Pick-a-name

...and neither are you?....((equs))...Perhaps it happened this way for this very reason? I do not know; but maybe ?! Time will tell....hope the session is good and productive to you!

I know you are apprehensive...you will do very well, I am sure!

Pip56

Hi Equus, I am wondering what type of "FEELINGS" are coming up for due during this situation. I am hearing a lot of "head stuff". Sometimes the head can be so far from the heart! ` Don't know if I am getting across just want I want to say..what EMOTIONS are you going through over all this?

splendra

Equus

I also wonder about your feelings and your spirit. It seems that as long as you can intelectualize this recovery process that you and D are going thru together that you feel that everything is under control.

Your feeligs are still there reguardless of your acknowledging them. Some of us know what happens when we don't stay current with our feelings. They go subliminal and they can wreck havoc in the life of the person that is not acknowledging and processing them.

I understand wanting to take the bull by the horns and wrestle him to the ground and put a spear thru him. Addiction is a cunning and baffling disease. I don't care how many PhDs or MDs someone has after their name addiction is still slicker than they are.

I hope D wants recovery more than you want it for him because that is what will keep him sober....

FriendofBill

Ok, thanks for giving me permission to say what I really mean.

Let go of controlling, monitoring, analysing, managing, judging, counting all things related to your husbands alcoholism/recovery, the professionals who are treating him/you, his medications and everything else that has nothing to do with you.

Ok, Im done.
Thank you and good night!

FormerDoormat

I've followed this thread since it began and here are my feelings on the direction it has taken. It's obvious to me that everyone here cares about Equus very much and wants to help her find a path to serenity. This is resulting in a good deal of tough love.

Tough love can help a person eventually reach their bottom, but I find that people only reach their bottom when the methods they've been using to cope with a problem obviously aren't working after they've tried them repeatedly, regrouped, re-analyzed the problem, and then attacked it from another angle. In short, people only see what they want to see when they're ready to see it, and they only reach their bottom when they've exhausted all their resources, and they only let go of the things that aren't working for them when they realize they're not working. It's definitely not an overnight process.

Heck, it took me 23 years to come to the realization that I had no contol over anyone except myself. No amount of tough love by my family and friends did any good until I was ready to listen, until I was ready to let go of my past behaviors, and in my case, until I was ready to let go of my unhealthy relationship.

We're each at different phases in the process. Some of us have found a path to serenity, some of us are still searching for a method that works for them. I think it's helpful for us to share what methods worked for us and what methods didn't, but we each have to find our own solution in our own time.

I think if Equus had asked us how we feel she's doing in her recovery and if we feel she's on the right track then it would be appropriate for all of us to share our opinions, but she hasn't.

Heck, I'm so amazingly happy and my life is so peaceful and serene since I left my AB that I tend to want everyone here to follow my path, stop accepting the unacceptable, let their addicts deal with their own problems, and walk away from an unhealthy relationship. But what I want may not be what others here want.

So if it appears that folks came down a little hard on you today, Equus, I'm sure they did so because they love you and want the best for you. And of course, I do, too.

equus

I'm sure the motivations are in all the right place but it is why I avoid the Al-Anon approach. What we're doing is working for us because you can't just smack a square peg harder to get it in the round hole!

That's all that's really happened here - a recognition that I have different beliefs and a harder smack hoping this confounded square peg will get a little rounder. There's lots of wisdom at SR but it hasn't been best demonstrated here.

What strikes me as odd is that blatantly I do have my own identity and thoughts and I'm capable of respecting myself and my own beliefs even under considerable peer pressure, and yet the at times the concern seems to be I've thrown them all over to D. Does that really make sense? The person that you see here, who knows her own mind and does her own thinking is SO different in her relationship? The reality is that I'm not different at home D hasn't anymore chance of getting me to throw myself and my identity away than the considerable group effort displayed here.

Does that mean I'm stubborn and never change? HELL NO!! Through life I've at some point changed most of my core beliefs and I've actually met few people who can honestly say that. I change my beliefs when I'm aware they're wrong - ie when I can no longer defend them.

Does it mean I'm so arrogant I think my way needs no input? HELL NO!! If it did why would I be going to counselling? Why would I read and learn if I thought I already knew it all? I haven't set out on this alone, the only advice I ever gave D was that he needed proffessional help - not mine.

The vast majority of the replies to this thread are about wanting the odd one out to conform. They're not about what I want - a few have considered that but many of the replies are based on what people responding want me to do and think.

We're using a different approach, it isn't al-anon, not every proffessional in the world of addiction sings al-anon's praises. Why not watch with curiosity? Why not watch what happens instead of doing the exact same thing you're so sure I'm doing?

I can understand the frustration in caring about people over the net that never get help for themselves or go totally left field without any guidance. BUT we are involved in a structured programme delivered by a mainstream alcohol advisory service. I have gone for proffessional help, this thread was about MY individual counselling from that service. I'm not sat here with some smug grin on my face thinking I have all the answers - absolutely not, I'm spending real effort seeking them for good sources.

Why not just let this oddball be a guinnee pig? Why is it so absolutely terrifying that something other than al-anon can work? Why not look with interest instead of being so sure I'm merely wasting time until my bottom is hit?

On here I'm told I'm on the way down - in counselling I'm told we're BOTH making good progress - and you know what? It's the latter that I SEE in my life. My anxiety level has dropped, I know D may well relapse but I feel far more prepared for that than I was. I also know he MIGHT not relapse and being hopeful/believing in someone isn't a crime or insanity.

I've spewed my share of emotion on here, of course I feel things. As for my spirit - it's what I see as my identity or my will. I can best sum it up as the footprint I'll leave behind in this world after I'm gone. It won't be served just by agreeing when it's uncomfortable to be in the minority. I believe it will be served by my efforts to speak in one language, my heart, actions, and mind in agreement with what I say. That may sound over simplified but try it - for one day, just try to think carefully about your words and measure what you say against what you relly believe, try and have no distance between words and action. I can tell you I work hard at it but sure as hell couldn't claim any perfection in it.

There are some people on here who can genuinely respect people who DON'T share their beliefs, a sort of interest and curiosity. There are some who believe in my right to hold different beliefs but can't concieve of any chance I could be right, a deep and meaningful concern. Unfortunately (and I hope I'm wrong) I think there are others who are just plain angered at my presence, who really don't think expressing views other than al-anon belongs here and who absolutely CANNOT seem to accept what we're doing is inherently different.

I never signed up to al-anon principles, I don't agree with them. I do think there is some wisdom within both the 12 steps and the experience of others BUT I'm taking what I want and leaving the rest. As that's what I've heard quoted so often as an al-anon principle isn't it about time staunch supporters started to live the beliefs they claim to have? Stop trying to force feed me the enitire approach with an 'eat your greens' attitude.

If it turns out you weren't really who you wanted to be yesterday try again today - welcome to my world, that's how I live.

Okay - I haven't answered every question here, largely because the responses to each would be just as long. If anyone asked anything they still genuinely want to know I'll be more than happy to answer - just ask again.

I know you all care and I've tried to tread a fine line here, I want to be respectful and honest. I'm sure I haven't managed that perfectly and if anyone is offended call me on it, I need to learn by mistakes too.

walkingtheline

Equus-

I often do not agree with you. But, I have never had a desire to dwell in Stepford. I am Catholic. My sister is a Jehovah's Witness. We may not agree on our religious practices but I love her all the same. I may say poe-tay-toe and you may say poe-tah-toe but I'll bet we're both still speaking of the same tuber.

I have a friend who has had breast cancer-twice. She takes Laetrile rather than use traditional treatment methods. Do I agree with her? Absolutely not. Am I fearful for her? YES. But, she believes strongly and as her friend, I expressed my opinion when she asked for it and let it drop. It's her life, her disease. She is not a stupid woman. If she believes this is right - for her - as her friend I can only hope she has made the right decision, pray for her total recovery and support her any way I can.

I disagree with your outlook. God is very important to me, as are my religious beliefs in general. I believe in the 12 steps and think AA (and all the related As) are the best and most proven way to get a grip on the various addictive behaviors. But, since I also believe our greatest gift from God (and hardest to control-hahaha) is free will, I will respect your choices and will lend my voice in support of what you, as a child of God and as a fellow cyber-citizen of SR have chosen as the correct pathway for you. I will also pray that He will help you find your way.

"I may not agree with what you say,
but to your death I will defend your right to say it." -Voltaire

jojo

Equus -

Why would anyone be angry by your presence here? That makes no sense. What I see in most of these posts is an honest concern for you. I cannot believe that there is one person here who thinks that being hopeful is a crime or insanity. No one is attacking you. I'm sorry that you seem to feel that way. I for one have never been heavily involved in Alanon but I did learn one thing - after beating my head against the wall over and over again, I discovered that it hurt too much and stopped. I wish you well on the recovery program that you chosen.

Jo

equus

WTL - I respect the above absolutely. I have friends that believe in god and we don't have a problem. You might remember me having mentioned the guy who first said to me that strong words were saying what you really believe? Well I took probably the most important target for my life from his wisdom and he was a Sinhalese Catholic! You had the respect to answer the question I asked in this thread - and it was a cracking answer, without it I'd have been stumped because the counsellors first question was what did I want. The response from the counsellor might not fit with AA but that would be like being surprised at the service not being christian while stood in a mosque!!

I worry about the effects of elements of the AA aproach - in particular powerlessness and that lack of control is taught as proving that. That doesn't make sense to me because lack of control is normal in most things where we have influence - we CONTROL few things in life. I understand why it's there, to simplify and absolve responsibility - but I don't feel responsible for D's drinking in the first place! He drank before I met him, gallons in the years we weren't in touch and while he's been with me. What can I say? I TOTALLY know that I don't control it! Me caring about the support and influence I can offer is no more than providing a fertile ground for D to make the changes he's working on, it's him changing him and I've NEVER said otherwise. However I feel no need to 'let go' of the process involved in my own counselling - that IS my business (I know you didn't say that).

The point is I'm still here, I do take the bits I can use, I remain curious and that's a benefit to me. Anyone else here has the chance to do the same seeing how our programmes pan out.

We're being empowered to use our strengths, and even to see if our weaknesses can be channelled into more productive areas.

I couldn't help but giggle at the Stepford bit - when was the last time you met someone as outspoken on here? I only possess one dress, can't bake to save my life, have bigger biceps than my hubby, can change a tyre faster than most blokes, and was the first women my boss ever taught to break horses, and folk female, male, white, green or black I take as I find them, following no-one blindly!

equus

I'm glad to hear you feel that way - like I said originally I'm not CERTAIN people are angry and I do hope I'm wrong. I suppose being in the minority in anything makes a person a little more sensitive.

minnie

Equus, I know that sometimes we have minor differences in approach, however I will defend to the last your right to do what is right for you. Sometimes I will ask questions for clarification or consideration, as do you, but it is never my intention to get you to see that my way is the only way. How arrogant that would be of me!

This isn't an official al-anon board, it is simply a place to share experiences and ideas. We don't often have disagreements about approach and I often think that's because there is no real alternative to al-anon for many people, unlike for alcoholics. You are lucky enough to have access to something different and I think it is wonderful to see that in action. My ex and I would have had difficulties with this approach, simply because he was in so much denial about his problem and he would have been going along with it to keep me quiet.

Al-anon works for me because it is about ME. There was a reason that I got together with an alcoholic and it has nothing to do with a God. It is because I took it upon myself in my formative years to be a caretaker and carried that into my adult life. Al-anon has helped me to unravel this, but I see it as a tool that works alongside counselling, reading and research.

The powerless thing gets a lot of bad press which I can understand. Especially as it says in the Al-anon preamble that "changed attitudes can aid recovery". If that isn't implying influence, then I'll eat my hat. However, I know from experience that I have no power to change another person if they don't want to change. An alcoholic deep in a drinking phase is not receptive to influence. It is only when the consequences are painful enough will they reconsider how they live their life.

Personally I think many of the problems that you face on this site stem from the fact that D seems not to be a "typical" alcoholic (said with tongue firmly in cheek). It never ceases to amaze me how similar many alcoholics are and it intrigues me as to why this might be the case. Because of this similarity, there will be shared experiences of recovery and how certain tools were particularly effective. But they may not apply to you (and others) because of the difference in the manifestation of the alcoholism.

There is a place for everyone on these boards.

Love

Minnie
xxx

splendra

equus-

As a person whos thoughts has never been a part of the majority and has always thought outside the box it does not anger me when someone else thinks differently. It bothers me more that people are staring to come around to my way of thinking cause now I finally have to streach my thought life. I guess it is partly about getting older and maybe I have taught others things that they have carried to other parts of the world. I admire the hell out of you and wish you all the best. I mean give me a break how am I going to learn anything new with out someone like you to tweak me? If everyone agreed it would be so boring don't you agree....

I love the compassion you feel for D I have learned from you in that way. Growing up in addiction has tainted me and I do feel that my compassion has been reignited from reading your post...truely. My H is clean now and I believe I got alot from things you said in dealing with him. I post a lot more on the naranon board so I guess you have missed some of my praising of you. I hope you will streach out and read more in some of the other forums if you have not...cause I am sure you could contribute and learn.

I hope the way you are going about recovery works for you but if it don't I want to be the first in line to tell you I told ya so

equus

Thabnks for the support - it means one hell of alot!!

I don't think what me and D are doing would suit everyone. Part of the process was the counsellor assessing what strengths she could use and one of those was the bond between me and D. I think any bond that can span a decade of absense is pretty strong. I also think that it's often forgotten on here that at one time I kept my distance and wouldn't entertain any more than friendship with D.

The biggest thing that had changed in D when he found me all those years later was that HE didn't want to die and HE had made changes in his life in line with that. I couldn't have done either of those things for him and they make the crucial difference. D isn't in denial, but he's in a learning phase where he's uncertain. I'm not in denial, I deny very little except that I've somehow lost the ability to think independently and trust me if you spent 24 hours in our house you wouldn't even worry that I had!

D is different, I like different. Being different meant he grew up being called a freak, the only thing I know for certain about his IQ is that it's higher than 150 (he hit the 150 ceiling in considerabley less than the allotted time and we couldn't find another REPUTABLE site!). The counsellor we're working with also thinks there may well be an underlying psychiatric problem which is triggered by alcohol - apparently that isn't so rare. So he's most definately different! He's also classed by them as an alcoholic, not for the first time in his life!

I do love him and I've learned so much from him - especially on the compassion score, he's taught me stuff about respect I never even concieved of, I still can't get over how he treats my brother.

Some things are so precious I feel honoured to be watching them. Our friends are (according to D) the first friends he's ever had that listen to him or care. He's had acedemic friends who's minds he's respected and had the same in return but he says he's only just begining to learn what it feels like to be liked for himself.

I remember a decade ago running across the uni campus because D was so excited about something he wanted to show me. I thought it would be a maths problem, or that he'd devised a new method of writing (a little hobby of his), or some new piece of science on the net. When we arrived he turned on his telly just in time for the Animaniacs - Pinky and The Brain to be precise! He still gets glued to the Warner Brothers cartoons and Dangermouse is his ring tone!

I looked twice and saw a person, whole, complete, equal, different and certainly NOT a freak.

I wouldn't want anyone to leave what works for them and try something this different but I also think the advice we're getting is good and it's TAILORED to us as individuals. Even within the same building/organisation we attend they have AA meetings and sell AA books but they also acknowledge it isn't the best for everyone, just some.

Cap3

Hey equus,you say in one of your post,that we can't just smack a square peg harder to get it in the round hole,in refernce to the Al-anon program.If this is how you are understanding the al-anon program then you are way of base.You have every right to your opinions,though,they are not based on facts.This is only what youre telling yourself,and making yourself believe.Has nothing to do with how it does work in Al-anon,or even what this program is about.
You say that you don't like the powerlessness.Going to counselling,have you not admitted powerlessness,in a sence?Youre not at the doors of al-anon but you are getting ,some form of,help,like the rest of us.
I knew this couple who were married for many,many years.This im telling is in no way in reference to you,equus,.Just a point im making here,if i may.So the wife was always telling her hub,what to wear,what to eat,how much money to spend,,ect,,etc.I remember him coming down the stairs one day,and she said to him,in front of us,hey those pants youre wearing does not match your shirt.Either change your shirt,and or pants.Wowow,i thought.I wouldnt put up with this,if it were me.But ya know it wasn't me,that had to deal with this.It was him.And he did not mind this contolling wife.he always came to her,if he wanted something.This was agreeable to this couple,and how their marriage worked.Who am i to judge this?It works,for them.Personally i would probably last 2 minutes in this kind of a marriage,,lol.But its not me.Live and let live has become an important part of my life today.Different strokes for the many different folks.And this is my point that im sharrring,with the story above.To live and let live.Making assumtions about anyones program,or which solution they have found doesn't help anyone.
equus,keep on keeping on.Whatever program your using ,,keep an open mind and heart,to it.
ok im now off my soap box,and will practice what i just share myself.
To live and let live.....smile...

equus

Thanks Cap.

Don't worry I couldn't control D even if I tried and his dress sense is dreadful but I love him for it, he's not very materialistic! My reference to the square peg and round hole was in response to the replies here - all I'd done originally was ask for suggestions for a counselling session.

Talk about the nut and the sledge hammer!! It puts me off Al-Anon because it's 'Go to Al-Anon' 12 step stuff being pushed. I'm not sure I can imagine going on a thread where someone is asking what to raise with their Al-Anon sponsor and suggesting that they may think they're God, control their husband, possible Stepford wife suggestion, or that they are foolish to even be in Al-Anon.

If I didn't have a response to the question I wouldn't start jumping to 3 dozen assumptions.

FriendofBill

Im curious to know what/when/how long your experience in Al Anon was, Equus?
Would you share about that briefly?

equus

My comments were in reference to the thread. I don't agree with the twelve steps, I'm an aitheist and certainly the al-anon principles you have relayed don't seem remotely sensible to me.

In short I have the right to chose and have - I've chosen a proffessional alcohol advisory center in preference to an Al-Anon group. I have no more intention on inflicting my views on those in an Al anon meeting than I would preach aitheism in a temple!

However I have asked in the apst politely whether my views are acceptable here with a very positive response.

equus

I'm curious FoB - What is your experience of 'Task Centered Social Work'? That's the approach being used with me and D. Or of The Alcohol Problem Advisory Service based in the UK?

Have you ever looked into CBT? Cognitive Behavioural Therapy?

Or are we equally ignorant of each other's approach?

difference being of course I haven't tried to tell you what to do and what you should focus on.

FriendofBill

Who said you didnt have a right? No need to be so defensive, just asking what your experience with al-anon was, and now I know the answer is none.

Just dont understand how one can condemn something with out benefit of investigation.

So, you base your opinion on the 12 steps/al-anon without having attended a meeting?

Sorry, I dont get that.

equus

So I take it you have investigated the support I and D are using?

Edit - If you're going to say I've 'condemned' Al-Anon - QUOTE ME.
And for the record - good luck finding a quote where I condemn Al-Anon. It simply isn't true. All I have ever said is that I don't agree with the twelve steps or the principles and that it would NOT be my choice.

However I could find you numerous quotes where I have acknowledged it has worked for others.