Sasha1972

My sense (from talking to just a few people in AA, so I could be off base) is that the goal isn't to "treat" alcoholism like a doctor would but to provide a set of psychological and spiritual resources and fellowship (meetings and steps) to help people persevere in their desire to not drink and to transform their lives. It works great for a lot of people, works off and on for a lot of people too, and is of no use to another lot of people. As far as I can see, the main difference between people who rely on AA and people who don't is the question of total abstinence from alcohol and other addictive substances.

aliciagr

This is in fact one of those concepts- that we each have to look at individually so we can form our own opinion.

Smarie78

Hangn- I'm glad to hear that you reclaimed your life once the addict was out of it. And yes the meetings helped tremendously for me as well to understand that I was not alone and that my addict's behavior was normal for an addict. The thing is, is that were I to end the relationship with the addict, I don't think it would be as much an instant switch to a normal life. While my relationships in the past were not with addicts, I still find strong patterns between current Abf and past relationships. Verbal/emotional abuse and being unable to leave the person.

I hope you continue to explore things that had come up for you while with the addict as they have a funny way of sneaking back in using a different guise!

Smarie78

It IS a medical condition. The Surgeon General came out and called it not only an epidemic but a chronic brain disease. This has also been verified by the American Society of Addiction Medicine. This disease is not just making bad choices and bad behavior, but an actual issue in the brain. Maybe we are getting caught up in semantics here, but it is most certainly not a disease of willpower. If some people recover by only working a spiritually based program, then that's great - but alcoholism is also on a big spectrum which is why things like moderation management can work for some problem drinkers vs. dependent drinkers. though both can be called alcoholics.

I don't know...maybe addiction is different in that faith based treatment can heal some addicts vs. a cancer patient who can't use faith and spirituality to heal and be cancer-free. I don't know I am certainly no expert in addiction. I am simply stating my frustration at the lack in medical advancement to treat a brain disease.

Smarie78

Why is this a problematic statement? It is true. If the #1 utilized treatment program in the world has a success rate in the single digits, and addiction is a brain disease, shouldn't there be a much greater push toward medical and scientific advancement to heal the brain? If a program continues to fail an overwhelming amount of people, do we look at the program or assume millions of people are not willing to follow it? That isn't rhetorical either. I truly am curious.

honeypig

Smarie, I don't think it works that way for most people. We DON'T make an "instant switch to a normal life." That is the work we do in recovery. Just like an A isn't instantly whole, healthy and sane the second his/her blood alcohol level returns to 0, we here on the other end aren't instantly healthy and happy the second we leave our A. RECOVERY is the process of GETTING TO whole, healthy, sane and happy.

It's not like getting a sliver out of your finger. It's a process of changing your life. And it sure isn't instant or easy!

Sasha1972

I think alcoholism as a disease may be like cancer - there's no one capital-C cancer, there are many different forms which have some things in common and other differences, which means there's no definitive medical solution.

I'm thinking of alcoholics I have known - there's my best friend's husband, who woke up one morning and decided he didn't like who he was turning into and stopped drinking from that day with no medical or formal program participation; there's my partner's uni roommate, who drank and drank and died before he was 50 because he burned out his liver without ever attempting to stop drinking; there's my ex, who has gone through every kind of recovery and rehab around, from 12-step to biomedical, and still gets worse; and so on and so forth. They are all upper-middle-class white men who fit the diagnostic criteria for addiction, but had wildly different outcomes. Did they all have the same disease?

I think an important difference between alcoholism and cancer is that no one decides to drive to the cancer store, buys a few bottles of cancer, goes home and drinks them, and then hides the cancer bottles in the garbage because they promised their family they'd stop getting cancer. I think there's room for a discussion of personal will, decision-making, integrity and selfishness in alcoholism recovery, which sets it apart from many other diseases.

Smarie78

Sasha......nailed it. There absolutely must include the discussion of free will, integrity, and all you mentioned above. The Alcoholic in my life is one of the most selfish people I have ever met. Even when he is not actively drinking I am sometimes awe-struck at his behaviors which he does not appear to be ashamed of or even aware of...or let's say he is but in denial.

When he isn't actively drinking he is able (able, not willing) to do things like be a good father. In my mind I look at it as, well...if you are well enough to visit with me you are well enough to visit your boy. In that sense that is NOT alcoholism, but selfishness and integrity failing. 100% agree. The alcoholic's decision-making cannot be so impaired that it works for one thing but not the other. You cannot blame your addiction or even a mental problem on choosing to only do the things that benefit you and bring you joy.

Wholesome

Addiction is not a disease. It is about seeking out pleasure and avoiding pain. Our base animal brains are programmed to do this as a survival drive. Drugs and alcohol make the user feel really good so they do it over and over again until they are addicted and that drive gets perverted and starts to tell the user to get high all the time and at the slightest amount of pain or pleasure, even at the expense of everything else.... use, use, use, more, more, more. Damn the consequences, I want to feel good right now.


Side note. I don't understand why the family members need to take the 12 steps if they don't have the internal spiritual malady from alcoholism?

dandylion

Smarie....I have been in "medicine" all of my adult life.....So....I have spent a lot of time studying diseases...lol. One thing that I have learned is that there is no clear separation of mind and body...in any disease....or "condition of unwellness"....
I think it is wise to attend to both.

LOl..you can call it my twisted kind of thinking, but, I consider sobriety to be a Medical Treatment (as well as spiritual)....
The first task, if the body is being poisoned, is to stop the consumption of the offending agent....no matter what it is...
So, even AA is a type of medical (physical) treatment...if the goal is to stay sober....
Our advancements in cancer treatments have included spiritual and emotional supports---more than ever before...why?....because the patients do better.....we have, empirically, learned that.....

I really don't see what all the fuss (arguments) are about....I accept the treatment of the mind and the body, together as the demonstrated direction to go.....

Smarie...I get it that you are frustrated at the "lack of progress".....of course, we have a long way to go in the realm of healing disease...
Just be thankful that we are born now...and, not one hundred years or more, ago....many of us wouldn't have even made it to or through infancy!

tomsteve

because its not the program that is unsuccessful. but if you want to blame ANY program for the actions of the alcoholic, have at it.

and how is success determined? imo, if a person goes to bed without drinking on day 1, THEY are successful.

"If a program continues to fail an overwhelming amount of people, do we look at the program or assume millions of people are not willing to follow it?"

or maybe millions of alcoholics arent willing to look for alternative programs?

but its not the program failing. AA isnt for everyone.

there are other programs people have tried them and drank again- take a read around here- the proof is here.
are those programs failures? do we say their success rate is low,too?

aliciagr

people have a right to make their own decision on this, dont you think?

FireSprite

The Surgeon General's report is great, but extremely preliminary in terms of actually identifying the ROOTS of addiction. (but it goes a long way in reducing the stigmas related to this whole topic) It also only approaches addiction from the perspective of substances - fully ignoring things like gambling or food addiction.

Look - any healthy brain subjected to alcohol and/or drugs over a period of time will show deterioration but none of that tells us how it all started before the damage was done. That's that part they can't identify - the ORIGIN. What is the medical difference between a true-blue alcoholic from birth & an alcohol abuser who develops a dependency through overuse? They do not know these answers just yet. And it's just *one* report - not enough to set the recovery world afire with universal solutions.

This report is a good thing, but far from complete. And pssst! One of the key findings is that "mutual aid groups" aka AA & NA are very effective in recovery & encourages physicians to refer their patients to such programs:

https://drgabormate.com/dr-gabor-mat...ction-america/

aliciagr

Good point Dandy. Even though my husband and I have chosen to use a more medical approach. We still incorporate faith because we have our own beliefs. And other things some might consider spiritual in nature are added in.. for example I was anxious over my dr appt last week and he suggested we do some guided imagery together. He walked us through this whole peaceful scene including the breathing exercises. Some might say it was spiritual. And in most medical settings now days, the whole patient is treated based on their own preferences and beliefs. There was something referencing this even at my obgyn appt last week. Its also about the whole family unit and how we are all affected in different ways .

I find it best to look at things loosely when I can. For example, when people use program talk at certain times and to them its spiritual changes.. I can see behavioral modification at work.. abstinence and altering ones own patterns of behavior by using the support resources for example. It doesnt matter how I look at things, or how someone else does if we both find a nugget of wisdom in there.

aliciagr

They also put value in family being a support system, family doing counseling together, etc.

Its all about an individualized plan to meet the needs of each specific patient.

FireSprite

I understand that. The original point on this report was that it made addiction "diagnosable" and I still disagree.

AnvilheadII

If a program continues to fail an overwhelming amount of people, do we look at the program or assume millions of people are not willing to follow it?

you've been to alanon, yes? sat in a few meetings. but it's quite fair to say you are far from CURED, or on the success spectrum.

so where lies the "failure"?

AA How it Works clearly states:

Rarely have we seen a person fail that has THOROUGHLY followed our path. Those who do not recover are those who cannot or WILL not give themselves to this simple PROGRAM, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves.

none of the 12 step programs tout any type of recovery rate. as an anonymous program with no membership lists or attendance rosters it would be IMPOSSIBLE to gauge.

i'm not sure why this thread has turned so negative, when you Smarmie started it by asking about ATTENDING Alanon and engaging in the program - and yet continue to turn this in to a discussion about your A and HIS condition.

Smarie78

If you are wondering how an anonymous program could keep tabs of their failure rate, then who exactly is keeping tabs of those recovered not failing because of their program? This is also saying that those who don't recover must be deeply flawed in some way and are delusional in self-honesty. The question I had was, is it possible the program failed those who have failed the program?

And to answer your other question - the original thread was asking about attending Alanon meetings and level of success. As Alanon being born out of AA, with some point in the nearly 4 pages of replies, AA was brought up as I would assume for Alanon to be successful, the success rate would be around the same as AA. If AA has a presumably low success rate (I'm looking at the vast majority of addicts bouncing in and out of rehabs that follow 12 step models), what does Alanon look like if one truly works the steps. Any better?

AnvilheadII

really? so done with this crap.

Smarie78

One interesting thing I find here is that the minute someone critiques AA/Alanon or the 12 Steps, it is seen as negative and met with hostility. I brought up the discussion to find out if physical attendance and step-working worked for those who were struggling. I got a bunch of great responses all around the meetings and what some took, and what some left. The conversation then went into the program itself, with a bunch of feedback on what others have experienced. The program is based on AA - AA was brought up and the conversation segued to that a bit. Then there was some debate on it. AA is a hotly debated program in general so it's not shocking that it comes up now and again on SR.

Earlier you decided to tell me I sounded like I've only been to two meetings simply because I noted my discomfort and disagreement with the concept outlined in Step 2. If there is a part of the program that I do not resonate with, that is my right. It doesn't mean I chuck the program or my interest in it all together. I was simply asking if there was success out there with the program as I seem to struggle with some of the ideas behind the steps that rely on...well, non-evidence based science. (*ducking from tomatoes*)

So I clearly struck a nerve, but as you said the beauty of it is that you are free to be done with the thread and not comment anymore