equus

And from a research summary both animal and human:
reference:
http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publicatio...25-1/12-19.htm


Ok - I confess I like the hunt so thanks for the broad reference or the broken link!!

denny57

This sure applies when you're married to a writer, like I am/was. My AH said whatever came to mind to see the reaction it would get. When people would ask, doesn't it bother you, some of the stuff he says, I would usually reply no, because I know what he's doing.

As the years and the disease progressed, what he said got meaner and meaner, with no hint of humor. I believe it is a combination of mental impairment brought on by the alcohol abuse in addition to just how crap he felt from the other physiological affects. Of course, his work started to suffer and that set up the cycle of fear and rage.

I think this debate will be ongoing for a long, long time. My personal opinion, after living with it for 18 years, is the alcohol abuse does not bring out the "real" person. It brings out the drunk.

As always, JMHO.


edit to add: in the end, it all came down to me also becoming caught up in his addiction and that led to my own unhealthy behaviors. understanding what the A is going through has been helpful to me in my own recovery but I try every day to keep the focus where it belongs: on me

DesertEyes

* lol * That's what I say about my bookshelves

and sorry for the link to the home page, my bad.

eeeesh, you're too fast for me!!!

Yes, alcohol is a _sedative_ as a chemical. When it sedates the frontal lobe it is _inhibiting_ the operation of the frontal lobe. The function of the frontal lobe (among many others things) is to inhibit compulsive/impulsive behavior. So the result of a sedative is to "un-sedate" compulsive behavior.

The sedative effect of alcohol applies to the _entire_ brain, so when the motor centers are sedated you get the "falling off the chair". Medically, that's considered "sedation" of the muscle centers, even though it certainly looks "dis-inhibited"

I wasn't even going to mention individual differences in rearing experiences cuz it's too easy for people to use that as an excuse for inappropriate behavior.

The end result of all this is that it is very difficult to figure out whether a person under the effect of alcohol is "dis-inhibited".

Mike
p.s. I'll have to find you some more "links" to go hunting for, since you enjoy it so much.
p.p.s. When you are done with your current educational endeavor, you might want to look into a degree in Biology. The big medical centers and pharmaceuticals are always in need of good research people, and you'd be an asset to them. My ex-wife did that, and was very succesful at it.

equus

I agree - but would only add the two are connected and remain the same human being.

What is the real me? It's the me I am.

equus

Give us a minute Mike - I'll find the refs but the effects on the frontal lobe are more complex than sedation.

equus

It's just occured to me....

Is there a confusion between synaptic uptake inhibitors and 'inhibitions' in the behavioural sense?

My reference to inhibition is behavioural, the other would be rather complex to explain and not very relevant to the post.

Ok - back to the frontal lobe. (If it is just a confusion let me know)

MsPINKAcres

I was just discussing this issue on another site - another person was thinking that the alcohol brought out the A's true feelings and the things said during a drunken state was how the A really felt.

My AH & I have had a few discussions about this topic since his sobriety - some in addressing his comments and the some in addressing my feelings about the comments - so this is just what he shared about what his thinking was during the times of active drinking and/or using of RX -

He says "My main purpose was to get you to get the focus off of me - If I could get you to start defending your actions or behaviors then you were no longer pointing the finger at me or my actions - I had accomplished my goal - and then I didn't have to deal with my issues, my problems and my guilt over what I was doing. You would usually get your feelings hurt so badly that you would withdraw from the fight - then I didn't have to see the hurt in your face and eyes - Then I could self-justify by saying she doesn't really care - so I'll just go drink or use more. It was all about pushing you away so I could be alone and miserable. If I was alone and miserable, then I had a reason to do what I was doing"

It was a very painful thing for us to talk about - Realizing the pain that both of us were in during those 10 plus years of h*ll - so just my little understanding that I have of this horrible disease is that we may never really know why they say, what they say, when they drink or use, but I do know now that I do have the right to just walk away, without defending myself, without arguing back, I don't have to try to reason with someone under the influence. I don't give credit to anything, anyone says that is under the influence for I have no way of knowing if it is true or not.

Just how I have to live to be comfortable in my skin,
Rita

equus

Ok - here's a start:
Reference (from Biology 202 but is itself well referenced):
http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neur...2/epowell.html

DesertEyes

Yes they are, I'm trying to stay withing the bounds of the original question, otherwise we'll end up writing a Doctoral thesis

Exactly right, let's not get down to the chemistry of synapses. Let' not get any anatomicaly or chemically deeper than the frontal lobe, shall we?

Mike

equus

But Mike - you did in your first reply.

I think my responses have all surrounded alcohol and it's effect on behaviour - with the exception of trying to clear whether we have misunderstood terms.

The connection between the whole person and the effect alcohol has on them is real. The effects of alcohol don't happen in a vacum of personality or humaness of the drinker. Individual differences are well documented and experienced by many here.

Mike if you try and find the reference for your first explaination - (the one loosely referenced to the NIAAA) you might in the process see that two different issues have become confused.

The behavioural inhibition doesn't decrease - someone very drunk may be conscious of their choice to lay down to sleep in a VERY inappropriate place, and yet doso anyway without inhibition.

Sedative and inhibitor DOESN'T mean the same and neither is the same as behavioural inhibition.

Did you want more frontal lobe quotes?

sunshine003

this is all very interesting and equus, you put things in a very easy to understand way. I remember drinking too much before and laying down on the couch instead of just taking the time to walk to my bed. My reason was I was TIRED right now, right here.

Why is it that my AH never "passes out." Maybe he does but it takes a LONG, LONG time. He'll stay up all night if he's drunk. When he finally does pass out or go to sleep (whatever you'd call it), he's back up within hours, unable to sleep.

DesertEyes

* lol * I was trying to keep the discussion in general terms. I didn't succeed, did I? *lol*

Yes you did. And I think you are right in that we have confused _several_ terms.

Yup. How about this:

Sedation is a medical term, it refers to the _overall_ effect of a chemical such as alcohol on the _function_ of a part of the body, such as the frontal lobe.

Inhibition is a behavioral term, it refers to rules and expectation of behavior as applied by a society on an individual.

Inhibitor is a chemical term, it refers to the action of certain chemicals on the action of other chemicals. I'd like to leave the chemistry of synapses out of the discussion, whatdya think?

Agree completely. I am _not_ discussing the _awareness_ ( or lack thereof ) that an alcoholic may have about their own behavior.

What I am trying to do is illustrate the _progression_ of the disease. First the progression of the loss of behavioral inhibition over the course of a single drinking session, and secondly the progression of the increased rate of loss of that inhibition over time as the liver, kidney and brain deteriorate. The purpose of those illustration is to underscore my point that even though there is a "magic moment" when alcohol allows a person to act without inhibition that "moment" is fleeting as the effects of alcohol quickly bring out many other factors that overwhelm a persons "true feelings".

No thank you, I studied all that stuff in school. 4 years of biochem, 6 of psych, 1 of neuro. Give me any more quotes and I'll start wondering if my frontal lobe has been sedated and i am hallucinating

Mike

DesertEyes

p.s. gotta run to my f2f meet, will return this afternoon to continue this.
p.p.s. love a good discussion with ya equus

Mike

equus

Now THAT would need a longwinded answer!! The short one is that the sedative effect hasn't become great enough to send him to sleep and he doesn't want to go to sleep! It is most likely due to built up tolerance to alcohol and perhaps switching of autonomic nervous systems leading to an aroused state. Things associated with an aroused state are:
*Fear
*anger
*Excitement (like over enthusiasm)
*Sexual drive
*Anxiety/worry
*Emotional upset (like sobbing etc)

Sleep after alcohol is typically of lower quality and therefore people often do wake early.

The physiology behind the above is pretty complex and I'm not sure it adds much - but ask if you want and I'll have a hunt for stuff.

equus

Can you reference this because I'm struggling to untangle it. I can't agree or disagree because I'm not sure I know what you mean. It'll help me lots to see the source - I'll know which tree is being barked up!!

megamysterioso

Mine was the same way (for the most part) sunshine. He had very broken sleeping patterns and then claimed that without the alcohol, he could not sleep at all. There is a relationship to his alcohol consumption and his sleeping patterns and equus summed it quite well I think.

Just for the record- I was just throwing out the old proverb for lack of anything better to type b/c I did not see the show that sunshinebluesky was refering too. I should maybe type nothing next time I have one of those "duh" moments!!! I've enjoyed reading the responses here and agree that this is a complex topic with many factors to consider. It has definitely generated a lot of food for thought.

equus

To summarise....

*I think staying with a violent/abusive drunk in the hope of something radically different sober is sadly misguided.
*I think ignoring what someone says drunk (eg suicide threats, threats of violence or statements of hatred) is to miss information that DOES come from the person.
*I think people have reasons why they lie and the best way to find out what they are is to ask in a neutral way - in my experience the honesty offered in return is often surprising!!

sunshine003

He does have a high tolerence in comparison to a non alcoholic. However, I've seen his tolerance slip over the past three years. He isn't to the point where he drinks daily....he binges when he does drink consuming large amounts that would kill me (no joke) and I believe kill any nonalcoholic. I figured he didnt' sleep because his body wants more alcohol, therefore he can't sleep. I figured he woke after a few hours (3 to 5 hours) in such pain because his body was waking him up, screaming for more.

With that said, I believe alcohol would eventually cause a non alcoholic to pass out. If I have more than three drinks, I can say, I'm drunk. After an hour or so of being drunk, I want sleep. But it appears different for him. Well after he's, what I'd consider drunk, he just wants to drink more, LOL. I read people here say their husbands pass out early, I've been jealous.

sunshine003

that is probably very true equus. My ah is all the things you said and I realize that brings it to a different level than just being an "alcoholic." However, asking someone like him in a neutral way, "why do you lie" would not get me a suprising answer. If he didn't get angry or defensive, he just say, "I don't and you don't believe that." LMAO

equus

Point taken!! It's something you can't really do until both parties KNOW a lie's been told and it's about why when there's no denial left. It still can be surprising though, people lie, and once that's out in the open without it meaning 'LIAR' I think sometimes we want to say why.

I know as a kid I'd lie through my teeth to avoid punishment, I'd lie anytime today to save getting whacked!