Mango212

How I relate to narcissism is in it being so much more than vanity, especially with covert narcissism.

There is a lack of empathy, guilt and remorse that becomes easier to see - even through unmeant apologies- once we start seeing beyond the mask.

thequest

Oh yeah, as does this song make me think of certain people.

Stayingsassy

I always believed I had BPD, sometimes the emotions I had that I couldn’t control fit the criteria exactly. I tortured my husband with my paranoia. I was always eloquent and able to argue as well so it made all my interactions with him deeply manipulative.

Then I got sober. With the ability to rationally consider my own thoughts and emotions, I no longer believe I have this disorder.

I wonder how many heavy drinkers have unbalanced brain chemicals and get misdiagnosed: that it’s not actually npd or bpd, but alcoholism.

I can think of more than one example in our social circle.

trailmix

I believe it SS! The border between borderline and NPD and all those cluster Bs is probably littered with vodka bottles.

That is why it is so important for people to be sober for some time before accepting any mental health diagnosis I think and it is the norm for responsible mental health care providers I would hope.

Stayingsassy

Absolutely. I believe that alcoholism “causes” some personality disorders, and in some cases sobriety will cure it or at least mediate it. I also think that the psychiatric community does NOT pay enough mind or intuition to alcoholism and the specific brand of behaviors it causes. I see it so very, very clearly in friends of ours whose drinking has crossed that line.

FireSprite

She's been talking a lot more in the last 5-6 months since starting individual therapy & is starting to connect this kind of behavior with his manipulation. She explained it to me like this - every time she thought he was showing genuine interest in her wants & needs, it was because he wanted something from her in return & was clearing the way for that future request. Every. Time.

He has previously been diagnosed as being on the spectrum of mental illness, but it's all very cloudy since he displays the behaviors he wants anyone to see when he wants them to - very chameleon like - and she wasn't involved in that process in ANY way so it's all hearsay for what HE says they have recommended for him. She has no way of verifying or knowing anything - just his words.

Knowing this, I chalked his narc-like behaviors up to being part of that (we all know there's a lot of bleeding over with symptoms across this spectrum which is part of what makes proper diagnosis so difficult to begin with) but now that I'm listening to her outline patterns & cycles that go back 25+ yrs.... it just seems like a much more complicated & potentially more dangerous dysfunction than I realized.

This is her for sure - she's in her 40's now & they've been together since she was 15. Outside of her childhood abusers, she's never been in any kind of relationship with any other man.


Yep, yep, yep..... still ringing alllll the bells. The sexual stuff she's been sharing has been a bit uncomfortable for me - & I'm as open minded as a person comes. Thing is, there's a difference between 2 people consenting to whatever they enjoy together vs. the one-sided, controlling & abusive way he's been using sex as a weapon & an outlet for his manic episodes.


Ding, ding, ding!!! The incident that brought all of this to a head happened around a group of us & the difference this time is that when he started his abuse about it later, she heard the alarm bells in her head (thanks to her own work in therapy), reached out to others to verify what he was saying instead of accepting it & shaming herself privately. I have had to remind her at least 10x in the last few weeks that this thing he is saying did not happen, you did not do this thing, you are not this person he is making you out to be... over & over & over because she keeps defaulting back to the old programming that says she is wrong/bad.

He's ANGRY that she is talking. It's her fault for telling people & if she hadn't done that everything would be fine, he could let things settle & then pick the pieces up again & carry on. She's not letting that happen & she has support so he's losing control & not at ALL ok with that. I'm not sure how far he's willing to go or how much more pressure she can manage.

We text daily & I've put her in touch with other friends that have more in common with her childhood damage so that I can step away from the situation. (his latest drama indirectly attacks/involves my family & it would be very easy to take it all personally... I do not want to damage our friendship if at all possible.)


Ok, so I use this one all the time when I'm trying to explain how we all have a few narcissistic qualities & that in a healthy individual, we even need a little of that for our egos to feed the desire to strive for more/better/achieve/etc.

Like me, I tell her -our running joke is that we go out on Saturday nights because of how long it takes me to get ready....... I spend almost as long getting ready as I do actually out having fun & that's hard on a Friday when I have to rush home from a long work day first, lol .... but I don't care, that's me & my vanity & one of the few ways I let my ego/narcissism out to play.

AutumnMama

My husband has a lot of narcissistic traits, but I've always been hesitant to label him with NPD. He appears to care about people, but as he's explained to me before... he only does nice things for people to get them to like him, or get the rush of someone needing him/looking up to him. There's a lot of paranoia as well. And after his stint in the hospital from almost drinking himself to death, he really struggled with the idea that he is not perfect. (I laughed out loud when he told me that, I thought he was joking, then I realized... no, he really thought he was perfect).

He seems to be such a conglomeration of so many different 'disorders' that I have come to just assume it's mostly from the alcohol. How do you even begin to untangle that? And does it really matter? I know he has stopped drinking, but I think he may have picked up something else. But he seems like a different person week to week. It used to be exhausting, but I've succeeded in pulling most of my emotions out it. I have reached a place in myself where I am just sort of observing him now. Like a science project. Is that detachment? haha

trailmix

Yes lol

Wamama48

Or the old country song by Mac Davis.......
Oh Lord it's hard to be humble,
When you're perfect in every way,
I can't wait to look in the mirror,
Cause I get better looking each day...

hearthealth

There's freedom that comes when you're just watching them and not trying to change them. Their rock bottom never happens because they are always on the mountain top. IMO husband's boulders are always me complaining instead of me being thankful for all husband has to offer. By living my life I realize husband is not all that.

MindfulMan

I've known people with strong narcissistic behaviors that were non-drinkers, or very occasional drinkers, and rarely if ever to excess. The BPD people I've interacted with were all addicts of some sort. The latter is probably just sample bias.

Addiction can certainly make people exhibit BPD and other Cluster B behaviors, but I think it's oversimplifying to say that ALL such behaviors are a result of substance abuse. Many psychiatrists believe that native (ie, not substance related) Cluster B symptoms are organic, but that the medical treatment has not yet been discovered. There are differences in the way that people with personality disorders process information. There is a correlation between BPD and abuse (and also with Dissociative Disorder), but it could be that there is a biological component and abuse triggers a response that's more BPD. My observation is that BPD and NPD are similar, but in BPD the harm is directed inward, whereas in NPD it's outward.

Just my take.

trailmix

Yes, the narc I knew was not an addict, he drank, sometimes to excess but it was rare.

Mango212

My CPS case is a direct and indirect result of leaving FOO with narcissistic behaviors. As said on another thread, narcissists do not like being left.

One benefit I'm gaining through all of this is clarity of who my allies are. There are some long-time friends who are firmly in the narc camp and it's really good for me to be able to see this. With clarity, it's easier to move ahead with healing and gaining confidence.

dawnrising

This is word for word a description of AH ! I would dare to say maybe they aren’t grandiose normally but when you add alcohol I feel like it’s just a stage like “functioning Ah”

SmallButMighty

There is a website / social forum ( similar to this one) for friends and families that are dealing with personality disordered people in their lives.

For anyone who may be interested it is called: "Out of the Fog" . I don't know if it is against the rules here to post a link to that site so I have not, but it's the first thing that pops up when you google that phrase.

I learned a LOT from reading and posting there years ago when things went sideways with my XMIL... it didn't fix our relationship but it sure shone a different light on it. Knowledge really is power.

FireSprite

This is where *I'm* at with this topic - the human mind truly fascinates me but I also like knowing the face of the monster in the closet if at all possible. It converts my fear & ignorance into empowerment, even if it simply means setting better boundaries earlier on.

I really appreciate all the perspectives & resources.

Mango212

Hi FireSprite,

Thank you for this thread. Shining a light on these topics is indeed very powerful.

Sasha1972

I believe there's a subtype of narcissism called "vulnerable narcissism", in which the individual in question isn't necessarily grandiose and self-promoting, but instead understands him or herself to be deeply wounded in some way, and wants the world to be organized around his or her wounding. The narcissistic rage is triggered by perceived abandonment or minimization of his/her suffering. I think this type overlaps with alcoholic mindsets in the "terminal uniqueness" domain - I have been wounded so deeply by whatever that I have to drink, my alcohol-related behaviors should be excused or tolerated because I am suffering, and nobody understands how much I suffer.

Perhaps not surprisingly, my ex displayed a lot of those traits. He claims his mother (who was an alcoholic) abused him and so he suffers from, depending on the day of the week, PTSD, anxiety disorder, "attachment disruption", etc. I do not believe any of these have been formally diagnosed.

I knew his mother and she really was a piece of work (although I'm now doubting some of the more extreme claims he made about her behavior). Ex's whole personality was organized around his sense of himself as exceptionally wounded - his needs are always more pressing than anyone else's needs, he requires all kinds of special walking-on-eggshells consideration, no one can understand the depths of his pain, etc. That was his form of narcissistic supply, and when the supply line was cut (i.e. I moved out), the rage came on.

OpheliaKatz

Yup this was what happened to me too. It's hard to see abusive personalities if you don't know that abusers manipulate by acting hurt; and when they hurt you, and you complain about it, they tell everyone you try to talk to that you're a narcissist who tries to get attention by faking emotional hurt.

In fact, my ex reminded me of this so much, particularly when I tried to tell him that he was hurting my feelings (he would change the subject and make it about how I was hurting his feelings by drawing attention to myself without considering his feelings), that I started to keep all my feelings to myself. I also felt I had to talk to him very carefully, so as to not hurt his unpredictable feelings -- anything could have hurt his feelings: lipstick, music, laundry... anything. I started apologizing for being self-centered. "I'm sorry that I asked about the drugs... I understand that your physical symptoms are due to PTSD and not drugs... and that you know how to moderate your drug use. I'm sorry I was distrustful of you. I realize I know nothing about drugs, but you know more than me because you took them. I'm sorry I presume things -- it is probably because I am egotistical and/or controlling."

Anyone who disagreed with him was automatically "dangerous" and a "narcissist". I watched him systematically isolate a number of people he knew (but didn't like) through gossip. I thought, "well, maybe those people are as awful as he said they were... after all I wouldn't have married an awful man."

One day, it became impossible to ignore that my ears were ringing because he shouted in them. It became impossible to ignore that he was cheating. It became impossible to ignore that he liked to physically hurt me and say things like, "I was only curious about how far your finger could bend". There were little things... and then one day a stranger (and then two... and then three) told me that I was in an abusive relationship. Some of these people even blamed me for being in the relationship: "You're a push-over. You need to grow a spine. Don't you know he was doing something illegal?" That is when I realized... I wasn't the narcissist.

He has plenty of other victims now. People who are willing to listen to him blame everyone but himself for his predicament.

I have no idea if he's a covert narcissist or just a junkie... but no one will ever know unless he gets rid of the junk. However... I do not hesitate to call him psychotic.

Sorry for the novel.

Clover71