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Old 11-26-2009, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by basIam View Post

As far as the 75% success rate, if you read the second forward it says half of those who came to AA, AND REALLY TRIED, half recoverED immediately, of the remaining. many of them came back and, perhaps after some relapses, half of them recoverED. Thats 75%.


I've seen AA having a 20% success rate a few times but never 75%...Also how accurate are these success rates on an anonymous program anyways?

Anyways, to the OP, I've been to AA, have a sponsor, and read the book (among a few other recovery books) and recommend that you read the book and take what you can from it. Like the others said AA is always there and it is free, but $15 for the book I am sure is worth it if you spent all that money on alcohol and/or drugs before.
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Old 11-27-2009, 08:36 AM
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I mean I personally know 200 people who have recovered. people who I can call. people who I see every day or so. But, I believe you knew what I mean and only wanted to be sarcastic and dismissive.

I ask again, "What ACTIONS does this book suggest?"

I also said, "If you think it will work BY ALL MEANS TRY IT!!!!"

But, any suggestion to try it would be remiss with out a warning, BEWARE OF PROGRAMS THAT RELY ON SELF KNOWLEDGE!!! There is a certain class of problem drinkers for which SELF KNOWLEDGE IS OF ABSOLUTELY NO AVAIL!!! Behind them is a "world of ignorance and misunderstanding." Only you can come to the determination whether you are in this class.

While AA does tell us we should be tolerant, it also tells us to give freely of what we find. It also tells us to tell the newcomer that if he thinks he can recover without spiritual help, to tell them we hope they can, but we doubt they will. That is, if they are anything like us.

AA is a program of drastic action. A key part of that action is intensive work with other alcoholics - sharing your story, hearing 5th steps, taking people for medical help, visiting hospitals and other institutions. In MY EXPERIENCE, I find that alot of aa'ers forget that part. they do thorough 4th/5th/9th steps. Life gets good and they go back to their newly rebuilt lives and thrive for a while. But then at some point, the "peculiar mental twist" pops up again. And they think, because they have been sober for a good while, they can drink normally. And despite all that deep self searching and inner knowledge they gained, they drink/drug again.

This inability to recall is, IN MY OPINION (and I BELIEVE aa's), the most deadly aspect of alcoholism. Does "The Cure" address this?

There are many ways to recover, all of them are spiritual (this simply means NON-MATERIAL, btw) They all require taking an honest look at one's self, cleaning up your mess and service to others. AA's 12 steps are just a simple guide for doing this. Does "The Cure" suggest these actions in one form or another?

What ever program you choose, there is alot of work required.
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Old 11-27-2009, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by basIam View Post
I mean I personally know 200 people who have recovered. people who I can call. people who I see every day or so. But, I believe you knew what I mean and only wanted to be sarcastic and dismissive.

I ask again, "What ACTIONS does this book suggest?"

I also said, "If you think it will work BY ALL MEANS TRY IT!!!!"

But, any suggestion to try it would be remiss with out a warning, BEWARE OF PROGRAMS THAT RELY ON SELF KNOWLEDGE!!! There is a certain class of problem drinkers for which SELF KNOWLEDGE IS OF ABSOLUTELY NO AVAIL!!! Behind them is a "world of ignorance and misunderstanding." Only you can come to the determination whether you are in this class.

While AA does tell us we should be tolerant, it also tells us to give freely of what we find. It also tells us to tell the newcomer that if he thinks he can recover without spiritual help, to tell them we hope they can, but we doubt they will. That is, if they are anything like us.

AA is a program of drastic action. A key part of that action is intensive work with other alcoholics - sharing your story, hearing 5th steps, taking people for medical help, visiting hospitals and other institutions. In MY EXPERIENCE, I find that alot of aa'ers forget that part. they do thorough 4th/5th/9th steps. Life gets good and they go back to their newly rebuilt lives and thrive for a while. But then at some point, the "peculiar mental twist" pops up again. And they think, because they have been sober for a good while, they can drink normally. And despite all that deep self searching and inner knowledge they gained, they drink/drug again.

This inability to recall is, IN MY OPINION (and I BELIEVE aa's), the most deadly aspect of alcoholism. Does "The Cure" address this?

There are many ways to recover, all of them are spiritual (this simply means NON-MATERIAL, btw) They all require taking an honest look at one's self, cleaning up your mess and service to others. AA's 12 steps are just a simple guide for doing this. Does "The Cure" suggest these actions in one form or another?

What ever program you choose, there is alot of work required.
I still fail to understand the logic behind criticising a book/program that you haven't taken the time to learn about. At least when I decided AA wasn't the program for me, it was after reading, learning, attending meetings, working the steps, having a sponsor, .. I know you're asking some questions about what the "cure" book proposes as a program of treatment, I would recommend you read it, and then you might have an informed perspective on which to base your judgement.

I think also what you might fail to understand (correct me if I'm wrong) is that people are talking about this book as being a supplement to the recovery program they are working. Like anything, it only 'works' if someone puts the effort into making it work, just like you said. In a nutshell the book recommends addressing alcohol/drug dependency on a holistic level. Nutritionally, spiritually, psychologically, and medically. Some ideas about how to address these different areas that play a critical role in our wellbeing, are laid out in the book. This is where talking about diet, getting into treatment/counseling, seeing a doctor, working on spiritual growth come into play. Chris also offers his perspective about seeing addiction or dependency as a several faceted result of a variety of reasons. He lays this out in his 'causes' section as referenced above. So.. nuts and bolts, it's a theory about why people get 'addicted', and some ideas on how to address it, in a holistic/multidimensional way.

I tried to be short winded, but I couldn't. This isn't a program in a box.. it's just a book, that helps folks understand a holistic (boyd mind spirit) treatment perspective for addiction. My personal opinion is that it would be foolish to look at treatment for such a complex issue, unidimentionally.

How that, or the original post, or peoples opinions on Prentiss' book relates in any way to spouting off about AA and shoving it down anyones throats is beyond me.. but that stuff happens often enough around here for me not to become compeltely surprised
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Old 11-27-2009, 09:08 AM
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I read the book. I saw many similarities to the 12 step program. Main differences seem to be less emphasis on the powerlessness/surrender thing..... there seems to be some spirituality in there, but I think approaches it in a slightly less threatening way to those who have issues there....

Anything to get a person recovering is a good thing.

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Old 11-27-2009, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by smacked View Post
I still fail to understand the logic behind criticising a book/program that you haven't taken the time to learn about.
I don't know what posts of mine you are reading, I never criticized anything. I asked questions.

Originally Posted by smacked View Post
I would recommend you read it, and then you might have an informed perspective on which to base your judgement.
I have no judgement about it.

Originally Posted by smacked View Post
How that, or the original post, or peoples opinions on Prentiss' book relates in any way to spouting off about AA and shoving it down anyones throats is beyond me.. but that stuff happens often enough around here for me not to become compeltely surprised
I don't believe I am shoving AA down anyone's throat. I am noting some truths about alcoholism, that just happen to be addressed in the Big Book.

As a matter of fact, I don't believe I am being argumentative about anything.

I am stressing caution, though. Alcoholism is a DEADLY condition!!!

As a matter of fact, I am off to a funeral of someone who wasn't willing.
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Old 11-27-2009, 09:15 AM
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I am noting some truths about alcoholism, that just happen to be addressed in the Big Book.
We all have 'truths' we believe in, that does not make them universal.

I am stressing caution, though. Alcoholism is a DEADLY condition!!!
I completely agree. Many of us have found ways to stop killing ourselves, and recover. All we can hope for is that more people find a way that works for them.
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Old 11-27-2009, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by smacked View Post
We all have 'truths' we believe in, that does not make them universal.
Here's a universal truth. . . alcoholics have an amazing ability to forget how bad it gets.

disagree?
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Old 11-27-2009, 09:32 AM
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First of all let me state that AA saved my life.

Second I am just as aware as Bill W., Dr. Bob, and several other AA folks who have posted in this thread that AA does not have a lock on recovery, nor does it claim to have one.

AA is just chock full of people though who are of the opinion that AA is the only way for an alcoholic to recover, it is the way that millions have revovered, but it is not the only way.

Bill W. went to his grave still seeking other solutions knowing full well that what works for many (AA) does not work for all.

I am all for what ever works for some one. In the book Alcoholics Anonymous, there is not a single mention of AA being the only way for alcohics to recover, nor does it say to exclude ANY other recovery methods or writings, instead the book actually encourages people in AA to read other recovery literature and use what helps.

Here is one quote straight out of the BB:

We cannot be helpful to all
people,
but at least God will show us how to take a
kindly and tolerant view of each and every one.
Here is another very applicable quote from the BB that some folks in AA fail to apply when other recovery methods are brought out:

Love and tolerance of others is our code.
There is more, this thread is not about AA, it is about another recovery program that does work for other people, if it works for some it is a good thing and should not be poopooed.

You know I have read some of the literature and to be honest there is only one thing that gives me personal heart burn and that is the use of the word "CURE".

To cure an alcoholic would mean that they could drink like normal people again, and even in his book he says it is not a cure. To me using the word cure in the title is offering false hope to an alcoholic who is still drinking.

I will not lie, if I had seen this book when I was still drinking and could not stop, I would have dropped the money on it thinking "Man my dream has come true, there is a cure and I will be able to drink like normal people again." I would have been really POed once I started reading it and saw where it says that it is not a cure, but it is a method of recovery.
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Old 11-27-2009, 09:52 AM
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I think the word cure has to be taken with a grain of salt. Prentiss is a bit self satisfied about his program sometimes, when I was listening to the book and he was talking about his problem with Step 1, I thought he seemed a bit smug.

Anyway, his book helped me look into myself to try to find out some of my drinking triggers. But, like anything else, it's harder to do it on your own. If you'd rather work it out in therapy instead of AA, then it's another option.
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Old 11-27-2009, 10:19 AM
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Right Taz.... I believe that this program is not a moderation management program... but complete abstinence and sobriety... so, hey, if it works, great!

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Old 11-27-2009, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by basIam View Post
Here's a universal truth. . . alcoholics have an amazing ability to forget how bad it gets.

disagree?
We're splitting hairs, which is pointless. I feel this is a generalization. I can only speak for myself, and yes.. while I was still drinking I would often ignore how bad things were, or could be.. and kept drinking. Luckily I got the help I needed, that's all I wish for anyone.
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Old 11-27-2009, 11:14 AM
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The same can be said for childbirth on that universal truth.

The book definitely doesn't read as a way back into moderate drinking, someone who is trying to get off heroin would never think that it was a way back to only doing it once in awhile, I think that it's more of a tendancy with alcohol that normal is being able to drink a little, instead of just being able to live life without it.
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Old 11-27-2009, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Tazman53 View Post
First of all let me state that AA saved my life.

Second I am just as aware as Bill W., Dr. Bob, and several other AA folks who have posted in this thread that AA does not have a lock on recovery, nor does it claim to have one.

AA is just chock full of people though who are of the opinion that AA is the only way for an alcoholic to recover, it is the way that millions have revovered, but it is not the only way.

Bill W. went to his grave still seeking other solutions knowing full well that what works for many (AA) does not work for all.

I am all for what ever works for some one. In the book Alcoholics Anonymous, there is not a single mention of AA being the only way for alcohics to recover, nor does it say to exclude ANY other recovery methods or writings, instead the book actually encourages people in AA to read other recovery literature and use what helps.

Here is one quote straight out of the BB:



Here is another very applicable quote from the BB that some folks in AA fail to apply when other recovery methods are brought out:



There is more, this thread is not about AA, it is about another recovery program that does work for other people, if it works for some it is a good thing and should not be poopooed.

You know I have read some of the literature and to be honest there is only one thing that gives me personal heart burn and that is the use of the word "CURE".

To cure an alcoholic would mean that they could drink like normal people again, and even in his book he says it is not a cure. To me using the word cure in the title is offering false hope to an alcoholic who is still drinking.

I will not lie, if I had seen this book when I was still drinking and could not stop, I would have dropped the money on it thinking "Man my dream has come true, there is a cure and I will be able to drink like normal people again." I would have been really POed once I started reading it and saw where it says that it is not a cure, but it is a method of recovery.
Totally agree.. it's about the worst choice for a title he could have picked, since the entire first part of the book is spent explaining how he does not use terms like alcoholic/alcoholism, addiction/addict etc.. and cure, as he expresses it is almost tongue in cheek. The entire title actually pokes fun at other, more traditional concepts of recovery, which is not as clear as what he actually presents.. a holistic approach to drug and alcohol (and other) dependencies. Course that wouldn't have made him as much money as the title he went with. I have yet to meet a program/theory/treatment perspcetive without any flaws. Thank goodness there's so much out there!
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Old 11-27-2009, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by scoob View Post
The same can be said for childbirth on that universal truth.

The book definitely doesn't read as a way back into moderate drinking, someone who is trying to get off heroin would never think that it was a way back to only doing it once in awhile, I think that it's more of a tendancy with alcohol that normal is being able to drink a little, instead of just being able to live life without it.
When I first read it, (and other recovery books), I actively (and admittedly) searched for something in there that WOULD tell me I could drink/use again. This book talks a lot about freeing someone from a life of dependency on different things, but never ever comes close to suggesting that anyone go back to what they were dependent on again. Lifelong abstinence from the 'substance' is absolutely stated as required for long term success.
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Old 11-27-2009, 02:30 PM
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About the "Powerless" angle of AA -

I believe ( notice the word "I"? I am talking about my own personal beliefs and do not contend that every one has to agree with me. . christ, why do I feel like I have to express that??? ) that AA promotes the admission of powerlessness, because of the fact that alcoholics are incapable - at certain times (not necessarily all the time), of remembering how bad it gets. Following the 'only as strong as the weakest link' argument, if an alcoholic can fool himself into taking that first drink, he is in effect powerless.

Granted, there are many times in my life that I WAS able to say, "No, a drink is not good for me" and not drink. But there were times that I didn't even consider the consequences. My problem is I will point at all the times I acted rationally (by not drinking) and convince myself "See, you had power then!" totally ignoring the times I didn't act rationally. So, at certain times I was powerless to resist the first drink.

On the other hand, Powerlessness in AA is not considered a permanent state. To the contrary, AA guarantees you can find power through the 12 steps.

Regarding the word "Cure" . . the word is used in the Big Book describing the 12 steps as a "Cure for alcoholism" - granted its in one of the stories (I think its AA Number 3??? but I could be wrong, i've been wrong before -the lord - and my girlfriend as well - know. )

Still, we in AA are careful at describing what the problem is. If an person is allergic to peanuts, you wouldn't say he was sick and needed a cure. Now, if a person is allergic to peanuts but believes he can eat a PB&J sandwich, THEN you would say he was sick. But the illness isn't the allergy, its the insane idea that he can eat a PB&J.

So when it comes to drugs and alcohol, the fact that I lose control when I begin is not my problem. Far from it. The problem is, given the fact that I lose control, I will try it again. Thats my sickness. AA cured me of that insanity.

So now I will ask the question again ( what 5x now???), does the book "The Cure" address the "peculiar mental twist" that precedes the first drink?
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Old 11-27-2009, 02:43 PM
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If you're this interested in the book, what do you have to lose by reading it? If you want to have a book discussion, it would help.

Yes, finding out the "why" of your drinking, includes the first drink.
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Old 11-27-2009, 02:46 PM
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I agree with the majority of posters here.

The first and most fundamental step in book review is...reading the book.

Lets keep on topic, thanks

D
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Old 11-27-2009, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by scoob View Post
If you're this interested in the book, what do you have to lose by reading it? If you want to have a book discussion, it would help.
Because I don't want to spend $15 on it.

Originally Posted by scoob View Post
Yes, finding out the "why" of your drinking, includes the first drink.
Could you please elaborate? Maybe then I would be willing to spend money on it.

Still, I get awful wary of people selling' cures' for alcoholism. And the last thing I would want to do is put money in their pocket. This is not meant as an attack on the book or the author or his process, just expressing a personal concern.
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Old 11-27-2009, 03:03 PM
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Are you even looking for a new path to quit drinking? If AA has already proven to work for you, then you're doing just fine. I go to AA twice a week, I listen to the book on my ipod on the bus.

I've already mentioned that the book leans toward going to therapy in order to get down to the roots of what drove you to drink to excess.

In my view it gives people who aren't into AA for whatever reason, a way to put different names and definitions to the same path, fix your **** and quit drinking.

That'll be $15 please.
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Old 11-27-2009, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by scoob View Post
I've already mentioned that the book leans toward going to therapy in order to get down to the roots of what drove you to drink to excess.
Yeah thats what I thought.
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