Covert/Introverted Narcissists?

Old 02-10-2019, 02:21 PM
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For all narcissists one thing is true, the void. The void where there should a person, a true personality, there isn't one.

Malignant narcissism is evil, in my opinion. It can't be cured, it can't be corrected. I think a lot of it may be due to upbringing and a lack of nurturing, some damage that is basically irreversible.

The narcissist needs you to fill that void, with your personality, your love your kindness your money your likes and dislikes. It will never be enough, there is not enough for them.

I think it's good to talk about the different ways narcissism can present itself, narcissist can be hard to spot, some are subtle but I think there are always signs.
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Old 02-11-2019, 10:41 AM
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I have an unofficial PhD in psychology with a major in Narcissism lol just kidding....my exah was more than likely a covert narc/bpd of some sort. Not an alcoholic in traditional sense...more like- I will live life my way if that includes drinking to excess and causing hell to others so be it, it's fun for me- an ultimate "my way or the highway" mentality ( I should have taken the highway long ago haha)

Key notes from my time in the field: haha-Lack of empathy, predatory/opportunistic/manipulative/victim mentality/socially charming/financially controlling yet grandiose in public,
full of false promises from the ideal life they project..very charming when you're on their side/providing something to them directly- attention/popularity/validation/sex etc

They lack hobbies/skills/personality/creativity of their own and often seek it out/change friendships/jobs/relationships quickly to maintain their perosona



Those are my quick notes on the subject
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Old 02-11-2019, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by FireSprite View Post
She's been talking a lot more in the last 5-6 months since starting individual therapy & is starting to connect this kind of behavior with his manipulation. She explained it to me like this - every time she thought he was showing genuine interest in her wants & needs, it was because he wanted something from her in return & was clearing the way for that future request. Every. Time.

He has previously been diagnosed as being on the spectrum of mental illness, but it's all very cloudy since he displays the behaviors he wants anyone to see when he wants them to - very chameleon like - and she wasn't involved in that process in ANY way so it's all hearsay for what HE says they have recommended for him. She has no way of verifying or knowing anything - just his words.

Knowing this, I chalked his narc-like behaviors up to being part of that (we all know there's a lot of bleeding over with symptoms across this spectrum which is part of what makes proper diagnosis so difficult to begin with) but now that I'm listening to her outline patterns & cycles that go back 25+ yrs.... it just seems like a much more complicated & potentially more dangerous dysfunction than I realized.



This is her for sure - she's in her 40's now & they've been together since she was 15. Outside of her childhood abusers, she's never been in any kind of relationship with any other man.




Yep, yep, yep..... still ringing alllll the bells. The sexual stuff she's been sharing has been a bit uncomfortable for me - & I'm as open minded as a person comes. Thing is, there's a difference between 2 people consenting to whatever they enjoy together vs. the one-sided, controlling & abusive way he's been using sex as a weapon & an outlet for his manic episodes.




Ding, ding, ding!!! The incident that brought all of this to a head happened around a group of us & the difference this time is that when he started his abuse about it later, she heard the alarm bells in her head (thanks to her own work in therapy), reached out to others to verify what he was saying instead of accepting it & shaming herself privately. I have had to remind her at least 10x in the last few weeks that this thing he is saying did not happen, you did not do this thing, you are not this person he is making you out to be... over & over & over because she keeps defaulting back to the old programming that says she is wrong/bad.

He's ANGRY that she is talking. It's her fault for telling people & if she hadn't done that everything would be fine, he could let things settle & then pick the pieces up again & carry on. She's not letting that happen & she has support so he's losing control & not at ALL ok with that. I'm not sure how far he's willing to go or how much more pressure she can manage.

We text daily & I've put her in touch with other friends that have more in common with her childhood damage so that I can step away from the situation. (his latest drama indirectly attacks/involves my family & it would be very easy to take it all personally... I do not want to damage our friendship if at all possible.)




Ok, so I use this one all the time when I'm trying to explain how we all have a few narcissistic qualities & that in a healthy individual, we even need a little of that for our egos to feed the desire to strive for more/better/achieve/etc.

Like me, I tell her -our running joke is that we go out on Saturday nights because of how long it takes me to get ready....... I spend almost as long getting ready as I do actually out having fun & that's hard on a Friday when I have to rush home from a long work day first, lol .... but I don't care, that's me & my vanity & one of the few ways I let my ego/narcissism out to play.
Had to highlight some things that really kept me stuck in my relationship. sorry for double reply to this thread. Hot topic for me
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Old 02-11-2019, 12:17 PM
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The hobbies part -- my dad has several hobbies that provide him with accolades, narc supply and support the facade (mask/false front) he's built.

I truly believe that more people will start seeing the mask slip, and overall more people are more aware of narcissistic behaviors.

I have a friend in a nearby town who's father is a very behind-doors, abusive narc. Many people long thought of him as one of the best guys they knew, including me. That vision has been broken. His daughter is in NC for many years and is thriving.
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Old 02-11-2019, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by OpheliaKatz View Post
Yup this was what happened to me too. It's hard to see abusive personalities if you don't know that abusers manipulate by acting hurt; and when they hurt you, and you complain about it, they tell everyone you try to talk to that you're a narcissist who tries to get attention by faking emotional hurt.

In fact, my ex reminded me of this so much, particularly when I tried to tell him that he was hurting my feelings (he would change the subject and make it about how I was hurting his feelings by drawing attention to myself without considering his feelings), that I started to keep all my feelings to myself. I also felt I had to talk to him very carefully, so as to not hurt his unpredictable feelings -- anything could have hurt his feelings: lipstick, music, laundry... anything. I started apologizing for being self-centered. "I'm sorry that I asked about the drugs... I understand that your physical symptoms are due to PTSD and not drugs... and that you know how to moderate your drug use. I'm sorry I was distrustful of you. I realize I know nothing about drugs, but you know more than me because you took them. I'm sorry I presume things -- it is probably because I am egotistical and/or controlling."



Sorry for the novel.
Sounds familiar. I was so very respectful of his sensitivities because of his alleged PTSD that it didn't occur to me that a) he had never received a formal diagnosis of PTSD - he got the idea from Doctor Google; and b) there are many people who have had bad childhoods and even worse horrific life-threatening experiences who do not treat their spouses like dirt - a bad childhood is not a license to be a drunken jerk forever.

After a while, everything I did (walk, talk, eat, buy groceries, read, occupy space, breathe) became something that I was doing wrong and needed to do differently in order to respect his "emotional needs". If I pushed back even a bit, it was framed as my being "clinically depressed", and my depression was yet another terrible experience he had to endure. If I objected that I didn't think I was depressed, that was evidence that I was so depressed that I didn't even know how depressed I was. But he knew.

Looking back, it was all such a mindfrack. In the abstract, I can feel some compassion for people who have the traits associated with personality disorders because I think it's impossible for someone like that to be happy, but in real life, I really struggle with forgiveness and detachment, even after years apart.
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Old 02-12-2019, 04:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Sasha1972 View Post
In the abstract, I can feel some compassion for people who have the traits associated with personality disorders because I think it's impossible for someone like that to be happy, but in real life, I really struggle with forgiveness and detachment, even after years apart.
Yes, me too. I struggle to forgive.
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Old 02-12-2019, 07:28 AM
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I struggle with forgiveness in most situations to begin with, so there's a side of me where it's impossible to imagine what forgiving a full blown narcissist entails. I think that requires it's own special sub-category of Forgiveness in some way, don't you?

The person I started this thread about just recently tried apologizing for starting trouble between all of us but it was what I call an un-apology. Basically - "I'm sorry everyone is upset & that you've seen me for who I truly am. It won't happen again."

I told him to shove it because this takes no accountability, no ownership of being wrong or sorry for hurting other people. But I can do that - I'm not married to him & haven't been subjected to years of smoldering abuse. In this scenario, I'm the frog that jumps into the pot of boiling water, says F that & bounces. I can remove him from my world almost 100%.

But when I put myself in my friend's shoes, forgiving him almost feels like handing him power in some way. I realize we can't control the way someone receives what we give - that when we give forgiveness it's about letting go on our side without worrying about the results. But when someone looks for & uses that destructively as an emotional hammer in some way, don't the rules change a bit?

Lots of food for thought here guys....I have to digest & come back. The personal experiences being shared makes all the difference because this is one of those topics with tons of subtle nuances that escape a lot of the more academic readings.
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Old 02-12-2019, 07:58 AM
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There seems to be many factors involving a narcissist of which I see many in the alcoholic here. But if you really think back many of his current behaviors were at a much lower level of intensity/frequency but they were there. Point being substances probably make these worse, not necessarily create them.

I also found a good article on narcissism that seemed pretty comprehensive.

https://blogs.psychcentral.com/narci...s-are-similar/

He fits all those categories and/or one of them daily. The most recent is failure to take responsibility for his actions/drinking/drugging etc. He now blames his negative side effects ie stroke, bp problems etc on a family medical history that simply does not exist. He is slamming the family and family doctors for miss diagnosing or missing the "actual" cause of the ill or deceased health problems. He 'says' he got his doctor to agree with him but he's constantly seeking validation for his ideas. The people that passed under 80 in the family had things like cancer, not stroke or heart attack. And everything he does legal, prescribed or illegal has a side negative effects that contribute to high bp etc.

The first 3 fit him to a tee-denial, lack of introspection, failure to take responsibility. He fits the rest but these are the most prominent recent symptoms.
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Old 02-12-2019, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by OpheliaKatz View Post
Yes, me too. I struggle to forgive.
And I never have, not probably in its "truest" sense. I don't care anymore, it happened and I have let it go, it's indifference and I'm good with that. When I think of him I think "what an ass", that's about it.

Then again, I do wish him well, although I know that him having some rich, satisfying life is all but impossible - but hey, not my problem.

My experience was not like yours though. I read your experience as bordering on (or perhaps even being) a form or torture. While any interaction with a cluster B can be that, your situation is extreme and can't be downplayed.

I don't even know where you start to recover there. Time and counselling? Lots of time perhaps.

Originally Posted by thequest View Post
There seems to be many factors involving a narcissist of which I see many in the alcoholic here.
As for narcissism in general, I think it is next to impossible to discern between an alcoholic's behaviour and narcissism, they are so close in presentation. Except perhaps in extreme circumstances (like Ophelia's case) or semi-extreme.
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Old 02-12-2019, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by FireSprite View Post
But when I put myself in my friend's shoes, forgiving him almost feels like handing him power in some way. I realize we can't control the way someone receives what we give - that when we give forgiveness it's about letting go on our side without worrying about the results. But when someone looks for & uses that destructively as an emotional hammer in some way, don't the rules change a bit?
It is handing him power, no question about it.

As for forgiveness, can't really forgive something destructive like that when it is a continuing situation.

I think there can be blanket forgiveness for some things. For instance many people do that with alcoholics, rather than accepting that something has happened they accept something is going to happen over and over. Well, some people can just let it go, especially if they can detach and not take it personally.

With the man you describe, it's ongoing abuse. I will take your forgiveness and use it against you. Sometimes it's unwise to forgive, to let your guard down. I don't know. Until she exits the situation, it's murky waters.
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Old 02-12-2019, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by FireSprite View Post
I struggle with forgiveness in most situations to begin with, so there's a side of me where it's impossible to imagine what forgiving a full blown narcissist entails. I think that requires it's own special sub-category of Forgiveness in some way, don't you?
Firesprite, I had two major narcissists in my life -- my mother, and an ex (not the addict). I was able to forgive them both when I fully understood that they didn't act the way they did toward me for any personal reasons -- they didn't set out to hurt me -- but rather they acted the way they did because they were narcissists. It was never personal. It was their habitual patterns, the way they had been programmed by their own experiences.

It's very simple, but it took me a long, long time to fully understand the dynamic and to let go.

Also, although I came to forgive both of these people fully , I never related intimately with either one of them again, as I knew that it would bring me ongoing unhappiness and frustration. I'm not sure that they had the capacity to relate in an honest way with anyone, including themselves. But changing this was beyond my control and wasn't my place to change anyway. People are who they are, and forgiving them doesn't mean that we have to relate closely with them again. Sometimes it means acknowledging that the dynamics are such that we CAN'T relate closely with them, and that it is better to let go in love and light.

Again, narcissists aren't being narcissistic AT you (or anyone) in particular, it is just who they are and how they operate. My mother's narcissistic behavior flared up with everyone she was close to, especially her family. My father really suffered. She once told my brother, unprovoked, at the dinner table in front of numerous people at an extended family gathering that he was a loser and she wished more than anything that she had had a second daughter instead of a son. He was stricken. Then she turned to me and said that I was a crappy daughter and that she wished she had had my cousin as her child instead. I just looked at her and said, "you know Mom, when I was a little angel floating around in heaven ready to incarnate on earth, I was pointing my arrow at Jackie Onassis (she had been talking earlier about how she had seen JFK's motorcade). You happened to bend over to fix your shoe and you stuck your fat ass in the air, just at the wrong moment. My arrow hit it, and suddenly I found myself incarnated in Buffalo. Buffalo NY. Buffalo. Really Mother, do you think I was happy with this arrangement?

The table howled in laughter (my mother's siblings had all been victims plenty of her behavior) but my relationship with my mother was never close after that. She would have forgotten about the incident in a few months, but she had the habit of saying very hurtful things and it wasn't going to change, I was 24, working a good job in NYC, making it on my own, and I wasn't willing to subject myself to her obnoxious behavior anymore.

Sometimes it's best for both parties to open up some space, even if it's family. With my mother, I reduced my expectations of her. I would visit for a couple nights at Christmas, and for a weekend around Mother's day (staying in a hotel). I wish she had had a less hurtful personality, but it was who she was, and every time I tried to get closer the head games would begin.

Anyway, this was my route to forgiveness. One can forgive, but that doesn't mean one has to make themselves vulnerable to the other person's behavior again.

Sometimes forgiveness means accepting someone for who they are and making changes to our lives and relationships accordingly, and letting go of who we want them to be.
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Old 02-12-2019, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by FireSprite View Post

The person I started this thread about just recently tried apologizing for starting trouble between all of us but it was what I call an un-apology. Basically - "I'm sorry everyone is upset & that you've seen me for who I truly am. It won't happen again."

I told him to shove it because this takes no accountability, no ownership of being wrong or sorry for hurting other people.
Let's run this through the Not An Apology Translator: If a sentence begins with "I'm sorry ...", the next words should be "... that I did X" or "...that I didn't do Y". Saying "I'm sorry" about someone else's feelings ("everybody is upset") just means "I do not like the fact that other people are expressing these feelings which might somehow be connected to me, but I'm staying noncommittal on that". You are right to perceive it as no accountability.

"You've seen me for who I truly am and it won't happen again" - not sure where to start with that one. If this is who he truly is, it will happen again, no?
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Old 02-12-2019, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Needabreak View Post
Also, although I came to forgive both of these people fully , I never related intimately with either one of them again, as I knew that it would bring me ongoing unhappiness and frustration.
Another version of not being able to "unsee" things once perspective has shifted. I get this & know it's part of what I'm feeling..... the more my friend pieces together & shares the further down this road I get. It all makes so much more sense now that more has been revealed.

I can't thank you enough for the story about your mom - I'm here howling in laughter at my desk just like your dinner guests; it's been a tough day & I wasn't expecting this big of a belly-laugh in this thread.


Originally Posted by Sasha1972
If this is who he truly is, it will happen again, no?
That's my opinion too - especially since her latest shares show a long-standing pattern of this exact behavior. It all paints a much clearer Big Picture, lots of dots getting connected.

When he got my non-acceptance of his non-apology, he told my friend, "well, I guess this makes things hard on YOU." She asked why & he replied that since I obviously wasn't going to speak to him ever again, it would make things hard for her if/when we run into each other eventually. (ie. *I'm* making things hard for her by not accepting his BS)

She responded, "No - it makes things hard for YOU. WE are fine (me, my husband, our DDs & her) - it's just YOU that everyone has a problem with...."

I'm positive part of his motive was trying to isolate her away from me - our friendship has been a threat to him for a long time now & he's tried before. He can't control her as easily since I've been "putting ideas into her head".
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Old 02-12-2019, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by FireSprite View Post
has been a threat to him for a long time now & he's tried before. He can't control her as easily since I've been "putting ideas into her head".
Oh yes! This is a big indicator. The narc I speak of was not really comfortable with me talking to my Sister (which is soooo too damn bad), he did realize, eventually, there was nothing, absolutely nothing he could do about that though.
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Old 02-12-2019, 01:56 PM
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Yes! Red flag #4, 531: Person with narcissistic traits does the "you and me vs Everybody Else" move. It's a form of triangulation (A aligns with B against C ...). My ex thought all my friends were "misfits and lesbians" (seriously) (and therefore not to be taken seriously).

At one point I actually started making a list of friends I had who were clearly not lesbians (e.g. men and heterosexual women). It did not occur to me until later that the most appropriate response would have been "if you've got an issue with 'misfits and lesbians', that's an ish-you, not an ish-me".
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Old 02-13-2019, 03:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Needabreak View Post
"you know Mom, when I was a little angel floating around in heaven ready to incarnate on earth, I was pointing my arrow at Jackie Onassis (she had been talking earlier about how she had seen JFK's motorcade). You happened to bend over to fix your shoe and you stuck your fat ass in the air, just at the wrong moment. My arrow hit it, and suddenly I found myself incarnated in Buffalo. Buffalo NY. Buffalo. Really Mother, do you think I was happy with this arrangement?
This really made me laugh.
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Old 02-13-2019, 03:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Sasha1972 View Post
Yes! Red flag #4, 531: My ex thought all my friends were "misfits and lesbians" (seriously) (and therefore not to be taken seriously).
I have recently been told that if I didn't make an effort to look younger, I should only ever apply for jobs where I'm surrounded by lesbians, because we live in a patriarchy whether I like it or not.
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Old 02-13-2019, 03:43 AM
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Originally Posted by trailmix View Post
As for narcissism in general, I think it is next to impossible to discern between an alcoholic's behaviour and narcissism, they are so close in presentation. Except perhaps in extreme circumstances (like Ophelia's case) or semi-extreme.
Actually, when I was in the relationship, I didn't think he was a narcissist or abusive. I really did think that he was a victim, and I used to say, "well, he's hurting himself and other people but it's because he's a victim" -- something to that effect. My family would say, "you don't see it, but you are being abused by a master manipulator... AND he will wipe out EVERYONE connected to you." I thought that my family were being jerks. So I started to cut them out of my life. It became very clear that I was starting to run out of people in my life -- first my friends were cut out, then my family. If I wasn't so desperate, I would have never reached out to friends or family because at the time, I thought, I don't care if they tell me to f-off, I need to call SOMEONE cause I could get killed tonight.

I just want to say, going from "poor guy, he's a victim and he's acting this way because he's a victim" to "I could get killed tonight" was actually very sudden for me. I was literally in shock for a while. So what I'm saying is... I really do think abuse is a spectrum. ExAh's "rock-bottom" was when I tried to detach (I said: we will live separately while you go to rehab... we can worry about the relationship when you are medically and emotionally ready for it). That was when I discovered he was capable of some scary ****. The thing I discovered from this is: ExAh was/is excellent at self-control. If he was a Stanley Kowalski type abuser, the abuse would have been more obvious. I also noticed that watching very violent movies calmed him -- violence made him feel less agitated... but I also know that he wasn't happy with many of his anti-social personality traits. From day to day, he seemed like a gentle, very intelligent man; he was very concerned about appearing to be a "good" person -- but the more you got to know him (and I mean, you would have to know him intimately), the less clear this personality trait was. He could be very verbally aggressive. After about a decade, I started to feel worthless and I didn't even know why.

However... I don't think my case is extreme, just different -- a different type of abuse. Reason is: I attended DV groups and I have met people whose ExAhs were the type that would grab an electric chord and start whipping them -- and this type of abuse was frequent. So eventually I was told that I didn't have to continue to attend because my case was not as extreme. It's not as if some guy gave me black eyes or something.

I think what separates addiction violence from pre-exisiting violence is really control -- are they doing it to control you? Are they in control when they are acting that way? Just my opinion. Not an expert. No idea if my ex is a narc... but the behaviors were toxic to me... so I'm out. I certainly think he has FOO issues, which impacted his behaviors.

Also, no idea if this is worth mentioning but ExAh is an ACOA and also experienced family violence (mother was abused severely). He felt it was his "job" to control his mother so that she wouldn't "cause" his father to become physically violent (I mean, of course he could not control his A-dad, so the focus became about controlling the victim). I can't stress enough the negative impact of family violence and addiction on children. Terrible things happen. People need safe spaces or they grow up and become perpetrators or victims themselves.
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Old 02-13-2019, 03:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Sasha1972 View Post
Let's run this through the Not An Apology Translator: If a sentence begins with "I'm sorry ...", the next words should be "... that I did X" or "...that I didn't do Y". Saying "I'm sorry" about someone else's feelings ("everybody is upset") just means "I do not like the fact that other people are expressing these feelings which might somehow be connected to me, but I'm staying noncommittal on that". You are right to perceive it as no accountability.

"You've seen me for who I truly am and it won't happen again" - not sure where to start with that one. If this is who he truly is, it will happen again, no?
Wow so many contradictions: "I'm sorry" contradicts "everybody is upset" and "you've seen me for who I truly am" contradicts "it won't happen again". So basically it's sorry-not-sorry.
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Old 02-13-2019, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by OpheliaKatz View Post
Wow so many contradictions: "I'm sorry" contradicts "everybody is upset" and "you've seen me for who I truly am" contradicts "it won't happen again". So basically it's sorry-not-sorry.
Yes, the only time I see this is appropriate? is if you aren't really sure if you have hurt someone's feelings. It can be a guess sometimes! "I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings" can mean - if I did, not sure if I did but you seem upset?

In the example the person seems to be genuinely deflecting, I just mean in general.
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