AnvilheadII

she did not say that was from alanon, that was from her ES&H.

It would be good if there was a social network where people could connect that wasnt really attached to a specific program and you could talk about anything you want. even have crosstalk to a certain degree.

we used to call it "the meeting after the meeting" where members talk in the parking lot or go reconvene at the local Denny's.

12 step programs are about getting better. finding ways to get from where we were to a new, better place. this requires constructive talk about the solution, not the problem.

LexieCat

There are plenty of bits of "conventional wisdom" that aren't part of the AA or Al-Anon program. One example: not to start a new relationship for the first year of sobriety. You won't find that ANYWHERE in the literature, but it's become conventional wisdom based on the experiences of countless people in the program. Others are things like not engaging in cross-talk at meetings, not giving advice at meetings, etc. They may not be "official" but they are widely practiced and recommended because they have been found to work better for most people than the alternative.

Heck, you won't even find sponsorship mentioned in the Big Book. Doesn't mean it's not a great idea.

I've never heard the line about healthy thinkers not being attracted to alcoholics/addicts. I personally don't agree. I think continuing to STAY attracted as your life is circling the drain as a result of a relationship with an alcoholic/addict indicates some rather problematic thinking.

FallenAngelina

It's not an Al-Anon concept and apologies if it came off that way. It is my opinion.

I'd amend my statement to say that "A heathy thinker has zero interest and attraction to an active alcoholic or addict." I know a good number of recovering As who have wonderful relationships and one of my dearest friends is an active AA and Al-Anon member, four years sober. I stand by my statement (which is merely my opinion based on my observations) that anyone who is emotionally involved with an active alcoholic is participating in a codependent relationship and is therefor codependent. Certainly, many people manage relationships with active alcoholics, but they are not in the least emotionally intertwined and certainly not attracted to them. It's just not possible to be emotionally close to an active alcoholic without codependent thinking. A heathy thinker has zero interest and attraction to an active alcoholic or addict. Again, just my opinion.

aliciagr

This brings up two other things. More serious for me. It doesnt matter if you go to 5 meetings that each have a different flavor, or if you meet out in the parking lot to chat, go to a big conference... its still all based solely on the ideas, beliefs, concepts of Alanon which is solely derived from the beliefs of the AA program - it has its own specific view to explain addiction and what needs to be done to recover by both the addict and the family member.

The expansion of knowledge usually comes from others who are in the program using the same approach, regulars or old timers who have long ago adapted their life and their past according to what they have learned in the program. It fits and they share. Or reading things written by those in the program where it complements or confirms the same ideas and concepts.

That is what you would expect because its all about adapting to, and working a specific program.

But I would prefer a more neutral setting where program ideas dont restrict what topics you can discuss, or what materials you reference, and your healing doesnt have to follow along a specific concept. If you want to talk about your spouse addiction, or recovery - that can be healing - who is there to say it cant be? If you want to talk about how you feel about your spouse, or why he made you upset - that can be healing. who says it cant be? My therapist encouraged me to share anything I wanted. Why not talk about the various approaches, beliefs, concepts related to addiction and recovery and family. Because things sometimes just click. Books, articles, therapy tools, how to cope with emotions, how to interact with a family member, how to communicate, how not to enable, how to encourage or support, people sharing what worked for them, and what didnt in a safe place.

It may sound odd, but I went to therapy and to a support group for abused women (due to several violent episodes when my husband was using) It basically followed this idea.. we talked about them, how what happened affected us.. our feelings, things that helped us move forward and heal.. there was not a program to follow.. My husband and I do marriage counseling/ family therapy.. we used to go to a support group with other spouses working on their marriage. It followed the same open structure. Couples talked about what was going on, how they each were affected, pain, hurt, how they were working on it, challenges, etc. There was not chaos, and it was helpful to hear others, and share. It was healing and also educational.

The idea that people even need "a program" to work through substance abuse issues or its counterparts.. is something that comes from the programs themselves. To heal, alter behaviors, change patterns, get better can be accomplished a lot of different ways.

LexieCat

The point is, that these programs have worked for hundreds of thousands of people--many of whom had tried other ways.

If something else works, go for it. Then you have no use for AA or Al-Anon. No reason to criticize a program that DOES help so many. And, incidentally, the "programs" are descriptions of how early members recovered. They weren't dreamed up by academicians/practitioners. The founders said, "This is what worked for us, when nothing else did."

FallenAngelina

This is the core of Al-Anon (to me.) The more I participate, the more I see that I get nowhere by judging the program or the A in my life. Going to meetings is about transforming my thinking and hanging out with people who are committed to a stable, fulfilling life - no matter what. A happy life looks different on each person, but the way to get there is always the same: It's never about the other guy.

aliciagr

I didnt mean to criticize the program Lexi, and I dont think I did so by saying the program is based on specific ideas. I have taken good things from my time in Alanon, and from things shared by people who use the program. There is no need to criticize other avenues like academics or medical practitioners however. The Founders of the program was forthright in saying their intent was to work with the medical profession. What I was trying to get at was my desire to incorporate ideas from various programs, and other resources into the overall process of recovery. It would be nice if it could all come together. A diversified approach.

Ladybird579

I've been to nothing...no therapy, counselling or Alanon ( there was no Alanon where I lived so it wasn't cos I have anything against it cos I don't) and I am pretty much recovered. I have a huge faith tho and that has helped. I turn everything over to God. I hardly remember my exah exists except if one of my kids mentions him. I found out I needed to recover on this forum and I set about by online work and reading to make that happen. It has taken 3 years even tho I had detached from exah in 2009 I didn't really heal until we were separated.

I find addicts a bore now. My last boyfriend is a heavy drinker and I split up with him cos it was not what I wanted anymore. The previous me would have battled on. Am attracted to normal types now. Tho I did admit on this forum to being very taken with a 15 year sober alcoholic recently I've not acted on it. Am happy on my own. Am going to university in September to do a degree. The old me would never have had the confidence.

honeypig

I used to be annoyed b/c Alanon meetings only want to use and reference "conference-approved literature." Like you, alicia, I thought "well, why can't we just use anything that's helpful? Why place limits on what we can read/discuss/reference?" After a while, I realized that it's simply b/c those things are not the Alanon program.

It's like when I read a recipe online that sounds good but gets some bad reviews. I then look at the bad reviews to see what's not good about it. So often, the bad reviews are a variation on "I didn't have ingredient A, so I used something else. It sounded like there was too much of ingredient B and too little of ingredient C, so I used different amounts. I had some ingredient D that I thought might be good in it, so I threw that in, too. And then I was supposed to bake it in an 8x8 pan for 45 minutes at 350, but I put it in a 9x13 pan and baked it for a half hour at 400. And IT WAS HORRIBLE! A horrible recipe!"

Wait. Did the reviewer do ANYTHING that the recipe said? Not much. So how can the reviewer say it's a horrible recipe when she didn't actually even MAKE that recipe?

The Alanon program is the Alanon program. Take what you like and leave the rest. Seek other things outside of the program if you want or need to and find them helpful. But Alanon has every right, in my opinion, to keep their "recipe" in its original form.

FallenAngelina

I'm curious what you mean by "an approach?" A community where many people are working with many different resources? That's kind of what goes on here in this forum. Yes, the Al-Anon program has a big presence here, but only because it works for so many and is so widely available, but we can talk about other resources, as well. I would imagine that most people in recovery avail themselves of several resources. Al-Anon is the place where I focus on the Al-Anon program and Al-Anon concepts, but I have several other resources that support my developing recovery: spiritually based yoga classes, inspirational speakers, my Jewish heritage, some Buddhist philosophy, meditation and regular check-ins with a close friend who is also a codie in recovery. I don't follow Al-Anon to the exclusion of all other positive ideas, although while in meetings, I do not discuss these resources and very much appreciate that others don't, either. I have, however, had several fruitful "parking lot meetings" and am forming Al-Anon based friendships through which other ideas are heartily exchanged. I guess I serve as my own "diversified approach" if I'm understanding what you mean, and I imagine that most other people do, too.

AnvilheadII

it's the difference between taking a glass-blowing class or creative writing course. both have the goal of artistic expression, but each go about achieving that goal for the student in different ways. different methods, mediums, tools and skill development.

FireSprite

I feel like there is so much getting hung up in semantics & "Labels" here. This:

IS a program of recovery in my opinion. Just because they don't use the word "program" doesn't make it any less of one.

For the record, I've done zero Al-Anon IRL, but have benefitted greatly from the shares from friends that have & the program materials I've read. MY program consists of SR, a very strong spirituality & more books, blogs & resources than I can possibly recall spanning topics of ALL sorts over many years.

What I find so ironic is that *my* impression of Al-Anon & it's members across the board has been one of flexibility & acceptance of all kinds of recovery-speak. It is anything BUT a rigid dot-your-i's and cross-your-t's type of therapy. And it's available to EVERYONE regardless of their race, religion or economic status (another point you seem to miss completely Alicia - not everyone CAN afford the therapies you speak about).... but you speak of it as if they have cult-like requirements & consequences.

The truth is that NO single way exists for EVERY addict. If it did, we wouldn't be having these circular discussions, would we? We wouldn't be facing epidemics related to opiate addiction, we would clearly know the causes of addiction & be able to avoid relapse.

honeypig

That's such an important point, FireSprite, and thanks for mentioning it! There is absolutely no way I could afford therapy or counseling on a regular basis, but for no cost at all except the dollar or two I can put in the basket if I choose, Alanon is there and available multiple times every day of the week as well as online and by phone. Plus I can call people on the phone list if I want/need to and either get together or just talk on the phone.

And, as FS says, all accessible to just about anyone.

FireSprite

Well said!!!

Hangnbyathread

I found some value in AlAnon as a place to hear how normal (if you can call it that) my addicts paths and lifestyles were. And it was a good place to go and verbally unload.

But it really didn't offer me anything in the way of getting better. It was more about coping. My recovery began in earnest when I threw my ex out of my house and out of my life.

I have resumed a normal life, with normal people, doing normal things.

Being with an addict was what I call a life lesson and a chapter written in my book of life.

I have never looked back, never found the need to change what or who I am. It was a GREAT relief to have it behind me.

I am happy living a normal life, dating a normal girl, not feeling embarrassed or ashamed or anything but normal now.

aliciagr

Honeypig - great analogy.

I want to make it clear that I dont think Alanon or the 12 step programs need to change anything. They have their foundations set, and its fine. I know if I go to an Alanon meeting, it will be based on their program ideas. take what you want and leave the rest applies.

My point was wouldnt it be nice if there was something else free, easily accessible where people could go just to have a support network similar to SR where people could vent, share, talk. It wouldnt be specific to a program of any kind.

Fallen Angelina - What I meant by "approach" is that as individuals we each have to sort through a lot of information on substance abuse and everything associated with it. My beliefs and the way I choose to deal with it... that is my approach. There is not a right or a wrong approach - as long as it gets the individual where they want/need to go.

Smarie78

It's all about finding something that "works" for you. Like exercise. I know that running does not "work" for my fitness goals. I hate it actually. Just like I hate the treadmill. I have tried it. I followed the directions. It did nothing for me. Then I discovered Pilates and the way it made me feel physically and mentally. the way I didn't look at the clock praying that it would speed up so I could get out of there. I ended up reaching my fitness goals finding something I enjoyed doing and felt a connection to.

I would never ever knock AA/Alanon seeing as how so many have stayed sober following the program (though the incredibly high failure rate cannot be ignored either). My only hang up is my frustration at the lack of scientific advancement in the realm of addiction. To see a medical issue still overwhelmingly treated using a reliance on spiritual faith rather than medical advancements, does nag at me. And I don't blame addicts or those who use the program, I largely blame what has felt like a throw away by the medical and scientific communities that haven't yet acknowledged it as a legitimate disease - outside of the SG's statement last year actually calling it a 'brain disease' - you still have that teetering on the..."well isn't it just a choice?" stigma out there.

Again - if looking at paint dry works for you in staying sober, look at paint dry. I don't think anyone is knocking the program, but more so stating their own experiences and feelings toward it. I will always maintain that if it has helped keep people sober then it is worth the commitment.

tomsteve

its pretty sad to read people bring up "failure rates"for any recovery program.
lets stop blaming something else for the actions of the person, eh?

FallenAngelina

Ah, ok. I was confused because you said, "It would be nice if it could all come together. A diversified approach." So it sounds like you do what many of us do and integrate several supports. Even though Al-Anon doesn't speak to you as much, it's still a component for you.

I do think it's fine to cherry pick from Al-Anon, ignore Steps and even concepts that don't work for you. You never know if those things are wrong for you or whether you're not ready for them. Of course, Al-Anon is going to go to great lengths to keep its program pure and it is a program with Steps and sponsorship and slogans and prayers - all there for good reason. I'm well aware, though, that by not participating in certain parts of the program, I'm not availing myself of all that Al-Anon has to offer and all of the reasons that so many people find success in it.

FireSprite

And see..... to me *this* is opinion.

Where is it written that addiction is DEFINITIVELY a medical condition? Who has announced this as an irrefutable, published conclusion? If it is, why do some people recover by only ever working a program based more in spirituality?

We are all operating on addiction THEORIES, not absolutes. Not the same thing at all.