Please help me make sense of this.
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Please help me make sense of this.
Brief overview: AH and I have been together 13 years, have a 10 year old son, I finally set my boundary that my son and I can’t live with an active alcoholic as AH’s drinking has worsened. I just recently told my family and friends who were in the dark about every bit of it. AH has reluctantly agreed to move out as I have asked for a separation, and he’s finally seen that I’m not backing down this time.
Today he talked to a friend of ours with a place for rent, and will likely begin moving within the next couple of weeks. He came back home and immediately went to the bedroom to take a nap. When he woke up several hours later he blew up at me, saying how dare I kick him out of the home that he singlehandedly keeps up because I don’t like alcohol? Why should HE have to disrupt his entire life because I don’t like him drinking? He continues to maintain that he is doing nothing wrong and that I’m making him out to be the bad guy, and that I act like I’m blameless in the whole thing. He told me again (unprovoked; I stayed as quiet as I could) that he had no intention of giving up drinking just because I wanted him to; he says there is nothing at all wrong with how he drinks and he’s not changing it for anyone. I just told him that is his choice, just like my choice is to not live with it. Then he started saying things like, “I’m not the kind of guy who can live across town from his son, I can’t stand the fact that my son’s not going to be living with me. But I’ve lived alone before so I’ll be just fine. I’m not sure about you though. You don’t have any clue how good you have it.”
I dont even recognize him anymore. I guess I’m still trying to process the fact that we are on two completely different wavelengths. I absolutely do not understand how he can say the things he does, and apparently he feels the same about me.
Just feeling completely knocked off balance.
Today he talked to a friend of ours with a place for rent, and will likely begin moving within the next couple of weeks. He came back home and immediately went to the bedroom to take a nap. When he woke up several hours later he blew up at me, saying how dare I kick him out of the home that he singlehandedly keeps up because I don’t like alcohol? Why should HE have to disrupt his entire life because I don’t like him drinking? He continues to maintain that he is doing nothing wrong and that I’m making him out to be the bad guy, and that I act like I’m blameless in the whole thing. He told me again (unprovoked; I stayed as quiet as I could) that he had no intention of giving up drinking just because I wanted him to; he says there is nothing at all wrong with how he drinks and he’s not changing it for anyone. I just told him that is his choice, just like my choice is to not live with it. Then he started saying things like, “I’m not the kind of guy who can live across town from his son, I can’t stand the fact that my son’s not going to be living with me. But I’ve lived alone before so I’ll be just fine. I’m not sure about you though. You don’t have any clue how good you have it.”
I dont even recognize him anymore. I guess I’m still trying to process the fact that we are on two completely different wavelengths. I absolutely do not understand how he can say the things he does, and apparently he feels the same about me.
Just feeling completely knocked off balance.
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Originally Posted by saudade8277 
Brief overview: AH and I have been together 13 years, have a 10 year old son, I finally set my boundary that my son and I can’t live with an active alcoholic as AH’s drinking has worsened. I just recently told my family and friends who were in the dark about every bit of it. AH has reluctantly agreed to move out as I have asked for a separation, and he’s finally seen that I’m not backing down this time.
Today he talked to a friend of ours with a place for rent, and will likely begin moving within the next couple of weeks
Today he talked to a friend of ours with a place for rent, and will likely begin moving within the next couple of weeks
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saudade.....I hope you will do some study ing and learning about alcoholism....as this sounds pretty typical of a lot of alcoholics.
Become informed and educated....not shocked and off-balance.
Knowledge is power.
Of course, you two are on different pages.....he sees alcohol as the solution/you see alcohol as the problem.
From what you share...it is lawyer-up time. Know his rights as well as your own. I say this because, it sounds like this is a gentelmans agreement...rather than a legal one with signed separation papers....?
I am giving you the following link to a website that is educational in nature...to help organize thoughts...to save time, when one does see t heir own lawyer....
It is organized by state....
www.womansdivorce.com
Become informed and educated....not shocked and off-balance.
Knowledge is power.
Of course, you two are on different pages.....he sees alcohol as the solution/you see alcohol as the problem.
From what you share...it is lawyer-up time. Know his rights as well as your own. I say this because, it sounds like this is a gentelmans agreement...rather than a legal one with signed separation papers....?
I am giving you the following link to a website that is educational in nature...to help organize thoughts...to save time, when one does see t heir own lawyer....
It is organized by state....
www.womansdivorce.com
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saying how dare I kick him out of the home that he singlehandedly keeps up because I don’t like alcohol? Why should HE have to disrupt his entire life because I don’t like him drinking? He continues to maintain that he is doing nothing wrong and that I’m making him out to be the bad guy, and that I act like I’m blameless in the whole thing. He told me again (unprovoked; I stayed as quiet as I could) that he had no intention of giving up drinking just because I wanted him to; he says there is nothing at all wrong with how he drinks and he’s not changing it for anyone.
Does your husband have the script my husband has? These EXACT words are what I have heard. Typical alkie.
Does your husband have the script my husband has? These EXACT words are what I have heard. Typical alkie.
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ok - by you enforcing boundaries around living with someone who drinks (to the degree that HE does) you have pulled his covers. you have exposed the drinking PROBLEM.
since that is intolerable to HIM, and because his "precious" is now threatened, he has to change the spin and make this all your fault. and to make it sound as if he's your oxygen tank and YOU could not possibly survive on this planet for three minutes without him. that's the smoke and mirrors part - deflect, redirect, accuse.
he says he can't be the guy that lives across town from his kid BUT he absolutely will NOT quit drinking. he thereby admits that he does know what he would need to do in order to be the dad that lives WITH his son, he is simply unwilling to do so.
not for you. not for the kid. not even for his own pride.
he is also trying to call your bluff. by reminding you of ALL he does FOR you and how weak and helpless you are without him, you will simply cave and concede.
addicts hate to be told NO. or to have it pointed out in any way that their drinking is NOT ok and IS having a negative, detrimental impact on others.
I DID NOTHING WRONG is their battle cry.
since that is intolerable to HIM, and because his "precious" is now threatened, he has to change the spin and make this all your fault. and to make it sound as if he's your oxygen tank and YOU could not possibly survive on this planet for three minutes without him. that's the smoke and mirrors part - deflect, redirect, accuse.
he says he can't be the guy that lives across town from his kid BUT he absolutely will NOT quit drinking. he thereby admits that he does know what he would need to do in order to be the dad that lives WITH his son, he is simply unwilling to do so.
not for you. not for the kid. not even for his own pride.
he is also trying to call your bluff. by reminding you of ALL he does FOR you and how weak and helpless you are without him, you will simply cave and concede.
addicts hate to be told NO. or to have it pointed out in any way that their drinking is NOT ok and IS having a negative, detrimental impact on others.
I DID NOTHING WRONG is their battle cry.
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Originally Posted by saudade8277
Just feeling completely knocked off balance.
My AXH did the same things and said the same stuff when we were separating. He could swing between sad and repentant to angry and mean, then back again in the drop of a hat. He also wanted me to doubt myself and my ability to take care of paying my own bills etc. Keeping me scared and anxious had worked for years. My fears had kept me stuck being his enabler for far too long. Even when I stopped actively enabling, he was OK with it because I was still existing with in his world. But when I got sick and tired of being sick and tired, when I stopped accepting unacceptable behavior, when learned to erect and enforce boundaries... that put HIM "off balance". As I gained stability he got more and more wobbly. He couldn't control me anymore, and he sure as heck couldn't control himself when it came to alcohol. His world changed when I changed and it must have been terrifying for him. Scared people often act out inappropriately.
I know none of that really helps. It still sucks when the man you love has turned into a person you can't possibly understand. I've been there. It was awful, you really do have my empathy.
Stay strong, you are making the right decisions. *hugs*
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Thanks for the link, dandylion. I skimmed over it and am planning to do some more in depth reading in a little while. It is a “gentlemen’s agreement” separation right now, and I guess I do need to start looking into legalities. Honestly, I was being very idealistic and hoping that the actual act of separation would be enough to jolt AH into seeing how bad his addiction has gotten. (I know, I know. Even typing it out makes me feel very naive!) I know it’s my denial trying to kick up again... AH has been acting very reasonable and more like his old self the last few days. I find when he’s doing that, somehow I feel like I’ll be able to have more productive conversations with him, that he will see where I’m coming from, and that we might be able to find some type of common ground. I’ve got to get it through my head that that is not going to be the case.
Dazed, I’m so sorry to hear that you’re going through the same thing. I think there just be a secret script passed around, lol. My AH also does a lot of mirroring (I think that’s the right term).... where basically everything he says I do is really what he’s been doing. I have my faults, I KNOW I’m not perfect... but it just astounds me when he talks about how selfish I am, or how I don’t ever consider how he’s feeling, how things are all about me. And he means it!!
Dazed, I’m so sorry to hear that you’re going through the same thing. I think there just be a secret script passed around, lol. My AH also does a lot of mirroring (I think that’s the right term).... where basically everything he says I do is really what he’s been doing. I have my faults, I KNOW I’m not perfect... but it just astounds me when he talks about how selfish I am, or how I don’t ever consider how he’s feeling, how things are all about me. And he means it!!
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Originally Posted by saudade8277
Thanks for the link, dandylion. I skimmed over it and am planning to do some more in depth reading in a little while. It is a “gentlemen’s agreement” separation right now, and I guess I do need to start looking into legalities. Honestly, I was being very idealistic and hoping that the actual act of separation would be enough to jolt AH into seeing how bad his addiction has gotten. (I know, I know. Even typing it out makes me feel very naive!) I know it’s my denial trying to kick up again... AH has been acting very reasonable and more like his old self the last few days. I find when he’s doing that, somehow I feel like I’ll be able to have more productive conversations with him, that he will see where I’m coming from, and that we might be able to find some type of common ground. I’ve got to get it through my head that that is not going to be the case.
Dazed, I’m so sorry to hear that you’re going through the same thing. I think there just be a secret script passed around, lol. My AH also does a lot of mirroring (I think that’s the right term).... where basically everything he says I do is really what he’s been doing. I have my faults, I KNOW I’m not perfect... but it just astounds me when he talks about how selfish I am, or how I don’t ever consider how he’s feeling, how things are all about me. And he means it!!
Dazed, I’m so sorry to hear that you’re going through the same thing. I think there just be a secret script passed around, lol. My AH also does a lot of mirroring (I think that’s the right term).... where basically everything he says I do is really what he’s been doing. I have my faults, I KNOW I’m not perfect... but it just astounds me when he talks about how selfish I am, or how I don’t ever consider how he’s feeling, how things are all about me. And he means it!!
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saudade.....the two biggest tools...defense mechanisms....that the alcoholics use is Denial and Projection....
Of course, projection enables them to shine the light on you...and take the focus off of them. they are very cunning in knowing what your hot buttons are and, where you are the most vulnerable...and, that is where they get you. A well delivered insult or criticism can send the non-alcoholic partner into a tailspin....
This is the point where it is helpful to know...KNOW...that it is their world being seen through the alcoholism filter.....that---it is not about you...it is all about them trying to protect their drinking.
Remember that thinking of never having another drink, to the addicted alcoholic feels the same as a death sentence. At his point, he has to drink to even feel "normal"!
Of course he believes it...it is the "alcoholic voice" talking to him, in his own head. The alcoholic has to lie to themselves.... they have to tell themselves that it is other people that are wrong....otherwise, they would have to take responsibility ...and quit drinking! What alcoholic wants to do that...…?
You will need to detach and not take the things he says seriously---in other words, don't believe him. I know they hurt to hear...because you are human...but, don't BELIEVE him.....
And, remember...when he is talking like a fool....don't JADE....
J...justify.....A..Argue…...D..Defend….E...explain .
It is usually a losing battle,for you. You will not get him to change his thinking.
"You don't have to go to every battle that you are invited to"....
Of course, projection enables them to shine the light on you...and take the focus off of them. they are very cunning in knowing what your hot buttons are and, where you are the most vulnerable...and, that is where they get you. A well delivered insult or criticism can send the non-alcoholic partner into a tailspin....
This is the point where it is helpful to know...KNOW...that it is their world being seen through the alcoholism filter.....that---it is not about you...it is all about them trying to protect their drinking.
Remember that thinking of never having another drink, to the addicted alcoholic feels the same as a death sentence. At his point, he has to drink to even feel "normal"!
Of course he believes it...it is the "alcoholic voice" talking to him, in his own head. The alcoholic has to lie to themselves.... they have to tell themselves that it is other people that are wrong....otherwise, they would have to take responsibility ...and quit drinking! What alcoholic wants to do that...…?
You will need to detach and not take the things he says seriously---in other words, don't believe him. I know they hurt to hear...because you are human...but, don't BELIEVE him.....
And, remember...when he is talking like a fool....don't JADE....
J...justify.....A..Argue…...D..Defend….E...explain .
It is usually a losing battle,for you. You will not get him to change his thinking.
"You don't have to go to every battle that you are invited to"....
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Originally Posted by dandylion
saudade.....the two biggest tools...defense mechanisms....that the alcoholics use is Denial and Projection....
Of course, projection enables them to shine the light on you...and take the focus off of them. they are very cunning in knowing what your hot buttons are and, where you are the most vulnerable...and, that is where they get you. A well delivered insult or criticism can send the non-alcoholic partner into a tailspin....
This is the point where it is helpful to know...KNOW...that it is their world being seen through the alcoholism filter.....that---it is not about you...it is all about them trying to protect their drinking.
Remember that thinking of never having another drink, to the addicted alcoholic feels the same as a death sentence. At his point, he has to drink to even feel "normal"!
Of course he believes it...it is the "alcoholic voice" talking to him, in his own head. The alcoholic has to lie to themselves.... they have to tell themselves that it is other people that are wrong....otherwise, they would have to take responsibility ...and quit drinking! What alcoholic wants to do that...…?
You will need to detach and not take the things he says seriously---in other words, don't believe him. I know they hurt to hear...because you are human...but, don't BELIEVE him.....
And, remember...when he is talking like a fool....don't JADE....
J...justify.....A..Argue…...D..Defend….E...explain .
It is usually a losing battle,for you. You will not get him to change his thinking.
"You don't have to go to every battle that you are invited to"....
Of course, projection enables them to shine the light on you...and take the focus off of them. they are very cunning in knowing what your hot buttons are and, where you are the most vulnerable...and, that is where they get you. A well delivered insult or criticism can send the non-alcoholic partner into a tailspin....
This is the point where it is helpful to know...KNOW...that it is their world being seen through the alcoholism filter.....that---it is not about you...it is all about them trying to protect their drinking.
Remember that thinking of never having another drink, to the addicted alcoholic feels the same as a death sentence. At his point, he has to drink to even feel "normal"!
Of course he believes it...it is the "alcoholic voice" talking to him, in his own head. The alcoholic has to lie to themselves.... they have to tell themselves that it is other people that are wrong....otherwise, they would have to take responsibility ...and quit drinking! What alcoholic wants to do that...…?
You will need to detach and not take the things he says seriously---in other words, don't believe him. I know they hurt to hear...because you are human...but, don't BELIEVE him.....
And, remember...when he is talking like a fool....don't JADE....
J...justify.....A..Argue…...D..Defend….E...explain .
It is usually a losing battle,for you. You will not get him to change his thinking.
"You don't have to go to every battle that you are invited to"....
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Anvil - those defective keyboards really are something, huh? (It DEFINITELY wasn’t operator error 
) I thought it was hilarious where I accidentally hit send... like you said, that part was pretty straightforward, lol!
I am fortunate enough that I am fully capable of supporting myself and my son without any assistance from AH... that I feel is another area where what he says is actually more applicable to his situation than mine. He is only working part time right now, has not looked for a full time job, and the reality is that moving out is going to be a very big financial struggle for him. I absolutely hate that... but I keep reminding myself that he is perfectly capable of supporting himself, these have all been his choices and he has to face the consequences of those choices.
As I read back over what I’ve posted, it’s a lot clearer to me that this is all classic alcoholic behavior. I think I’ve got a lot more work to do within myself. When I am talking to him, and looking at that same face that I have loved so dearly for years, it’s been almost impossible for me to accept that he is as deep in his addiction as he actually is. I just keep seeing my best friend, my son’s father, the guy who has been through thick and thin with me. I keep expecting him to be the same person he was before the addiction really sank it’s teeth in. I’ve got to learn that I can’t do that anymore.
) I thought it was hilarious where I accidentally hit send... like you said, that part was pretty straightforward, lol! I am fortunate enough that I am fully capable of supporting myself and my son without any assistance from AH... that I feel is another area where what he says is actually more applicable to his situation than mine. He is only working part time right now, has not looked for a full time job, and the reality is that moving out is going to be a very big financial struggle for him. I absolutely hate that... but I keep reminding myself that he is perfectly capable of supporting himself, these have all been his choices and he has to face the consequences of those choices.
As I read back over what I’ve posted, it’s a lot clearer to me that this is all classic alcoholic behavior. I think I’ve got a lot more work to do within myself. When I am talking to him, and looking at that same face that I have loved so dearly for years, it’s been almost impossible for me to accept that he is as deep in his addiction as he actually is. I just keep seeing my best friend, my son’s father, the guy who has been through thick and thin with me. I keep expecting him to be the same person he was before the addiction really sank it’s teeth in. I’ve got to learn that I can’t do that anymore.
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Originally Posted by saudade8277
Anvil - those defective keyboards really are something, huh? (It DEFINITELY wasn’t operator error ) I thought it was hilarious where I accidentally hit send... like you said, that part was pretty straightforward, lol!
I am fortunate enough that I am fully capable of supporting myself and my son without any assistance from AH... that I feel is another area where what he says is actually more applicable to his situation than mine. He is only working part time right now, has not looked for a full time job, and the reality is that moving out is going to be a very big financial struggle for him. I absolutely hate that... but I keep reminding myself that he is perfectly capable of supporting himself, these have all been his choices and he has to face the consequences of those choices.
As I read back over what I’ve posted, it’s a lot clearer to me that this is all classic alcoholic behavior. I think I’ve got a lot more work to do within myself. When I am talking to him, and looking at that same face that I have loved so dearly for years, it’s been almost impossible for me to accept that he is as deep in his addiction as he actually is. I just keep seeing my best friend, my son’s father, the guy who has been through thick and thin with me. I keep expecting him to be the same person he was before the addiction really sank it’s teeth in. I’ve got to learn that I can’t do that anymore.
) I thought it was hilarious where I accidentally hit send... like you said, that part was pretty straightforward, lol!I am fortunate enough that I am fully capable of supporting myself and my son without any assistance from AH... that I feel is another area where what he says is actually more applicable to his situation than mine. He is only working part time right now, has not looked for a full time job, and the reality is that moving out is going to be a very big financial struggle for him. I absolutely hate that... but I keep reminding myself that he is perfectly capable of supporting himself, these have all been his choices and he has to face the consequences of those choices.
As I read back over what I’ve posted, it’s a lot clearer to me that this is all classic alcoholic behavior. I think I’ve got a lot more work to do within myself. When I am talking to him, and looking at that same face that I have loved so dearly for years, it’s been almost impossible for me to accept that he is as deep in his addiction as he actually is. I just keep seeing my best friend, my son’s father, the guy who has been through thick and thin with me. I keep expecting him to be the same person he was before the addiction really sank it’s teeth in. I’ve got to learn that I can’t do that anymore.
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saudade..….y es, the face may look the same...or, at least very similar to the face you remember from long ago...but, if you could see the Brain...the brain is not at all, the same.....There have been many changes, accumulating ,over the years, in response to the alcohol.....
There are actual physiological changes that underly the alcoholic behaviors....that can actually explain the behaviors.....
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q...scan&FORM=IGRE
The above link shows some physical changes.
There are real physiological changes in how the brain works, as well.....
There are actual physiological changes that underly the alcoholic behaviors....that can actually explain the behaviors.....
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q...scan&FORM=IGRE
The above link shows some physical changes.
There are real physiological changes in how the brain works, as well.....
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Hi saudade, I think I've heard it described as invasion of the body snatchers and that's probably pretty accurate. I think that may be one of the things that makes this so hard.
Alcoholism creeps up and suddenly (or what seems sudden) this person you knew and loved is moving out because they would have to give up alcohol.. huh?
It seems so senseless, but such is addiction.
I'm sorry he has reached this point, I am glad you see the writing on the wall and are taking steps to protect yourself.
Alcoholism creeps up and suddenly (or what seems sudden) this person you knew and loved is moving out because they would have to give up alcohol.. huh?
It seems so senseless, but such is addiction.
I'm sorry he has reached this point, I am glad you see the writing on the wall and are taking steps to protect yourself.
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He seems to be in a strong state of denial, even for an A. I went back to your original post to see how bad he is, and it's bad. Screaming, withdrawing from the marriage, letting your son see him staggering, hiding alcohol. He's a long way down the path.
As for his thinking, my guess as a sober A is that he has internally minimised the extent of his drinking. Like, I have a beer when I get home and you want to break up our marriage about it? When you see it like that you understand why he's saying the things he does.
Sadly, he would need a period of sobriety to view the situation with a rational mind and he is desperately trying to defend his position.
I really feel for you because doing the right thing is terribly hard, and to have someone you still love turn on you so they can keep drinking must be so hard.
The chances of him giving up are better with you leaving, in my opinion. At the moment he's pushing back against you, but once he's on his own able to drink without resistance hopefully he'll gain some perspective.
As for his thinking, my guess as a sober A is that he has internally minimised the extent of his drinking. Like, I have a beer when I get home and you want to break up our marriage about it? When you see it like that you understand why he's saying the things he does.
Sadly, he would need a period of sobriety to view the situation with a rational mind and he is desperately trying to defend his position.
I really feel for you because doing the right thing is terribly hard, and to have someone you still love turn on you so they can keep drinking must be so hard.
The chances of him giving up are better with you leaving, in my opinion. At the moment he's pushing back against you, but once he's on his own able to drink without resistance hopefully he'll gain some perspective.
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Hey trail! Yes.... to keep my Body Snatchers analogy going.. I have to remember I’m living with a pod person now. I’m discovering exactly how hard that is. I’m starting to notice a pattern, and that helps because I’m becoming more aware of it - I think that’s going to help me beat back my own denial. When his drinking calms down to 2-4 daily, and he’s not screaming or acting like a pod person (lol), my vigilance decreases. I don’t delude myself anymore that his slow-down will be permanent, but at the same time I use it as a breather. I don’t read through these forums as much, I don’t read as much about codependency and alcoholism.. my defenses go down. Then when the pod person returns, I’m not as guarded against him and I get knocked down again. I think recognizing that is the first step in me fixing it. Hopefully!!!
FeelingGreat, I think your statement is spot on and I thank you so much for it. That is exactly how he acts - like I am an over-reactive drama queen who can’t stand the fact that he drinks just a couple of beers. He has said on so many different occasions that he shouldn’t have to suffer because I have an abnormal reaction to alcohol. I think that deep down, he knows this is BS, because I have asked him in the past if he had a daughter, would he want her in a relationship like ours? He has never attempted to answer that question and always changes the subject back to how I am not supportive of him. I think you are absolutely right - once he is living alone, and able to drink without me “harping” on him... there is also no one left to blame but himself, and I hope he will finally be forced to look at it that way because I desperately want to try to save our marriage. And the only way our marriage has a chance at surviving is if he decides that he wants to quit drinking - for himself, not for me or anyone else. He has every right to choose whatever he wants, and I am going to have to dig deep and prepare myself for whatever choice he makes. And I’ve got to learn to guard myself better.
FeelingGreat, I think your statement is spot on and I thank you so much for it. That is exactly how he acts - like I am an over-reactive drama queen who can’t stand the fact that he drinks just a couple of beers. He has said on so many different occasions that he shouldn’t have to suffer because I have an abnormal reaction to alcohol. I think that deep down, he knows this is BS, because I have asked him in the past if he had a daughter, would he want her in a relationship like ours? He has never attempted to answer that question and always changes the subject back to how I am not supportive of him. I think you are absolutely right - once he is living alone, and able to drink without me “harping” on him... there is also no one left to blame but himself, and I hope he will finally be forced to look at it that way because I desperately want to try to save our marriage. And the only way our marriage has a chance at surviving is if he decides that he wants to quit drinking - for himself, not for me or anyone else. He has every right to choose whatever he wants, and I am going to have to dig deep and prepare myself for whatever choice he makes. And I’ve got to learn to guard myself better.
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