics in the fellowship and only one of them had even 5 years since their last drink.

Okay, sorry for the vent!!!! LOL

Benjamin you did not lose those 38 days without a drink if you learned from them. They are a part of your sobriety that you can learn from, see what you did right and what you were not doing right.

Having 3 beers after 38 days to me would tell me that I have not got even step one down pat yet, because if I even have one drink today that would tell me that some where in my alcoholic brain I still feel I have some degree of power over booze. I know I don't, I know today that I never will have power over alcohol once I take that first drink. I know that if I have just one drink I can not say what will follow that one drink, it could be a 3 day bender, a 5 year run, death, jail, institution, or possibly starting over and never drinking again.

I do not know, and for today still having my sanity restored I am not willing to gamble on what would happen if I did have one drink. What I know today is that I love being sober way to much to have that one drink today.

Benjamin33

Great Post. Wonder where Joedris went. He certainly isn't too keen on answering follow up questions.

Emimily

why hasn't anyone mentioned the doctor's opinion yet? alcoholics have a physical allergy coupled with a spiritual malady, or so AA (and me) sees it. if you're into AA, and you're doing the deal, my assumption is that you agree.

you have an allergy. the only way to treat an allergy is total abstinence. i'm allergic to kiwis, i don't eat 'em. i'm allergic to alcohol, i don't drink it. now, kiwis cause me anaphylaxis. alcohol will kill me, but before it does that (more than likely, since i know i'm capable of alcohol poisoning), it will isolate me, cause me to harm myself and others, potentially kill myself or someone else, etc. etc.

so you have an allergy. coupled with a spiritual malady. and you want to see how it plays out. have fun, but remember this - people die, every day, every minute, from this disease. it's no joke. it's killed 3 of my friends so far, and it's working on a 4th as i type this. if you've got anything to live for (which you do), think think think the drink through, because before you know it... you take a drink, that drink takes a drink, and that drink takes you.

joedris

Oh, I'm still around. Let me start by answering a few of Benjamins statements. You asked three questions in your thread:
1. Am I in trouble?
2. Is this a true relapse?
3. Am I just deluding myself?
I replied that it wasn't a relapse since you really didn't have any length of sobriety to relapse from. This is my opinion. I also said that you'll have to start counting over again since your sobriety date started the day after the three beers, Again, this is my opinion.
And lastly, I asked it the three beers were worth it in that you would have to begin, in my opinion to start counting your days of sobriety anew. Am I clear so far?

I may be wrong here, but somehow I sense that you were offended by my responses. Lets get some things clear. The one year of sobriety I referred to was an example, not an AA tenet. If you had three beers after a years sobriety, then most people who attend the AA meetings I go to would consider this to be a relapse. But not 38 days.

The five year measure comes from the triannual report AA puts out based on the results of surveys mailed to select hopme groups. These surveys ask such questions as how many meetings you attend, how long has it been since your last drink, have you relapsed and if so, at what point in your sobriety did it occur and how long were you out, and so on. AA uses this information to measure the effectiveness of the program.
And since I know you're dieing to know the results, here are a few.
1. 95% of the people who attend their first AA meeting never return.
2. Of those that do return, only 30% make it.
3. If you've been sober for two years, you have a 60% chance of relapsing before you reach 5 years of sobriety.

Why 5 years? I wish I knew. It's not a figure I made up. I guess you have to have some standard, though, and 5 tears is as good as any. But to equate this to Bill Wilson and Dr Bob Smith being drunks when Bill wrote the Big Book is absurd. If you want to agrue or disagree, lets at least do it with some maturity.

I fully agree with the argument that time does not measure quality when we discuss sobrietry. I've posted many times that I've seen some great sobriety in someone with 45 days and lousy sobriety with someone with 20 years. To me, sobriety in measured in the present. I've been sober for 20 hours today. At midnight I begin again. I do it one day at a time.

And if you choose to take from AA what works for you and discard the rest, then go ahead. I have no problem with that. Believe it or not, I'm not an AA nazi. There are a lot of people who stopped drinking without AA. It doesn't work for everyone. But if you're going to work the AA program, do it all. If howling at the moon keeps you sober, howl away. The bottom line here is to stop drinking if it's a problem for you. How you do taht is your choice.

Juvenile remarks are best left to the Teen forum. If you want to discuss this as an adult, then I'd be happy to join you. I don't avoid follow up questions. I just don't bother with the types of remarks you've been posting.

Dee74

We agree then. Quality not quantity.

Yr figures seem to match the Harvard study I mentioned point for point except the subjects were Harvard grads not AAers.

The 5 year point was a statistical marker - unless you're really into statistics IMO it's so arbitrary as to be meaningless in real terms.

Thanks Joe.
D

Gypsy Feet

Lovely analogy!! I hope you don't mind if I use it from time to time.

Benjamin, you said you won't offer opinions (or maybe you said advice, something like that) on living sober, but even the "blind leading the blind" is helpful here on SR. I am sure that there are people who were thinking" I can have a couple of beers with lunch now and then" that have read this thread and benefited already.

I gained from your defense posts. I feel extremely grateful that my shoulder drunk is a bit more quiet these days. I remembered well as I read your post when I used to think like that quite often. Thank you for sharing your struggles.

sfgirl

Benjamin—

I don't know why this thread turned antagonistic so quickly. We have all been there. Or let me amend that, I certainly have been where you are now.

Probably around a similar amount of time, 38 days, into my sobriety (my sober date is September 26, 2008) I drank one night, much more than three beers. I, however, firmly viewed it as a relapse. I did not change my sober date. I don't do AA and I felt that I had been doing so much emotional and recovery work that while I had ingested alcohol, my journey was not starting over. I did jump right back onto the program after that evening though. I did not have to debate it in the head because I had tried controlled drinking for years already and I was certain it did not work for me. Certain.

However, let me tell you something that I have learned while quitting alcohol which would have saved me a lot of pain. There is an addictive voice. And it is powerful as hell because it sounds just like your normal voice. Early on in recovery, even later it is difficult to discern between it and your normal voice. But it will rationalize any way possible for you to be able to drink. So while I was controlling my drinking it was the voice that would change and bend the rules so that I thought it made sense if I drank more, that it was allowed and permissible, justifiable. During that time it was the same voice that would argue back with me telling me that I did not have to be abstinent. It was so strong that the conversation, the argument went on for years. What I have learned in recovery, because ever so often, even after quitting, when cravings and such come up, so does the little voice, telling me that I am perhaps not a "real alcoholic," that I am not as bad as these other people, I never hit the same bottom, etc....I have to shut off the voice. I don't argue back because it will win. No. I shut it off. I don't listen to it. I see it as part of the problem that I have to get through, past for recovery. And now 8 months in this voice rarely rears its ugly head.

Right now I see your voice, still strong, as mine was at 38 days, made a little stronger by a few beers, trying to talk you into losing sight of getting sober. You may end up trying controlled drinking to prove to yourself that you can't do it. I am just pretty sure I know the outcome of that experiment will be the same as mine was. I am 99% certain just by the very fact that you are here running your little addict voice already. And I want to save you the pain of years that I endured. Give recovery some more time. It gets better. Silence that voice, don't feed it more by arguing back. I know it is hard to believe that voice is an addict voice, it almost takes a little faith, but it will make life easier.

joedris

sfgirl is right. This is getting out of hand. We have a good subject going here, and we don't need to belittle one another. I apologize for my part in it, as I certainly helped to keep the antagonizing going. Ben, I sincerely wish you the best of luck in your recovery.
You've made some pretty astute comments here and it reflects someone who is willing to stop and think about getting sober. How you go about it is your decision; we're all a little bit different in that respect. You have my full support and if I can help in any way please don't hesitate to ask.

jade09

thank you all for all the insight. so true sfgirl, the voice!! i read about this about a year ago, made me see things alittle differently and helped me win many battles, but i still am searching for my complete arsenal to will the war. i find myself stealing, or borrowing, many of the things that have worked for you all. THANK YOU!!

sfields141

It all up to you buddy, It works if you work it. Talk is cheap, a sober life is a total change in lifestyle. You are the best judge of you. You need to learn more before you decide one way or other.