Dan

I quoted all of your post Dax.
Just so there's no misunderstanding.
Your experience with AA and/or Al Anon represents just that.
Your experience. Yet you continue to use sweeping generalizations like "She is just appalled at all the dishonesty in a program that stresses honesty." about the program of Alcoholics Anonymous, essentially putting out the idea that your experience is the norm.
It simply is not.
In my opinion.

skippy1977

I have been reading everyones posts for several months. And, Ive got to say that you are all very brave and wonderful people. I have been a member of alanon for 14 years and my husband has been a member of AA off and on for 30 years. Thankfully he has been sober for the past 13 years. It was a long road and we are still works in progress. AA and alanon are not for everyone. But, the only rule they really have is to have a desire to stop drinking and that what you hear as a member and at meetings stays with just you and at the meeting. I know that in the beginning AA is a very selfish program and A's are told not to worry about anyone but themselves. That is why families are pointed in the direction of alanon because we are sick ourselves. I know that there were things I told my sponser in the begining that I am glad I never told my husband. Mainly feelings and thoughts. And there are also things I told at meetings and to my sponcer that later I felt able to tell my husband. Rome wasn't built in a day and my recovery isn't going to happen over night. Trust is something that is hard to do after the sickness of addiction. And we have to remember that acoholism is only the symtom of Acoholics the underlying issues are what the alcohol covers up thus allowing the A's to cope. I am still learning and changing and I hope to always be. Skippy

Magichappens

Thanks skippy. Glad you're here. Hugs, Magic

Chy

:slaphead :slaphead ..only because I do respect my elders will I remain restrained.

Chuckles101301

Yeah Skippy and Dan!

Dax, the program stresses honesty for the alcoholic, and stresses that the A take the "right" path. But as the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water....but you can't make him drink. You can stress honesty, but can't force it. Let go and let God. After 40 years together....I wonder if you have tried forgiveness....your AH has more rules than the Marines and it is just a form of control on your part. I have really found it refreshing to trust my AH is a good person, trust that he wants to get better, and trust that he is a capable and worthy human being. We have worked our programs in unison and it has brought us closer together, not apart. I forgive him for his past mistakes and only then can you truly move forward.

minnie

I agree that many people live with unacceptable behaviour, until they either learn to live with it or leave. You have done neither, it seems, and appear to want to hang onto the bitterness come what may. I am sorry to hear that you have the worst of both worlds. I guess the way that you show your husband that you don't condone his behaviour is through your hatred and keeping him on a leash. That's your choice (and his) and I would never take that choice away from you. I am just sorry that you haven't found a more peaceful path.

My al-anon thinking has gone off track? Hmm, think we must have been following a different programme.

Magichappens

Ok everybody, Dax has a right to her opinion. If you want what she has, do what she does. If not, don't. This thread isn't about her, though it seems to have become so. It's about Girlfriend and her misgivings about her group. Now everybody breath. Hugs, Magic

nocellphone

Al-Anon's Eleventh Tradition states, in part, that "We need guard with special care the anonymity of all AA members."

If an Al-Anon member makes the decision to break that Tradition inside a meeting, that's their prerogative. The harm that this kind of behavior can cause is apparent from the sharings here.

I know of one Al-Anon meeting where, if you so much as mentioned the alcoholic in your life (your "qualifier"), you had to put a quarter in a basket. That's what they chose to do to remind themselves to keep the focus on themselves. I have no opinion on that particular group's habit, but I don't know of any other group that practices this.

My understanding is that AA and Al-Anon teach and promote self-honesty, and that not everyone gets it, or at least not at the same time. I had to learn what was my business and what wasn't, knowing that the truth comes to the surface in everyone's life exactly at the moment it's supposed to, without me urging things along.

WARNING: SARCASM TO FOLLOW...

Alcoholics lie??? The hell you say!!!

The spouses of alcoholics believe these lies??? Why, that's unheard of!!!

Seriously, I knew what was a lie and what was the truth every time, though I could never admit that to myself. When I finally put the focus on me, I became much more discerning and my life changed for the better. So did the lives of those around me, but not until they were ready to get honest themselves. I am not the honesty police for anyone but myself.




I'm sorry for those who've been hurt by the lies of the alcoholics in their lives, and I hope that they can find a healthy release for all that anger. After all, holding a resentment is like taking poison and wating for the other person to die...

Doug

The program doesn't promote dishonesty, or half truths.

Because some "A's" both male and female choose to use it as such doesn't make it the program way.

It is our choice, up to us what to do with our recovery. Just like everything else. And there is no way to make anybody do anything, or act anyway if they choose not to.

For every program cheater you show me, I'll show you one who doesn't.
For every program liar you show me, I'll show you one who doesn't.
For every program drifter you show me, I'll show you one who has been at it solid for 15 years, and wouldn't have their life any other way.
For every "bad" person in recovery you show me, I'll show you two "good" ones.

Some in real life, some right here on these very forums. And when I say program, I mean all 4. AA, NA, Al-Anon, and Nar-Anon.

Everything can be abused. Everything.

How folks use the program and thier recovery is thier choice. Just like how we deal with those folks, and live our lives is our choice.

journeygal

Great response Doug!

Gabe

I whole heartedly agree.

minnie

Nice one, Doug.

And Dax - I guess i need to work on Live and Let Live.

Sorry, Girlfriend, that this thread got diverted away from your question. I think you can probably tell that the answer is not cut and dried!

Take care

Love

Minnie
xxx

zoe

Harleygirl, if you are haveing a problem with AA or Alanon I would like to suggest that you go to a site called smart recovery. I found the link at the top of this page and checked it out myself. I personally am having a hard time getting into alanon. I have gone to some meetings and don't seem to be getting much out of it. The site I checked out today is geared more towards a couple working together instead of apart. I plan to do more reading before I jump into it. My husband is not receptive to AA so I have begun to look for different avenues. While I did learn from alanon that I need to take care of me I don't agree with the concept of labeling people or detaching oneself from another to achieve a healthy relationship. I also do not believe in ignoring what is happening.
Zoe

Gabe

Whoa, back up the Soul Train.
I don't think the Alanon program is about ignoring what is happening...just my opinion.
It's about letting go of what is beyond your control, that being the addiction of a loved one.
As for labeling people, well people do that.
It's not what Alanon suggests.
Again, just my opinion.

prodigal

NOBODY is attempting to be hurtful or in denial here. Everyone and I mean EVERYONE is entitled to their opinion. I think all of us can agree to disagree if we feel we must with respect to one another. I feel this thread is taking on the tone of disrespect. One other individual that I know of has done this. I genuinely don't feel it is done intentionally; however, all of us are entitled to state our beliefs here. Nobody is an expert on any program or meetings, since some are beneficial and some are not.
I felt I had to put in my two cents here. Debate is a healthy thing, but this sounds as if it's becoming a bit too personal. If a program doesn't work for you and you think it stinks, fine. If it works for you, fine.

I don't think this board is here to be an open forum for debate.

JessicaNAJ

I'm sorry your post seemed to take on a life of it's own.....

For what it's worth, I wanted to put in my two cents.

AA, Al-Anon, NA, Nar-Anon - they all work if you work it. It's up to the individual what is gotten out of each meeting.

There is a sense of confidentiality at these meetings. What is said between those walls should stay there. Like everyone else, we need someone to confide in. In the defense of someone I've never met, I have to say that maybe this persons sponsor was helping him. You only heard part of the conversation (I think its fair to say that). There is no telling what was said while that meeting was taking place. Everyone has to heal at their pace.

I don't think its your place to tell these ladies what you heard. You have your own situation to worry about. Don't take on the responsibilities of their life too. Work on yourself. I understand you wanting to "pull the wool off of their eyes" so to speak, but that is something they have to do for themselves. AND I don't think that your being dishonest. My understanding of Al-Anon is that YOU and your recovery are the focal point.

I agree with you on the deception part. After dealing with my AH and years of him lying, I wouldn't want additional influences either.

I don't like deceipt anymore than the next guy. But you are attending Al-Anon to help you. To make you better. If this group is not helping or seems to be unhealthy for you for any reason, I suggest you find a different meeting if possible. I also suggest talking to him about you being uncomfortable. It is his choice then, whether or not he continues attending that particular group meeting. You have a choice and so does he. That doesn't mean you have to accept his choice. But you cannot force him to change it either.

I don't know if anything I said made sense.
I felt I had to say something.... Keep focusing on you. You and your happiness is what matters. If that means finding another meeting, then find another meeting. It's just like a doctor or counseling, if you go to one you don't like, you find another one.

abtchonamission

I've had a similar experience, only with my addict in NA. He went back on the methadone clinic. His sponsor knew, his employees knew, and they all kept it to themselves. I was hurt when I found out about it. I was hurt when I found out that I was the only one he was hiding it from. I was hurt when it hit me that everyone else knew, and hadn't said anything to me. But, that was also before I knew the whole story. I hadn't heard yet that all of those people who knew, including the sponsor AND Mike's counselor were urging him to tell me. Yes, they had agreed not to tell on him, but they were giving him a chance to be honest on his own. They kept telling him that he should tell me the truth, that I'd been nothing but supportive of him, and that they all felt I would support him in this. He was afraid that he'd disappointed me, or that I'd be angry. He didn't disappoint me by getting the help that he felt he needed. He disappointed me by not trusting me to understand, by doubting that I would support him, and by lying to me - which is the foundation of my trust in him. Instead of telling me upfront, or telling me before he was caught, it stayed a secret until he DID get caught. He learned a lesson. He also learned that he is not always in the position to make an impartial judgment. His own fears kept him from telling me something that would not have been an issue without the lie. But, at first, to me, it appeared that there was dishonesty with the sponsor and counselor, who both are active in NA and both knew me personally. Appearances are not always what they seem. In my situation, these people were trying to help him learn that HE has to be honest with himself, and with those he cares about. They were not trying to keep his secrets, they were trying to help him understand that HE needed to be the one who told me the truth, that it was his responsibility, and that he was going to regret lying eventually. And he did. He can handle me being angry, it got so common during his active addiction. He CAN'T, however, stand it when I'm simply disappointed and disillusioned with him...so he learned the lesson the hard way.
No answers here. Just another perspective.

dax

ZOE- You said it so much better than I. It is the each going their seperate way[programs] that I find so damanging to a marriage.. The period he was cheating, I was doing my own things- endurance horseback riding and having fun with many friends and neigborsl. None of the neighbors knew my husband- he was gone to work or at meeting all the time.. It was fine with him but I felt sad. We rarely saw each other or went out to eat- he had already eaten and talked himself out with his home group. Once I insisted he cut down on his meetings a strange thing happened- He was actually talking to me. We do a lot more things together now. And he has golfing buddies as well as AA friends.
Well I am out of here for the day- riding in the rodeo parade tomarrow. Magic- I am glad the pig is back.If all program people where like you, life would be a lot better. dax

wraybear

My AH's AA sponsor is always promoting honesty. There have been things my H has told me and he has said "my sponsor thought it was a good idea I talk to you about this." So, I think it is VERY important for the people within the program to promote honesty. But, it is up to each individual to follow through. Like, my H's sponsor would never call me to tell me the "truth," but he would encourage my H to tell the truth. I don't think anyone else should get involved in telling someone else's truth.

What you CAN do for this other person is to pray for them and their spouse - then you will know you have done something and can feel good about that.

Take care.

Daffodil

I have read: honestly is when I am honest with you.

Integrity is my being honest with me.

Now on to the discussion at hand. I am so honored to be a part of a group of people who are serious about recovery. I suffer from the effects of the family disease of alcoholism. Other peoples drinking effects me and my behavior. I needed new tools in order to live happy, joyous and free. I never learned what was my business and what wasn't growing up. I only got the message that I was responsible for the family and it's members.

Today Al-Anon has given me new tools that replaced the old ones that didn't ever work for me. My job is to keep the focus on me and my recovery. I have a Higher Power that keeps His eye on the alcoholics in my life as well as me. I realize the alcoholics are doing the best they can with the light they have to see by. At this point in time I have no one in a recovery program in my family. I can only pray that one day they will find a program that works for them. I have to stay out of that part of their lives and live my own or I would have nothing to give them when we are together but bitterness, anger, and a person filled with resentments.

I must forever keep watch over me and my recovery simply because I can drop the program as quickly as any one given the right circumstances. My job is not to judge anyone or their behavior. It is to listen for the message of experience, strength, and hope everyone and anyone at a meeting can give me that will aid in my growth and recovey. Those sharing at a meeting or here at SR not only point out what my options are but what they are not, usually in a way I can really hear. For one on one meetings I have the most loving, kind, and honest sponsor who guides me through the steps and teaches me the principals of the Al-Anon program. I leave the AA program to those who attend AA meetings.

I didn't learn it all at once, nor do I understand (to this day) how it works. If I did I would do my best to fix it and make it better. IT WORKS IN SPITE of me and my best thinking. The wonderful part is; I am told to just keep coming back.

Harleygirl, please keep coming back. Take what you can USE of the Al-Anon program and SR and leave the rest. It will come to you one day at a time.

Love and prayers from one who cares.