cessy68

Loud and clear...... anyone got gauze and ointment prepared? I'm going to need it.... and the end is comming soon. sigh. another sigh.

cessy68

Just so you know Blue jay--- ruffeling a feather or two, is ok, and USUALLY indicitive of something.............. even I admitt when I get my feathers ruffled, it's usually for a reason. Sometimes, (not often) people are way off base and I get upset, but typically, there is some truth inside the statement that makes us unsettled.

ANyhoo, back to my 'you should know statement'. A friend of mine is 22yrs clean and sober, and is a active member and sponsor in AA, he is also a recovered addict, and is a psychotherapist. He specializes in addiction recovery. He tells me that he tells his clients, " I don't believe you".... and this really gets his clients angry. He tells me that his point is, with addicts, many, many, many talk the talk, and don't walk the walk. They will lie to themselves, in meetings, to therapists, to loved ones. He says when they start to recover, (REALLY recover) they understand and appreciate the fact that he USED to tell them that he didn't believe them. I guess when You have 20 yrs invested as a person who specializes in addiction recovery, you know that this is valid, real, and understandable... that we don't believe.

and it truely means that when people are comming to terms with what they have done, the lies they told, etc, they understand OUR feelings too..... it truely isn't all about them.
Love,
cess

bluejay6

Wow, Cess, thank you for that last reply. Really, this issue of trusting addicts in the program has been one I have been working through ever since the double winner lied, betrayed, and emotionally abused me.....It really set me back.

I remember, before I was hurt by him, someone in Al-Anon, a friend who had been a member of Al-Anon for a couple of decades, said he would NEVER date an addict, recovering or otherwise. And I remember becoming a little defensive of recovering addicts, felt they should be loved as much as anyone else, felt it was unfair to hold their past against them. If they were in recovery, I thought they were likely even MORE honest than the average person and MORE committed to emotional health and stable relationship.

But after I was hurt and stunned....I was so disillusioned.

And I wondered if maybe I was becoming like that Al-Anon friend. I didn't want to be like him. I wanted to believe in the program and in fact I had believed that a good partner for me WOULD be a recovering addict, for we would talk the same language and would work especially hard to live a 12 step life.

But I am afraid, still. And I don't know yet where I will land on this issue.

My therapist said, "If you built a house on the beach in Florida and a hurricane came along and destroyed it, you might rebuild it once. But if after you rebuilt the house, another hurricane came along and destroyed it.....how willing would you be to live on a beach in Florida?" He said that is how that man in Al-Anon felt when he said "Never again."

So....I just have more to work through. It's good to get this out on the forum, though.

Angelic17

Sorry Cessy, I posted the same post twice.

Angelic17

Cessy one thing that I have learned about addiction is that lying comes with the territory. Your honest, and that's admirable, but others that come and go in meetings might not be. Don't let them bum you out. You work on you, and they need to work on them. Remember one thing, they are only fooling themselves. My sister has 10 years clean, and through her program and recovery, she has become the most honest person on the planet. She just doesn't lie at all. I know she can be trusted 100%.
I understand that it's about trust.

laurie6781

You are making 'assumptions' here that just are not true.

Any meeting I have gone to, almost from the first week, even the newcomer can pick up on the difference between the "Real McCoy" and "the Wanna Be."

Even to the 'newcomer' it becomes pretty darn clear, pretty darn quickly the difference between those that 'just talk the talk' and those that 'walk the talk.'

The only person one of those "phonies" you referred to is fooling, is themselves. Their ACTIONS trip them up every time!

J M H O

Love and hugs,

kj3880

Or sometimes maybe it's just that we actually said something that hurt someones' feelings, like "I wished the double-winners would get their own meetings so I could...be protected from non-recovering addicts"

Yes, that hurt my feelings. It made me feel like I wasn't wanted in some alanon meetings. It's something I did suspect sometimes. You've put words to it that I've never heard anyone speak. Thanks for your honesty. I'll tell you something true that I've learned through experience:

People in codie relationships resent those who are double-winners and suspect we may have acted like their past and present A's. Then they get involved with a's from meetings that hurt them and bring out the codie in them all over again, and that validates their feelings that maybe if there were not a's in the world, they wouldn't be sick from codependency. There will always be people for us to get codie on. Addicts, or just people-users. If we don't learn to stop being codie, we will keep hurting. We can run but we can't hide.

Love,
KJ

Chino

I wish there were no sociopathic/active addict/narcissist doctors, lawyers, therapists, police officers, ministers, neighbors, family members, etc. I wish the world was safe but it is not. I can deal with it or curl up in the fetal position. I choose to deal.

bluejay6

You're right, KJ. I trusted the wrong person. I trusted too easily. I believed in a 10 years recovering addict who was admired, speaker at conferences, a sponsor, devoted parent, and an exceptional man in my eyes.

I believed in him too easily and too soon. I have learned my lesson about trust. I have learned my lesson about my codependent tendency to project my own ideals onto someone else who has not earned that regard over time. Time has removed the gauze from my eyes and I regret so much of what I did in blind faith. Just because he was a double winner.

It took me months to return to Al-Anon. I think it is comparable to people who find it hard to return to church, after the priest has violated them in some way. Church becomes a place where trust was lost and faith in people was lost. Faith especially in those who seemed to embody our highest values. Al-Anon is a spiritual program, and in it I lost my faith.

That is my story and I am working on stabilizing. I still attend Al-Anon but it's a different kind of meeting far from the urban one I went to. I feel safer. A blue collar town and many women in the group who have really lived life the hard way. When I first went to their meeting, I told them right away my story and my fears of Al-Anon. And they accepted me with love and I stayed. There are a couple double winners in the group.

You shouldn't have to worry that you are not welcome in Al-Anon, for you have suffered the pain of addictive relationship, too, and that is where you will find help and healing. If you can, forgive those of us who are still wary of someone with addictive disease. As I hope those with addictive disease will forgive codependents who can interfere with their recovery. For we can certainly hurt addicts, too, in our need to save them.

Thanks for the honest sharing back and forth. And I hope our dialogue also has helped Cessy.

Bluejay

cessy68

Here's why I give a rip,

A.) I'm put in the position of serving the alcoholic a drink at my work, after hearing that story........ and that sucks. I can't tell him NO, it's not my place...

B.) I'm irritated that people who go to programs are afforded 'time' 'patience' (extra time off at work) to work their 'program' while the others (including me, best be back at work within 1 hour during lunch), and yet the guy is dishonest and blows lines in the bathroom..... HE PROJECTS the word of the lord, from his pocket bible at his desk, and then does the opposite.... it's being a hypocrite, and no one has the b**** to call him on it.

C.) I am frustrated with the phonies, and yes, there are phonies in ALL walks of life, but lets say a lawyer is a liar etc... he's not walking around saying "every one should practice law, and serve our justice system"......
yet addicts, (i find more and more) who are in a program say, "don't do drugs, or don't drink" and then do it themselves.......

let's face it, we all have our faults, but it seems when dealing with the addicts around us, everyone affords them the luxury of screwing up, lyeing, etc. and we placate them with, "one day at a times" and "do the best you can" I feel this just allows them to do the best they can one day at a time, and do what they want the rest..... how convienent for them.

Ya know anvil, you are lucky that you made it through --- and that you do live your life the 'right way' now, but there are many people who just continue on hurting people around them with their phonie balony verbal rehtoric.

Finally, I do live my life authentically, that is why I don't censor how I feel anymore..... if people disagree, thats fine, but I must be honest with MYSELF, and everyone else around me to live an authentic life.

Here is one more example.... i had a girlfriend after she got divorced, preach to everyone about how she was the 'perfect mother, how she did EVERYTHING for her kids, bla bla bla. I finally had to tell her one day, that if she REALLY believed that she was the perfect mom, she wouldn't need to verbalize it all the time, she wouldn't need that validation and affirmation from others..... some people who 'work there programs authentically' should do the same, work the program, and be authentic to themselves...........



Hope you understand what I'm attempting to say.

P.s. I know the abf talks the talk, and dosen't walk the walk, and yes I'm frustrated with that, BUT the ONE thing he dosen't do, is preach to others about NOT doing drugs etc and then turn around and do them. The ONLY credit I give him through all of this, is he NEVER is preachy or 'pretends' that he is doing well.......... he just flat out admitts his issues exist. I don't allow that to excuse his behavior, but I don't look at him as a hypocrite...I just look at him as an addict who isn't ready to change his behavior, and there is not a dang thing I can do for him.

Love,
Cess

cessy68

Is that judgeing? Or am I doing exactly what everyone who is a recovered codie is asked to do-- which is to have the ability to decide what is ACCEPTABLE to ME, and decide what STANDARDS of behavior I am willing to ALLOW in my life, from those around me??

This is exactly what I'm talking about.... people will preach program verbage, such as "judge not, lest ye be judged", and then turn around when you are NOT judgeing your addicts behavior, and say, "Is this ACCEPTABLE to YOU? what are you doing for YOU?"

In order to decide if someone elses actions are acceptable to you in your life, you must judge................

meditation

I would personally get out of that line of work. You are going to come across more sick people serving them alcohol than you would in a different line of work. Not all people that drink are problems children but the probability that they are in active addiction is higher than in other areas.
And thus you will be triggered more running across those folks. Why put yourself in that position? And if you do become a counselor you won't want to be serving two opposing purposes in life. Can you serve alcohol and then counsel them later? Can this truly be done? I think it's a tough place you are in and I hope you can find some peace about trusting others.

meditation

There is no animosity at all. It is what I would do myself to protect myself. I remove myself from situations that have some more potential to harm me. I see it more of a good boundary thing. I certainly don't mean to upset anybody, it's what I would tell myself or a good friend. It's hard to convey good intentions on the net.

Chino

In order to decide if someone's actions are acceptable in my life, I must figure out and decide what values and actions I expect from myself, then honor them. That is why we ask people if ____ is acceptable to them. If it is, so be it. If it isn't, we suggest they are honor themselves.

Acceptance and judgment are two different things. When we get to that place we no longer judge others.

bluebelle

I don't know, I think all kinds of people preach one thing, but do another. I'm a great codie. I can figure out what is best for other people. I know how they "should" be running their life, etc. However, heaven forbid I try to figure out what to do in my own life. I am filled with indecision and make what are probably the "wrong" decisions all the time. There are a lot of imperfections in humanity. There are a lot of addictions that don't have to do with drugs or alcohol. There are some people who are really trying, and others who want to have their cake & eat it too. Real change is hard. Very hard. Believe me, I know, because I'm trying to work on change within myself. I feel like I cannot judge how another person is doing in their journey, because I'm not in their head. I just try to watch their actions, and decide what kind of behavior is acceptable/or not to me--as it relates to me. I'm not going to let someone mistreat me. However, whatever decisions they make are their own. Who am I to say what is best for them? This may be their 100th trip to AA, and their 1000th drink, but maybe it will be their last drink. I don't know.

If you don't feel comfortable serving drinks to people, then you should be doing something else. I would find that difficult to serve a drink to someone who clearly has a drinking problem. Maybe you should find a restaurant job where you don't serve drinks?

Hammerhead

Here's what to do about the phonies... repeat this to yourself

God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can; and wisdom to know the difference.

kj3880

Cessy, there will come a time, and I think it will be soon, when you will read through your words on this thread, as I have done on some of the early ones I wrote last year (and will probably do on some that I write now next year!) and wish you could eat them.

You are normally so rational. Such a cool, interesting, intelligent, fellow codie. But you've got your knickers twisted a bit wrong on this issue, IMO. It is important to judge who you choose to let be in your home, whether the person you are married to or live with is recovering or not enough to make a happy relationship. That is a decision that belongs to you. It is inside your hula-hoop. Your home. Your significant other.

But, IMO, it is inappropriate to expect others in the recovery community to meet that behavioral standard that you set for your chosen significant other. And it is useless to be angry at addicts that are not in your life for still being sick from addiction, IMO. In fact, IMO, it is counterproductive to your recovery.

If you went to NA or AA, as I do, you would be constantly angry if you did that, as people who suffer from the disease of addiction fight constantly, and someone is always 'fessing up to a relapse, like nightly! It doesn't mean they are bad people failing in a quest to be good. They are sick people, having trouble getting well. It doesn't merit anger, IMO. Distancing oneself from being around active addicts is smart. Being angry at people who you aren't involved with for being sick is just a distraction from your real issues, which IMO, include getting yourself free from a relationship that seems to be bringing you down, or deciding to get into your recovery to the point where you are no longer hurt by his lack thereof (something I wouldn't want to try to do.)

And addicts aren't the only ones who hide their still-sick behavior behind a veil of recovery. How many codies have we known on SR who are preaching that good talk about distance and boundaries for weeks, then one day come in and 'fess up that they actually let their addict hubby move back in some time ago, and lied about it or kept it secret from their SR buddies so they can maintain their status in this recovery community??? Addicts have no monopoly on deceit in recovery.

Love,
KJ

itisatruth

I agree Kj. I used to work in a store -- and people would lie and/or be mean over the silliest things - like a 50 cent coupon or an expired ad -- because they justified it.

Honestly, I'm not too worried about status here on this online (anonymous) world, but there have been times that I have not felt like sharing things that I myself have had trouble reconciling. I imagine that could be the same for addicts.....the feeling of shame or disappointment for not having (yet) lived up to our own ideals - for relapsing, slipping up, making mistakes.

Is deceit in the name of embarrassment/shame the same or different from deceit to get something for oneself while pulling the wool over someone else? Or hurting someone?

So going back to "take what you want and leave the rest". We all - recovered, codie, addict, normies, whatever - are imperfect, yet can offer something that might be useful to others. Growth and learning doesn't just end.......it is an ongoing life process IMHO.

Doesn't it say somewhere that we can learn from the newcomers and relapsers just as they can learn from the recovering ones?

I don't know, I guess I am just uncomfortable with generalizing - yes there are common threads among people, yet I think it is important to not stereotype.

That's not to say that we can't draw our own boundaries for people who hurt us. We totally need to do that - we need to figure out what type of people we want around us in our lives and what kind of boundaries we can live with/enforce.

Angelic17

Cessy, I have been following this post all along and it got pretty hot. I can understand that your upset about addicts talking the talk, but not walking the walk. And how they get certain time off for meetings, and then after the meeting they are in the bar drinking. I know that the one day at a time thing can be annoying when your out of patience and want the addict to just give it up already, because they are hurting them selves and others. I know it's very tough for certain people to accept some of the behaviors and situations that come with the addict. That's very understandable. I have been there, and done that with my own addict son.

However, all judgement aside. There are two major features that come with addiction. One is LYING, and the other is RELAPSE. They are both part of the disease.
Alot of addicts want to walk the walk, but they can't, just yet. Maybe they are just starting out, and trying to walk the walk. They start out talking the talk, and then they relapse.

RELAPSE is a core feature when it comes to addiction. Alot of people don't get clean the first few times they try. They might really want to be clean, and cannot get a grip on the addiction. It's not easy, and in most cases, it's very very difficult. Especially with alcohol. These people seem hypocritical, and in some cases they are just plain full of Chit, but some of them aren't.

They are just sick and addicted.
Only GOD is the judge of us all.
NA/AA Naranon, and Alanon are all programs for the people who do want the help.
And they are helpful.
If someone else comes into my program, and is lying, or high
they are only wasting their own time.
Not mine. I am there for ME. And I don't judge the addict
that is still suffering from active addiction. I pity them

It's a rough road, and that person will either find the help he needs and recover,
die, or live in the misery and suffering of addiction with nothing and nobody.

Which ever way it goes for that person,
I am still grateful for my recovery.
Seeing someone who is lying and phonie, makes me more grateful that I am not in that condition. Seeing someone who is messed up, get clean also makes me grateful. It's always nice to see that the program works for some of us.
I have learned to look at myself, and not to look at what others are doing.
I learned that the hardest way of all, with my own child.
I wanted him to do what I wanted him to do, it didn't happen
The addict gets clean, and walks the walk, when he is ready,
not when we want him to.
Lying and Relapse are just symptoms of the disease.
Don't let it get to you. Especially if its not your own family.
Pity and Prayer are what I have for the phonies.

cessy68

Ok, it's too much work this morning (afternoon) to quote everyone, but you all made a lot of sense.........

I'm not eating my words Kj, because they are how i feel, HOWEVER, I do see what you are saying.....

I guess I am angry. I am sad. I am frustrated, and I'm sick and tired of being patient with people. I've tried and tried, to be loving to all people. Addicts, liars, theifs, bad bosses, etc. I was always the one who said what you all are saying, "who am I to judge?".... I think I've just hit a brick wall and suddenly felt like, If I DON'T judge, I'm going to keep getting hurt by people.....

I feel that I try so hard to be considerate of others, to think that many times, MY PERSONAL BEST hasn't been enough for someone....so I afford others the same. I allow their personal best to be ok with me. Then I get blindsided by their conceqeuent actions.

Perhaps I should just take some time off from here. I can't figure things out anymore. The only time I don't get hurt by others anymore, is when I feel gaurded and angry. I'm sick of living my life, doing 'what is right' to have others do the wrong thing, and mistake my kindness for weakness.

This is why one day, I will be a therapist and I have choosen to go into berevement counseling. People at the end of their lives, have so much clarity. Suddenly, you are able to see what time you wasted, how much anger and pain you held inside, that prevented you from living 'free' and 'authentically' throughout your life. These people are given a gift, when suffering through terminal illness-- they have time to restore some things they want to change before they pass..... most of us don't have that luxury.

It's funny, because last night I had a crazy dream, (and yes, i analzye my dreams a lot), but there was a lot of bridges, (that I kept getting stuck before crossing) a big clock in my hand (i mean huge), I was in some kind of rushed crisis, and no one was there to help me, EXCEPT my mother..... she is the one person, that NO MATTER WHAT is always there for me.

I think that I'm going to give her a call this morning, because of this dream. It let me see that I may take advantage of her love and kindness, (exactly how she raised me to be), and perhaps, I'm taking advantage of her, the way others take from me.

I suppose that there is a lot of stuff going on inside of me.....I'm dissapointed. I know dissapointment comes from expectations, but it's so hard to just let it all go. I'm sorry if I offended anyone. I'm just trying to sort out my feelings surrounding all of this, and my part in it, and why I was put into this situation. There is a lesson here for me to learn, and it's really taking quite some time for it to expose itself.

Thanks all,
Love,
cess