Worth and Behavior
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Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 625
Originally Posted by soberlicious 
<bunch of good stuff cut to get to the responding part>
I can successfully separate the person from their behavior in theory, but when my partner was choking me in a drunken rage, even though it wasn't his true self that was choking me, my windpipe was getting crushed all the same. The active addict and the true man unfortunately occupy the same body, and therefore use the same set of hands. When your air supply is cut, it's moot as to "who" is actually acting. You know what I mean?
I can successfully separate the person from their behavior in theory, but when my partner was choking me in a drunken rage, even though it wasn't his true self that was choking me, my windpipe was getting crushed all the same. The active addict and the true man unfortunately occupy the same body, and therefore use the same set of hands. When your air supply is cut, it's moot as to "who" is actually acting. You know what I mean?
If I felt that physical danger was a possibility with Michelle, I would take whatever precautions necessary as well but we both know that in the unlikely event that my physical self was in danger with her...you and I know it isn't going to shorten my life by much anyway.
<ducks>Love you too
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Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: German Village, Columbus with my love ♥
Posts: 88,509
My worth is not separate from my behaviour.
If my behaviour and actions make me ashamed, I am not worthy and deserving of life's blessings.
Am I worthy just because I am a human being? Because I am alive? Sorry, that's not the way I see it. My past actions are just that; and I can forgive myself for the mistakes I have made.
But now that I am in recovery I am responsible.
I get to choose my own behaviour now. As Soberlicious said, if I lie to you am I still worthy? I don't think so.
But that's just the way I feel....
So glad your wife is doing so well Legna! I have been thinking about you both, and hoping and praying...
Love Venus xx
If my behaviour and actions make me ashamed, I am not worthy and deserving of life's blessings.
Am I worthy just because I am a human being? Because I am alive? Sorry, that's not the way I see it. My past actions are just that; and I can forgive myself for the mistakes I have made.
But now that I am in recovery I am responsible.
I get to choose my own behaviour now. As Soberlicious said, if I lie to you am I still worthy? I don't think so.
But that's just the way I feel....
So glad your wife is doing so well Legna! I have been thinking about you both, and hoping and praying...
Love Venus xx
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: The Jungle
Posts: 5,435
Is the rattlesnake in the story not worthy of trust? You may not be able to trust its words but, and the moral of the story is that, you can trust its nature. So, we can trust the nature of the active addict to behave accordingly and lying is part of the nature of addiction. BUT...I only get bit if I bury my head in the sand and choose to believe that the prefrontal cortex is speaking when in fact it is the lizard brain.
If I realize that the active addict is going to act according to his or her nature, and separate the two of them, then I can nurture, love and honor the person without taking it personally when it strikes at me...and, knowing that this is likely, I can take precautions, i.e. set internal and external boundaries by cultivating awareness, to prevent an attempt to strike from hitting its target.
If I realize that the active addict is going to act according to his or her nature, and separate the two of them, then I can nurture, love and honor the person without taking it personally when it strikes at me...and, knowing that this is likely, I can take precautions, i.e. set internal and external boundaries by cultivating awareness, to prevent an attempt to strike from hitting its target.
No. The snake is not worthy of trust. Because trust has absolutely nothing to do with it. Are there people who can handle a rattlesnake? Sure. Is the average person qualified to handle said snake? Absolutely not and they'd be foolish to try. Even seasoned handlers fully understand that they can be bitten and would discourage others from randomly picking up a rattlesnake.
The snake parable illustrates the theory that most people simply don't have the skill to navigate life with an active addict. It is threatening to their own well being.
I love snakes. Always have....since childhood. I've caught many to admire and let them go. I've owned a fair number. They are worthy of my love. But just because something is worthy of my love and admiration for its inherent beauty.......doesn't mean that I have to live with it and handle it to prove I love it.
As this relates to an active addict.......they are all worthy of my love.....as human beings, I can see their light, beauty and complexity that is worthy of my love. But I understand the nature of active addiction and I'm not qualified to handle it without being bitten. I understand my limitations.
I do not judge the seasoned snake handler (nor the person who stays in a relationship with an active addict.) I do not judge someone who wants to try to become a seasoned snake handler. I also understand why some people are frightened of snakes--they can be very dangerous. For some, it's not easy to recognize the difference between a garter snake or a viper.
It sounds throughout this post as though you are perhaps judging those who feel that it is in their own best interest to love the addict from afar. Or trying to convince them that it is sending a message of judgement if they can't stay in a relationship with an addict. It sounds as though you may be sending a message that all snakes (addicts) are docile and non-poisonous.....that is the danger in your message.
The sad part about addiction/codependence is there are people who love the "snake" with everything they've got.....but they have no idea what kind of snake it is. They're in denial. They keep telling themselves that they have a pretty little garter snake when in truth it's a viper. They keep getting bitten over and over and over again and they cry about it and remain in abject misery over it.....never realizing that it may be in their best interest (and the best interest of the snake) to LET IT GO.
Some people shouldn't or can't or don't want to handle rattlesnakes (addicts).....that is their choice. It doesnt mean the snake is not beautiful or is unworthy of love. And it doesn't mean that those who make the choice to love/admire the snake from afar for their own safety (sanity) are "less than".
gentle hugs
ke
PS - for what it's worth....I think this has been a very thought provoking topic...interesting thread.
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Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 505
Originally Posted by Kindeyes
I love the parable of the rattlesnake.
No. The snake is not worthy of trust. Because trust has absolutely nothing to do with it. Are there people who can handle a rattlesnake? Sure. Is the average person qualified to handle said snake? Absolutely not and they'd be foolish to try. Even seasoned handlers fully understand that they can be bitten and would discourage others from randomly picking up a rattlesnake.
The snake parable illustrates the theory that most people simply don't have the skill to navigate life with an active addict. It is threatening to their own well being.
I love snakes. Always have....since childhood. I've caught many to admire and let them go. I've owned a fair number. They are worthy of my love. But just because something is worthy of my love and admiration for its inherent beauty.......doesn't mean that I have to live with it and handle it to prove I love it.
As this relates to an active addict.......they are all worthy of my love.....as human beings, I can see their light, beauty and complexity that is worthy of my love. But I understand the nature of active addiction and I'm not qualified to handle it without being bitten. I understand my limitations.
I do not judge the seasoned snake handler (nor the person who stays in a relationship with an active addict.) I do not judge someone who wants to try to become a seasoned snake handler. I also understand why some people are frightened of snakes--they can be very dangerous. For some, it's not easy to recognize the difference between a garter snake or a viper.
It sounds throughout this post as though you are perhaps judging those who feel that it is in their own best interest to love the addict from afar. Or trying to convince them that it is sending a message of judgement if they can't stay in a relationship with an addict. It sounds as though you may be sending a message that all snakes (addicts) are docile and non-poisonous.....that is the danger in your message.
The sad part about addiction/codependence is there are people who love the "snake" with everything they've got.....but they have no idea what kind of snake it is. They're in denial. They keep telling themselves that they have a pretty little garter snake when in truth it's a viper. They keep getting bitten over and over and over again and they cry about it and remain in abject misery over it.....never realizing that it may be in their best interest (and the best interest of the snake) to LET IT GO.
Some people shouldn't or can't or don't want to handle rattlesnakes (addicts).....that is their choice. It doesnt mean the snake is not beautiful or is unworthy of love. And it doesn't mean that those who make the choice to love/admire the snake from afar for their own safety (sanity) are "less than".
gentle hugs
ke
PS - for what it's worth....I think this has been a very thought provoking topic...interesting thread.
No. The snake is not worthy of trust. Because trust has absolutely nothing to do with it. Are there people who can handle a rattlesnake? Sure. Is the average person qualified to handle said snake? Absolutely not and they'd be foolish to try. Even seasoned handlers fully understand that they can be bitten and would discourage others from randomly picking up a rattlesnake.
The snake parable illustrates the theory that most people simply don't have the skill to navigate life with an active addict. It is threatening to their own well being.
I love snakes. Always have....since childhood. I've caught many to admire and let them go. I've owned a fair number. They are worthy of my love. But just because something is worthy of my love and admiration for its inherent beauty.......doesn't mean that I have to live with it and handle it to prove I love it.
As this relates to an active addict.......they are all worthy of my love.....as human beings, I can see their light, beauty and complexity that is worthy of my love. But I understand the nature of active addiction and I'm not qualified to handle it without being bitten. I understand my limitations.
I do not judge the seasoned snake handler (nor the person who stays in a relationship with an active addict.) I do not judge someone who wants to try to become a seasoned snake handler. I also understand why some people are frightened of snakes--they can be very dangerous. For some, it's not easy to recognize the difference between a garter snake or a viper.
It sounds throughout this post as though you are perhaps judging those who feel that it is in their own best interest to love the addict from afar. Or trying to convince them that it is sending a message of judgement if they can't stay in a relationship with an addict. It sounds as though you may be sending a message that all snakes (addicts) are docile and non-poisonous.....that is the danger in your message.
The sad part about addiction/codependence is there are people who love the "snake" with everything they've got.....but they have no idea what kind of snake it is. They're in denial. They keep telling themselves that they have a pretty little garter snake when in truth it's a viper. They keep getting bitten over and over and over again and they cry about it and remain in abject misery over it.....never realizing that it may be in their best interest (and the best interest of the snake) to LET IT GO.
Some people shouldn't or can't or don't want to handle rattlesnakes (addicts).....that is their choice. It doesnt mean the snake is not beautiful or is unworthy of love. And it doesn't mean that those who make the choice to love/admire the snake from afar for their own safety (sanity) are "less than".
gentle hugs
ke
PS - for what it's worth....I think this has been a very thought provoking topic...interesting thread.
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: "I'm not lost for I know where I am. But however, where I am may be lost ..."
Posts: 5,273
Originally Posted by legna
<ducks>Beautiful post kindeyes. I agree with everything, with one exception. I do not perceive the judgement from legna that some feel. Not at all...
I often have to "separate" in the case of my son with autism. My son/the behaviors that go with the disorder, are not one and the same....yet at the same time, they are. When he becomes frustrated and hits or bites me or himself, I do not judge him, nor do I love him less, but I do restrain him and I do protect him and myself.
I think it's easy to all agree that I would not walk away from him or leave him because he hurts me sometimes. Why? because he can't really help it...
Ahhhh therein lies the rub. I think that often a person's core belief about whether or not an addict "can help it" makes the difference here. Absolutely, I should expect an addict to behave like an addict, but should I expect my loved one to be an addict in the first place? Or should I expect that they take responsibility and recover, as I believe everyone is capable of doing?
Originally Posted by legna
Love you too
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Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 398
Originally Posted by Kindeyes
I love the parable of the rattlesnake.
No. The snake is not worthy of trust. Because trust has absolutely nothing to do with it. Are there people who can handle a rattlesnake? Sure. Is the average person qualified to handle said snake? Absolutely not and they'd be foolish to try. Even seasoned handlers fully understand that they can be bitten and would discourage others from randomly picking up a rattlesnake.
The snake parable illustrates the theory that most people simply don't have the skill to navigate life with an active addict. It is threatening to their own well being.
I love snakes. Always have....since childhood. I've caught many to admire and let them go. I've owned a fair number. They are worthy of my love. But just because something is worthy of my love and admiration for its inherent beauty.......doesn't mean that I have to live with it and handle it to prove I love it.
As this relates to an active addict.......they are all worthy of my love.....as human beings, I can see their light, beauty and complexity that is worthy of my love. But I understand the nature of active addiction and I'm not qualified to handle it without being bitten. I understand my limitations.
I do not judge the seasoned snake handler (nor the person who stays in a relationship with an active addict.) I do not judge someone who wants to try to become a seasoned snake handler. I also understand why some people are frightened of snakes--they can be very dangerous. For some, it's not easy to recognize the difference between a garter snake or a viper.
It sounds throughout this post as though you are perhaps judging those who feel that it is in their own best interest to love the addict from afar. Or trying to convince them that it is sending a message of judgement if they can't stay in a relationship with an addict. It sounds as though you may be sending a message that all snakes (addicts) are docile and non-poisonous.....that is the danger in your message.
The sad part about addiction/codependence is there are people who love the "snake" with everything they've got.....but they have no idea what kind of snake it is. They're in denial. They keep telling themselves that they have a pretty little garter snake when in truth it's a viper. They keep getting bitten over and over and over again and they cry about it and remain in abject misery over it.....never realizing that it may be in their best interest (and the best interest of the snake) to LET IT GO.
Some people shouldn't or can't or don't want to handle rattlesnakes (addicts).....that is their choice. It doesnt mean the snake is not beautiful or is unworthy of love. And it doesn't mean that those who make the choice to love/admire the snake from afar for their own safety (sanity) are "less than". gentle hugs
ke
PS - for what it's worth....I think this has been a very thought provoking topic...interesting thread.
No. The snake is not worthy of trust. Because trust has absolutely nothing to do with it. Are there people who can handle a rattlesnake? Sure. Is the average person qualified to handle said snake? Absolutely not and they'd be foolish to try. Even seasoned handlers fully understand that they can be bitten and would discourage others from randomly picking up a rattlesnake.
The snake parable illustrates the theory that most people simply don't have the skill to navigate life with an active addict. It is threatening to their own well being.
I love snakes. Always have....since childhood. I've caught many to admire and let them go. I've owned a fair number. They are worthy of my love. But just because something is worthy of my love and admiration for its inherent beauty.......doesn't mean that I have to live with it and handle it to prove I love it.
As this relates to an active addict.......they are all worthy of my love.....as human beings, I can see their light, beauty and complexity that is worthy of my love. But I understand the nature of active addiction and I'm not qualified to handle it without being bitten. I understand my limitations.
I do not judge the seasoned snake handler (nor the person who stays in a relationship with an active addict.) I do not judge someone who wants to try to become a seasoned snake handler. I also understand why some people are frightened of snakes--they can be very dangerous. For some, it's not easy to recognize the difference between a garter snake or a viper.
It sounds throughout this post as though you are perhaps judging those who feel that it is in their own best interest to love the addict from afar. Or trying to convince them that it is sending a message of judgement if they can't stay in a relationship with an addict. It sounds as though you may be sending a message that all snakes (addicts) are docile and non-poisonous.....that is the danger in your message.
The sad part about addiction/codependence is there are people who love the "snake" with everything they've got.....but they have no idea what kind of snake it is. They're in denial. They keep telling themselves that they have a pretty little garter snake when in truth it's a viper. They keep getting bitten over and over and over again and they cry about it and remain in abject misery over it.....never realizing that it may be in their best interest (and the best interest of the snake) to LET IT GO.
Some people shouldn't or can't or don't want to handle rattlesnakes (addicts).....that is their choice. It doesnt mean the snake is not beautiful or is unworthy of love. And it doesn't mean that those who make the choice to love/admire the snake from afar for their own safety (sanity) are "less than". gentle hugs
ke
PS - for what it's worth....I think this has been a very thought provoking topic...interesting thread.
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Join Date: Mar 2024
Posts: 1
"I have the free will to choose my behavior, and be responsible for the actions I choose to do today
Originally Posted by legna
Hello peoples. First a quick update, my wife completed her 28 day inpatient treatment and is home and doing well and has forty-seven days clean today. During her inpatient, she had to say a few words before she spoke in group or counseling, etc., - sort of an affirmation. It began, "I am a woman worthy of love, honor, trust, dignity and respect." To which the group would reply, "Yes, you are." The affirmation continued, "My worth is separate from my behavior." to which the group would reply, "Yes, it is." and then continue with one more that I forget at the moment.
What I would like to focus on is the last part I mentioned: "My worth is separate from my behavior."
Both here and in Nar-anon, I see two basic groups of folks. There are those who are still at the stage of trying to control the addicts behavior and then there are those who are concentrating on their own behavior (and thoughts and feelings, etc). Those in the second group tend to say things such as, "It's only their actions that count." or "Why would you want to be with an addict in the first place?" or...or...
While I would like to concentrate on my behavior, thoughts, feelings, etc and make them more healthy moving forward, I am curious what others feel about this particular affirmation? Those with children who are addicts of course tend to see the value in their child much more than those who have a boyfriend or girlfriend, husband or wife who is an addict...but it brings me to my question, do we have a tendency to devalue the worth of the person who is an addict? Do you agree that the addicts worth is separate from their behavior?
Thanks. And if you're waiting to see what others have to say before responding - please don't. I'm on so many ignore lists in friends and family that if you can read this you are part of an ever shrinking group!
What I would like to focus on is the last part I mentioned: "My worth is separate from my behavior."
Both here and in Nar-anon, I see two basic groups of folks. There are those who are still at the stage of trying to control the addicts behavior and then there are those who are concentrating on their own behavior (and thoughts and feelings, etc). Those in the second group tend to say things such as, "It's only their actions that count." or "Why would you want to be with an addict in the first place?" or...or...
While I would like to concentrate on my behavior, thoughts, feelings, etc and make them more healthy moving forward, I am curious what others feel about this particular affirmation? Those with children who are addicts of course tend to see the value in their child much more than those who have a boyfriend or girlfriend, husband or wife who is an addict...but it brings me to my question, do we have a tendency to devalue the worth of the person who is an addict? Do you agree that the addicts worth is separate from their behavior?
Thanks. And if you're waiting to see what others have to say before responding - please don't. I'm on so many ignore lists in friends and family that if you can read this you are part of an ever shrinking group!
"I have the free will to choose my behavior, and take responsibility for the actions I choose to do today."
P.S. Peace, Love, & Harmony
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